[Tyler Myers l #57 l D]

not a good signing thusfar but maybe he can turn it around. A lot of Jets fans though were happy to see him gone and we can kinda see why now

[The athletic projects the Canucks 26th overall?]

1 hour ago, iceman64 said:

Well it's media with their stellar opinions as usual.. this surprises you? It shouldn't.. 

How is this an opinion? It's a model.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

Are people seriously trying to argue that Virtanen is better than Ehlers/Nylander? Those two are elite first line forwards. Quite embarrassing that someone would even think Virtanen is better

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

1 hour ago, Fantomex said:

 

Disappointing to who? You? Or other fans with ridiculous expectations? He has 2 years of pro hockey under his belt. Arguably he shouldn't have been in the NHL that first year, but he was forced into the lineup. He spent last year in the AHL and by all accounts took great strides under the guidance of Travis and Nolan. This will be his 3rd year of pro hockey, but most of you want to write him off as a bust. Not every 6th overall pick comes into the NHL and produces great numbers. Kids take time to learn. Even Forsberg the Great spent a few years in the SEL developing. Ryan Smyth took a few years to develop. Mikko Koivu spent years in the Liiga developing. Derick Brassard, Viktor Kozlov, Milan Michalek, Scott Upshall, Mika Zibanejad - all 6th overall picks took time to develop. These aren't generational talents that just explode onto the scene. There are very few exceptions that do come in and make an immediate impact. 

 

Temper your expectations of what he should immediately be due to being a high draft pick. To say he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick in every way since being drafted is a downright lie.

He had a terrible draft +1 in the WHL, a terrible draft +2 in the NHL (albeit he was rushed, not his fault), a terrible world juniors, and a terrible draft+3 season. I have no idea how you can even write something like your last sentence and have anyone take you seriously. Of course he's been a disappointing 6th overall pick.  Jake needs to show progress in order to be taken seriously as a prospect. He hasn't. He came into last year out of shape, which is completely on him. He didn't take hockey seriously enough, obviously. He still has the same issues that he's had since junior, and the same thing that has plagued him at the professional level: he has little hockey IQ, at all. He doesn't put himself in good enough positions to be an effective offensive player, he doesn't drive a line, and the physical aspect of his game that was supposed to be his calling card has been missing since his Hitmen days.

Again, you are citing a couple very specific examples of players that actually panned out to be solid NHL'ers. However if you look at the list of comparable point producers from their first 3 years after being drafted, Virtanen's comparables show a player that is a bottom 6 forward rather than a top 6 guy. For every player like Doan or Bertuzzi that someone brings up, there are dozens of more players that didn't pan out. 

 

So many people are disappointing with Jake because not only has he been a disappointment in his own development, i.e producing offense at a poor AHL level, he also has been disappointing relative to his peers right after he was selected. I can't remember how many arguments I had with other Canucks fans after Jake was drafted arguing Ehlers/Nylander were too small, nothing special, would get pushed around etc. After drafting Boeser, Juolevi and Pettersson, 3 players who are extremely skilled and similarly built to Nylander/Ehlers, those people have changed their tune. 

[Elias Pettersson | #40 | C]

Lias Anderson (NYR), Erik Brannstrom (VGK), Timothy Liljegren (TOR), Sam Steel (ANA), Joran Kyrou (STL) were all fantastic today. Steel, Anderson, and Kyrou in particular. 

Petterson wasn't very noticeable. It is a summer game so who cares really but I would have liked to see him dominate against players his own age.

[Elias Pettersson | #40 | C]

1 hour ago, Ihatetomatoes said:

Anderson did look great, definitely a do it all kind of player, no real weaknesses. If he develops a high end offensive game he could end up being one of the better players drafted.

 

Liljegren I thought looked great at some points but made a few plays that made me understand why he fell so far. One point at the end of the game he had the puck on his stick and a defender right on him, instead of making a pass he blasted the puck right into the defenders shin pads and the puck bounced out. Another time the puck got dumped into his own end, it was a 1v1 battle to retrieve the puck and he literally just backed off and let the forward take the puck, he didn't even engage at all. That was a play I could see how scouts would have warning bells going off. That said he still dropped to far considering his talent.

 

Mittlestadt looks amazing when he has the puck. Such great quick hands and makes great cuts with the puck. Pretty invisible otherwise though, kinda reminds me of a Kessel or Cammerleri type player, amazing if they're scoring goals but useless otherwise.

I think this is a really good, fair post. 

 

Anderson may not have the high end skill of a Pettersson, but he showed he can snipe and play a really good complete game.

Completely agree with your assessment on Liljegren. It's clear he is very, very raw. But the tools as you mentioned talent wise are too good to ignore. You can coach out those bad plays out of him, but the elite skating, shot and hands/passing are impossible to teach.

I agree with the Kessel/Mittlestadt comparison. It's a good one. I think Casey doesn't have the shot that Phil does, but the playmaking, speed, and vision is there. He's very raw defensively. 

[Elias Pettersson | #40 | C]

Petterson is playing on the third line with Bratt and Karlstrom in 10 minutes vs Canada.

[Elias Pettersson | #40 | C]

5 hours ago, DS4quality said:

I thought this was fairly accurate. He wasn't outstanding yet, the puck followed him a quite a bit, he was in on a lot of the offensive zone plays when he was on the ice.

Yeah he was clearly dealing with something, he's not at 100% but still looked decent. 

Off topic but Casey Mittelstadt (BUF), Lias Anderson (NYR) and Timothy Liljegren (TOR) looked really, really good. Three standouts for me.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

42 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I would rather we kept Jake though, and see what he becomes for us.  Trading him would not be a good idea IMHAO. 

it would be a terrible idea. You wouldn't get much for him anyway. Keep him, coach him, and hope it works out.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

16 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Age is not the only factor. You're totally ignoring the natural development curve. All those players may have entered the NHL after turning 20 but, as I pointed out, they progressed every year for the most part regardless of what level they were at (college, junior, AHL). If Jake stayed in junior for both years after being drafted and improved his numbers each year, then had a decent AHL rookie campaign (or even the same one he had this season), it'd be a whole different story.

 

What if Virtanen put up literally zero points every year in his D+1, D+2 and D+3 years? Would you still say "he's only 20 and still has a lot of time to grow"?

 

Now obviously he's put up more than zero points, but he's clearly been on the bad side of production line, and again that is concerning given the typical development curve we see from most successful NHLers.

And again, even if the examples given of Neely, Bertuzzi, Primaeu were accurate, those are cherrypicking the very best case scenerios for Virtanen. There are hundreds of examples of players that put up similar numbers to Virtanen (thus far, he can still turn it around of course) and don't amount to much at the NHL level. In fact, given his production so far, it's far more likely he turns out to be a 4th liner than he is to become a Bertuzzi/Neely type player. That isn't hating on Virtanen, that is using comparables to judge that there is a far greater likelihood of Virtanen being a 4th liner than Bertuzzi just by the shear numbers of his closest production comparables. 

Take a look at Oskar Lindbolm, Philly prospect taken in the same draft as Virtanen (http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=86181) same age as well.

HIs production suggests he is much more likely to become a top 6 forward than Virtanen. Point being for every Bertuzzi, there is 10 or more powerforwards that don't pan out. 

[Elias Pettersson | #40 | C]

Just now, 87Crosby said:

lmao. that's all. 

it's the truth. We clearly didn't value elite skill at the time, or we would have taken Nylander.

Petterson has elite skill. Overjoyed to see them take this direction.

[Elias Pettersson | #40 | C]

1 minute ago, The 5th Line said:

This just makes the Virtanen pick look that much worse.  We could of had Nylander + Glass now we have Petterson + Virtanen

exactly this, wish we had Nylander but lets just be happy that we see the franchise values elite skill over "meat and potatoes" 

[[GDT] 2017 NHL Entry Draft]

2 minutes ago, BananaMash said:

Excellent pick.

 

Petterson has the highest ceiling outside of the top two for forwards in my opinion.

completely agreed.

[Elias Pettersson | #40 | C]

Said this would be a good pick from a long time ago.

Great to see the Canucks chose skill over size. That's what lead us to take Virtanen over Nylander. 

This is great. Ecstatic. 

[Olli Juolevi | #48 | D]

Rewatching some of the Knights games recently, I can't help but notice how good Victor Mete is (100th overall, MTL 2016). I'm beginning to question who is the better defenseman between Mete and Juolevi, and talking to some of the Knights fans and season ticket holders they were about equal this season. 

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

10 hours ago, Zhukini said:

I don't really see how this part is debatable, Jake is not great at processing the game at the NHL level, up untill this point in his career. Doesn't mean he can't be a good player though. 

 

The way you think the game, unlike how fast you get or how strong you become is more along the lines of you have it or you don't. 

Jake can still be an effective player, if he limits himself and plays to his strengths of skating fast, hitting hard, and occasionally making a pass that isn't as hard as a shot. 

 

Not everyone needs to think the game like Crosby to have success but let's not pretend he doesn't have his problems with it

Disagree. I haven't seen many players develop hockey IQ over time. It's either something you have, or you don't. Virtanen doesn't. 

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

9 minutes ago, 2011 said:

Ok, I looked back and re-read the 1st 2 pages.  NOT 1 PERSON SAID THEY WOULD RATHER PICK NYLANDER. 

Sure Ehlers, Dal Colle, and Ritchie came up, but the point is; You cant go around telling other people to go look back at this or that,when you didn't do it yourself. 

 

 

I get where you are coming from, but Nylander played in the 2nd tier of swedish hockey for more than half of the draft year. People on CDC wouldn't have seen him because nobody really watches 2nd tier swedish hockey. It's part of the reason he fell to 8 when he's likely a top 2 talent. that's on the scouts of every team who passed on nylander because they get paid the big bucks to watch these guys.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

18 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Put 30 pounds of potatoes on anyone's back.  Then have them run up five flights of stairs, and immediately solve math problems.  Even the most talented mathematicians will have troubles.  Jake was a fatty.  He will be fine now.  No team with William Nylander will ever win a Stanley Cup.  Don't be too shocked if the Leafs trade your boy.  

And the Canucks will never win in Vancouver. Fun to use crystal balls isn't it? I like talking using facts, not hypotheticals.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

2 minutes ago, Hemsky said:

Nylander won MVP at the WHC today. Great first season in the nhl and continued international success. He could have been a canuck. Daily reminder. 

how dare that name be mentioned in this thread! Nylander doesn't have an ounce of the heart that Virtanen does! All Nylander does is produce offense at an elite pace! /s

be prepared to be endlessly told how useless Nylander will be in the playoffs my friend. Happens everytime Nylander gets brought up as if people on CDC can predict that an elite hockey player won't produce in the playoffs somehow.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Anyone in today's hyper speed game would appear to have low IQ if they were fat.  

Virtanen's low hockey IQ goes beyond poor fitness. He doesn't think the game in the same way other picks around him do. Ehlers, Draisaitl, Reinhart, Nylander all have elite hockey IQ and can drive offense. Plays die on Virtanen's stick quite frequently, and I can't remember how many times he skates in and aimlessly shot it at the goalie's crest. Or in the World Juniors with Canada on the powerplay, he takes a stupid penalty to negate the man advantage. Or his poor use of his team mates in general. It's the primary thing holding him back and has been a problem his whole career, a major reason guys like Button had him ranked in the 2nd round.

 

Speaking of Nylander, he just won MVP of the world championship. Gonna regret that pick for the next 10 years atleast. shame.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

9 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

Jake's rookie year was unspectacular but it was certainly something to build off of, especially his play after the WJC. 

I expected him to go to the AHL and score around 25 goals, 20 assists, similar numbers to Darren Archibald. Not exactly light the world on fire but show the offensive potential of a 6th overall pick. 

 

I still think he will be an NHL player, but likely in the bottom six. I'd be happy if he turned into a "Physical 15" 3rd liner, similar to guys like Torres, Cooke, were for us. Even at the draft, I saw Virtanen becoming a Cal Clutterbuck type player. I expected him to bust as a top six scorer, but more than make up for it with his speed and hitting. Maybe not a great pick at 6th but a valuable nhl player nonetheless. 

The big red flag in your post is you saw Cal Clutterbuck in Virtanen at the draft. I have no idea why anyone would ever draft a player like that at 6, especially when guys with huge ceilings like Ehlers and Nylander are available, both look like superstars.

[Olli Juolevi | #48 | D]

16 hours ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

He made the 3rd team. Who cares what the OHL thinks, the guy is a stud.

 

Keep in mind that Olli kept the same statistics on a team that went from having 3 players hit over 100 points (121,116,107), to the top 3 players having less than 90 (86,72,66). That is progression.

If he made the 1st team, OHL MVP, CHL MVP, was named best CHL D, etc etc we would all care. 

[Olli Juolevi | #48 | D]

OHL all star teams released. Juolevi didn't make either the 1st or 2nd team. Sergachev made the 2nd team.

Confirms what most of us thought, Juolevi didn't really take a big step forward this season.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

27 minutes ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

Quality of competition does diminish Nylanders walking the line, somewhat.  although it is impressive, could he do it against a team not named Buffalo, or even Buffalo again. 

 

If he can do that again when teams are expecting it, that will be truely impressive. That is what separates the good from great. Good is making moves that work when no one expects it, great is when everyone knows what you are going to do, but can't stop you. 

 

A lot of rookie players pull off some impressive shows of skill and puck handling, it takes a few years to prove that they can do it when they choose. 

 

EW

Fair enough. Nice having a reasonable discussion without getting flamed.
 

5 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

Well, you are certainly not a Canucks fan. You are apparently here for the sole purpose of trolling Canucks fans. Have you ever said anything positive about ANY member of the Canucks organization? You drool so much over Nylander that you seem to be sitting in a puddle of Maple Leaf flavoured slime.

Look through my post history. I've said plenty positive about the Canucks. I'm as big a fan as you are. I like the future of this team. I just think Virtanen wasn't a good pick, and saying stuff like "Nylanders and Ehlers come around every draft" is the dumbest thing I've read on these forums.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

17 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

It was a pretty impressive play.  He dangled a guy along his own blueline (which is a high risk play) that takes a lot of confidence to know you are going to, drew in 3 defenders to him and in a split second he got the puck back onto his stick and found the wide out Matthews. 

 

That's a skill set we haven't developed on this team,  it's a skill set that we are hoping to find in this years draft (that's why JB want's a playmaking center).  Nylander today is clearly the better and more impact player.  There is zero chance TO would make a trade straight up for each player.....But Jake has the abilities and skillset to turn that around, into another player that this team needs.  Will he ever get there? for canucks sake, we all hope so, a big goal scoring Power forward would be huge for this team. 

 

It shouldn't be Jake vs Will.  Two different players.  Something Nylander does shouldn't be taken as a negative towards Jake, and same goes the other way. With that said, things Nylander does shouldn't be posted in a Virtanen thread without some intention of trolling. 

This is a good post. Dangling someone at your own blue line is the most risky play in hockey. It's a breakaway if it doesn't work out. That's why Nylander is so special, he has the confidence and skill to make the play. 

 

And I completely agree with the bolded. My video post wasn't intended to troll. It was just to counter the point that you can find players like Nylander in every draft. It's not possible