whysoserious
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Posts posted by whysoserious
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49 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:
Not sure where “he couldn’t skate” comes from.
If you watched him play it would have been abundantly clear
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5 hours ago, Baggins said:
When JB dealt him he was just a 5th round longshot without any guarantee. He was traded like 7 or 8 months after being drafted. If there was any certainty of Forsling becoming a top 4 d-man he would have been drafted long before the 5th round. He was a longshot years away and nothing more. Clendening was further along and at least had some NHL experience along with AHL success. The only real difference between Clendening and Forsling in Chicago was Clen was behind a contender D and barely had an NHL opportunity, while Forsling was behind a weaker Chicago team and had ample NHL opportunity to seize a regular spot. In the end both had run out of time in Chicago because of waiver elligibity. Personally I think it took Forsling being traded by Chicago and then claimed off waivers to finally have the penny drop and get it all together. Clendening was just another in a long list of players with AHL success that didn't translate to NHL success.
When Gustav Forsling was traded he was playing regular minutes in the SEL and coming off a strong world junior tournament. He was trending up as a prospect and easily would have gone 2nd round in a redraft. Clendening on the other hand was in his draft +4 season and on the brink of becoming waiver fodder because he couldn't skate.
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41 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:
Buying him out will only extend his negative affect, to the cap by 3 years, albeit at a lower hit. Reading up on him prior to trade: what we are seeing, is nothing new cause he was the same in Arizona; and the Twins definitely played a big role, in making this deal happen.
I have my doubts that the Sedins played that big of a role in getting this deal done. At that time when the Sedins joined the management team it was basically a PR play to distract from the fact that the GM that should have been fired years ago is still here. Benning was targeting OEL the previous offseason as well, this deal was going to happen with or without Sedins.
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51 minutes ago, VforVasili said:
I think you will find we gave up a first to dump several contracts, including Loui Eriksson. Taking OEL was part of that deal.
Not saying it panned out as the right thing to do, but please don't pretend he was the key to that deal. Dumping other players was the intent.
What you're saying doesn't make any sense. We gained zero cap space from this trade. OEL was absolutely key to the deal, Benning was targeting OEL the year prior as well. After the trade he described him as a number 1 defensemen who will play in all scenarios.
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On 10/28/2022 at 5:35 PM, gurn said:
Maybe when OEL isn't playing over 27 minutes in a game, his performance will improve, to meet some people's standards?
Maybe someone who's being paid like a top pairing defender should be able to handle a few games playing 27+ minutes. We're not even 10 games into the season and the workload is already too much?
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8 minutes ago, aGENT said:
These are Canuck problems, not OEL problems. He and Hughes are our only two, top pair capable D. That two management groups have so far failed to actually put competent, complementary players around either, is the problem.
It's amazing how many times some fans here will blame the player, and then watch the player go on to success elsewhere... Almost like the problem isn't the individual players...
Or do you need to see a few more examples?
All those problems are just the cherry on top. Again, the way he's skating and defending this year is not top pairing calibre. Seriously, which teams in the league would OEL actually play in the top pair? Certainly not on a good team.
I would be more than happy if OEL manages to find success elsewhere, because it would mean we got rid of that contract. Realistically though, that contract is absolutely unmovable.
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3 hours ago, aGENT said:
The list of players who haven't looked awful this year is REAL short. Peterson and......?
That's not an excuse. OEL was acquired to be one of the leaders of the team, and step up when things aren't going well. You're lying to yourself if you don't see that his skating has fallen off this season. It's possible that he's injured, as I think he did suffer a lower body injury in the offseason. But regardless, with injuries and age he's likely on the decline already. He's already overpaid, and not put in position on this team where we can even maximize his value. He's mediocre on the PK, not as a good as Hughes on PP, and used in a shutdown role that does not play to his strengths. I need to look into the cap implications, but I think realistically OEL is a buyout candidate. The fact that we gave up a top 10 pick for him is an absolute joke.
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12 hours ago, JohnTavares said:
So much juicy content in this thread.
This thread really shows you who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't.
This trade might be the worst trade in franchise history.
Torpedoing this core and acquiring an anchor for 7 years... all while giving up a top 10 pick.
Even people who don't know what they're talking about should know this trade was terrible.
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7 hours ago, aGENT said:
Yup, only legit top pair D we have, with Hughes out...laugh's on us...
That really says more about this roster than it does about OEL. OEL has looked awful this year and he still has 4 years left on his contract. At no point in time did this trade make any sense. Even ignoring his contract and his obvious decline in play, he's not the type of defensemen you target when you have Hughes on your team, both in terms of play style and handedness.
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3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:
6OA - Virtanen
24OA - McCann - attitude issues and is on his 5th team already. Shipped out by pit for nothing and given away for free by Toronto.
23OA - Boeser - a steal at 23rd - only the 10th highest scorer in that draft.. Boston had 3 consecutive picks in the 1st round and missed pretty much on all 3 inside the top 15
5OA - OJ - plagued by injuries. Sorry we had no dman in our system and tried drafting organizational needs.
5OA - Pettersson, shoulda taken Glass or Vilardi right?
7OA - Hughes - “Thats one small boy” another terrible gamble right?
You could literally do zero scouting and just use TSN draft rankings and end up with a similar group of players.
6OA - Ritchie
24OA - Kapenen
23OA - Konecny
5OA - Tkachuk
5OA - Villardi
7OA - Dobson
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1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:
I'd rather keep Demko for our rebuild. Goalies are hard to find and they tend to peak later in their careers. They also can play for longer periods of time. Demko looks like the type of goalie who can play at peak level into his mid to late 30's, we can have him for another decade.
Disagree, if we're going to actually rebuild there is no point keeping Demko. By the time the team is ready to compete, he will no longer be cost controlled. I say we take our chances that one of our goalie prospects develops or we get goalie through UFA or trade. Demko's probably at close to his peak value right now and we should sell high if we can. He'll also likely hurt our draft spot.
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4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:
Are you going to tell the Twins “Hey boys, so I know you want to win a cup, but we have other plans. We’re going to end your careers in a full on rebuild. Thanks for your years of service”
Benning tried slapping a cup contender together through UFA on shorter deals to try and win a cup for the Sedins. Eriksson was the only big contract handed out and that contract was lined up to last until the twins were 40 and likely would have retired. They retired early and we had no other choice but to slowly move the rest of the vets with any value, out. All of which didnt last another year in the NHL. At that point, who gives a f*** what Eriksson is making, hes stuck in a rebuild and if anything, you dont want production in a rebuild that may hamper your draft position, so its kind of a good thing he sucked offensively. Mind you he was deployed defensively primarily and wasnt put with the twins for all that much time.
Also I’m pointing out you guys are crying and complaining that after 8 years we are “nowhere”
I compared an 8 year span of which YOU brought up Dallas. It took them 7 f***ing years and one good draft to get to where they are now… which is still barely a playoff team and Dallas had 1 more win than us in 2019-20, they were barely a playoff team. They got lucky and when they got to the finals, they got absolutely smoked. Where were they the following year?
So let me get this straight, the years prior to the Sedins retiring, Benning was trying to put together a cup contender, despite us perpetually missing the playoffs and being bottom feeders in the league. Then after the Sedins retired, that's when the rebuild started despite us trading away multiple 1st round picks and signing aging UFAs and being capped out.
You talk about Benning as if he's an elite drafter, when there are other teams around the league that drafted similar quality group players in a shorter amount of time. We are in fact nowhere after 8 years, barely a playoff team with no cap space, no prospect pool and deficit of draft picks.
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1 hour ago, DSVII said:
Well I'm definitely getting the feeling you are discrediting that work, he assembled the team, when he joined he had to get the Sedins to buy into his long term plan and sign their UFA contracts with him.
Part of being a GM is hiring the experts who know their stuff, that's a feather in his cap. Benning had Weisbrod.
A low cap hit contract, even with an NTC/NMC is easier to move than an overpaid 3rd liner or overager which was JB's speciality. Even that ugly Garrison contract, NMC and all was moved for a 2nd round pick in Benning's first year, so that doesn't track.
I'll say it again, I'd rather have a veteran with a lower cap on an NTC and NMC like Jason Garrison at $4 mil than say, an OEL at $7.2 million. NTC/NMCs may handicap you with term, but Cap space is a premium and Benning's handicapped us in both Term and Cap Hit.
The Trades were also there to be made even with Kesler's restriction, Shea Theodore was a top D prospect Anaheim was willing to part with, but because FA/JB's mandate was to win now, he targeted Sbisa and Bonino instead.
Not to mention that OEL also has a NMC along with that ridiculous cap hit. Pretty sure if we look back at it JB has handed out a comparable amount of NTC/NMC, if not more. Players like Beagle, Rousell, Myers, Pearson were all given M-NTC, even Halak was given a NMC
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1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:
Lmfao Benning has only drafted and produced more NHL players than 80% of the rest of the league, without a generational player like McDavid and Matthews. Lmfao go do a bit of research and open your eyes a little bit. Even with Virtanen flopping and OJ being plagued with injuries, he has drafted an NHLer in almost every single draft up til 2020 which is still TBD and Jurmo is looking pretty solid right now.
Dallas had one good draft and look where they are? They also made playoffs twice in 8 years from 08-09 to 17-18 while drafting Heiskanen, Oettinger and Robertson in that span of time. Yet they are still barely a playoff team each year and that goes as far back as 08-09. We just started trying to rebuild without a full tear down and without a generational player since 2014-15, which was a stealth rebuild until the twins retired in 17-18, Benning wasnt moving out picks, he acquired a 1st and a 2nd just before the 2014 draft and drafted McCann. It wasnt until the Sedins retired that it was obvious Vancouver had to accept a rebuild. They signed bottom 6 vets with lots of experience primarily focusing on signing guys with cup experience to support the youth. JB didnt move a single 1st round pick until 2020.
So it was not obvious we needed a rebuild until the Sedins retired, yet that's when we started shipping out 1st round picks? Again, in 8 drafts Benning was only able to produce 3 real core pieces, while consistently missing the playoffs. We consistently shipped out picks and prospects for overpaid vets and replacement level waiver fodder. Most teams in the leagues are able to draft 3-4 good pieces in an 8 year time span, especially with so many high draft picks, I was simply using Dallas as an example.
Also, awfully convenient of you to cherry pick an 8 year time span in which only includes the draft + 1 year of the players mentioned. Let's ignore the fact that Dallas made the playoffs 3 out of the last 5 years after those players were picked, including a cup finals appearance.
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4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:
Well in all fairness, how about if all his picks didnt make it to the NHL and they were in the minors. Would that make you happy? A deep prospect pool with zero NHL players lol. Benning rebuilt this team through 5 years of drafting.
Demko
Boeser
Pettersson
Hughes
Podkolzin
sure he had a few misses, but EVERY GM has misses. He had waay more hits than misses
1 of his prospects got snagged on waivers and another one from the expansion draft.
Considering we had NO prospect pool, its hard to believe we have a worse prospect pool. If you look around, quite a few of our prospects are actually doing pretty well. They may not be top tier prospects, but they are having pretty strong starts to their seasons.
This is not rebuilding a team, in 8 years of drafting (with 5 top 10 picks) this supposed draft guru was only able to pick 3 impact players: Hughes, Pettersson and Demko. Dallas for example was able to do that in a single draft in 2017 with Heiskenen, Oettinger, and Robertson. JB's drafting was completely overrated, while being incompetent in pretty much every other area of GMing.
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51 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:
Sadly I was a JB fan - he always addressed the team needs. Sure, he made some rash decisions and handcuffed us with bad caps, but he was a great drafter and pulled the trigger instantly when we needed it.
Now we have the opposite - a conservative management team, bad draft history but great at cap management (although you could argue Miller and Mikheyev are big overpayments...).
I'd much rather have JB behind the wheel right now. Sadly Green cost him his job and he didn't have the guts to fire Green, so he gets canned instead.
JB right now would wipe this team clean, take on some bad contracts and load up on picks and prospects.
You got this part right about JB, I don't know about everything else.
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14 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:
This thread was going to be made by someone at some point so why not now?
5 games in and we're the worst team in the league, with some very solid teams coming up, we may end up with 1 or 2 wins in the first 10 games and it's pretty hard to come back from that. In what looks like a deep draft and with a team full of ageing veterans who simply aren't winning, I've got to ask - is this the time to sell and blow it up for a full, proper tank?
Firstly we have to decide which core we want to keep - you've got to think Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin and Demko are the main guys (23y, 23y, 21y and 26yrs old). There's a few mid to late 20 year old guys we could keep or sell, and a lot of late 20-30 year old guys we could easily sell to a playoff bound team. Here's what I think our players could get value-wise based on picks. Obviously we could convert that into prospect/player value.
Miller - he's obviously been trash this year but what would it get us if we moved him? Surely he doesn't have LE/negative value yet, but could we ask for a 1st round pick + prospect? We laughed at NYR for them considering to give us Lundqvist + 1st for him but I'd do that in a heart-beat right now.
Horvat - to be honest I'd be tempted to keep him around, he's 27 years old and can help pass the torch to the next generation, and give us a bit of stability in the middle. If we're picking high this year we're getting a top center who may play 3-4C minutes next year but Horvat can help groom them. I know his value would be high and we could get a great top defenceman if we traded him, but I'd rather build around Horvat, otherwise Petey is really going to get hammered.
Boeser - has to go. Got to think we get a 1st round pick for him, maybe even a prospect back as well (B grade?). Lots of teams will jump at him and I bet after a change of scenery he'll be the 30 goal guy he can be, but it's not happening on this team.
Garland - poor guy plays the right way but again is battling it in this team, I think we can get a late 1st or high 2nd rounder for him. Young age, good contract, should be an easy sell.
Mikheyev - doubt we trade him after just signing him, maybe next year, but that's a big contract for a fairly unproven guy so we might just have to live this one down and he'll become the next Pearson.
Pearson - if we advertise him as a 3rd line PKer, 3.2M isn't too bad but not many playoff teams have that cap space so we'd have to retain, could probably get a 3rd rounder for him if we're lucky and retain 25%?
Lazar - I'd keep him and he's our 3C for the next couple of years along with whichever rookie we draft next year.
Hoglander - I know he's still young but he hasn't shown much promise this year either, not sure if any team would want him but we might be able to package him with one of the guys above to sweeten a deal.
OEL - the big one, I'm sure some teams will take him, he's still got top LD potential, we might just have to retain 1M. If we really consider tanking hard the next few years I'd consider retaining 2M and flip him (at 5M) for a 1st and A-grade prospect.
Myers - as much hate as he gets on these boards, he's still a decent top-4 RD which is hard to come by, think he could nab us a 2nd round pick.
Poolman - probably not going anywhere but LTIR.
So based on that if we were able to somehow flip all of our decent vets/players, we'd get 3 x 1sts, 2 x 2nds and a 3rd round pick. Of course we're not going to be able to just get picks but might be able to find an equivalent prospect value-wise (eg. a former 2nd round pick young defenceman).
Take what we can and run to the draft this year.
Miller - No way we trade him after signing long term extension.
Horvat - Pending UFA, probably 1st + B prospect
Boeser - Negative value
Garland - probably a 2nd round pick
Mikheyev - Just signed, won't be trading.
Pearson - Negative Value
Lazar - More valuable to us than what we'd get in return, no reason to trade him
Hoglander - probably a similar prospect, I would want to hold on to Hoglander
OEL - Untradeable contract
Myers - Very little value this year, no team that could use him would have cap space for him
Poolman - Negative Value
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42 minutes ago, gurn said:
JR/PA have signed
Brock $6,650,000
Miller $8,000,000
Mikheyev $4,750,000
Lazar $1,000,000
Kuzmenko 850,000
Aman 883,750
$22,133,750 of money you can take $2,750,000 of, as Miller's deal kicks in next year for a total of $19,383,750 of cap space.
So cap space is not, entirely, a JB problem, anymore.
If we're looking at this season, Lazar, Kuzmenko, Aman all buriable. Miller's contract is already on the books. So the real spending was really the Boeser extension and Mikheyev signing. I personally liked the Mikheyev signing, did not like the Boeser extension at all and would have much rather they let him walk. I don't think he had much trade value in the offseason and certainly not much now. The Miller extension will very likely hurt us down the road, but what's hurting us in the present is signings like Pearson, Poolman, Dickinson, trading for OEL, dead cap from buying out Holtby and Virtanen, and Halak bonus. The cap space issue is very much a Benning problem.
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3 hours ago, Nathancanuck said:
I meant that regarding coaching decision.
And if you tell me you rather have 2013 team to take over than the team now then Idk what to say
Honestly maybe? At least that team had a clear direction of where it needed to go, a complete rebuild.
Contrast that to now, we're a middling team with huge holes to fill and no real way of filling those holes. It doesn't make sense to rebuild, there's not much avenue to improve the current team as we're capped out while running on a deficit of draft picks and one of the worst prospect pools in the league. Like I don't know if there's much the current management could have done this offseason. Benning left this team a huge mess and one offseason isn't going to be enough to fix it.
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38 minutes ago, Viper007 said:
You still can't be getting those type of players by selling assets. Teams that want to trade with you aren't teams that are tanking. They're teams that would be trying to load up for playoff runs.
Nobody said you could, but you can certainly bolster your core that way. If you're selling assets, accumulating futures, chances are you will put yourself in a position to get a top pick. Even if you don't, adding a few late 1st, 2nd even 3rd round picks (along with retaining our own picks) over the years would likely result in a few more players that can contribute to our roster. You accumulate assets, maintain cap flexibility and put yourself in a position to add players when it make sense.
Instead, we traded assets for players that didn't help the team, and to add insult to injury we gave them contracts that turned them into negative value assets.
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1 hour ago, Honky Cat said:
You could have finished dead last in the league and tanked for 10 consecutive years (proper rebuild) , and still not picked 1st or 2nd OA.
Pretty much all the players you listed but one.
That's certainly possible, but the probability of that happening is less than 1%. This is the same mindset as the "get into the playoffs and anything can happen". Sure, anything can happen, but that doesn't mean it will happen.
Besides, I don't think the point was that the team should be "tanking". The point is that we should have been selling assets and accumulating futures over these years instead of selling draft picks and signing aging UFAs. Over the last 8 years, did we even acquire a single player that can be considered a core piece through a trade or UFA signing?
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2 hours ago, Me_ said:
So basically a whole bunch of you think Benning is the village idiot. The builder of the exact same team you watched since Green left.
Well I’ll be damned.
Yes, because of what it cost to get the team to this point. We're a borderline playoff team that has a deficit of draft picks, weak prospect pipeline and little to no cap space. We basically need to rebuild the entire right side of the defense and none of our centers are signed long term. After all these years we should be on the upswing, but instead we're more likely to take a step back.
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32 minutes ago, Me_ said:
So you admit that other teams also often “miss out” on 1-6.
K
Yes, every team has misses. But, with all of Benning's ineptitudes he would have had to hit complete home runs in all those picks to be even considered an average GM, and that's being generous. If you based your pick on looking at a few mock drafts/rankings you would probably have a similar drafting record to Benning.
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Jim Bennings legacy without the OEL trade. Grade him out of 10.
in Canucks Talk
Posted
Of course him being poor defensively was also an issue. But, I don't know what to tell you if don't think his skating was an issue.