[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

19 hours ago, Squamfan said:

 

 

 

 

nobody on the canucks can do this to, so were eqauly

 

 

 

 

Any 4th line plug can hit. Matt Martin routinely is a top hits leader and it doesn't really matter much on the scoreboard. Assists like Nylander's as shown as gamebreaking plays because goals win games, hits don't. There are maybe 4-5 players that can make the play Nylander made. There are hundreds that can hit like that. It's not really a big deal. And by the way, when Virtanen was up here, he wasn't hitting much, and he wasn't scoring. He isn't doing it in the AHL either.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

18 hours ago, Bandwagon38 said:

And against Buffalo none the less! Unfortunately he won't be facing Buffalo in the playoffs...and the last Nucks game I saw Boeser and Goldy make a cross ice pinpoint passes.  One for a Goal and one for a great save.  Just saying that your attempt at knocking off the Canucks rose colour glasses is thwarted by not being able to see past you own.

Maybe try a Toronto discussion board.  Funny how in you first year of relevance TO fans become so emboldened.  Don't care about TO players and never will.

1. I'm not a Toronto fan. Get that straight. 
2. Boeser and Goldobin don't have the skill to nutmeg NHL players at their own offensive blue line. 

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

10 hours ago, Bobby_Lu1ngo said:

Its true. We will have to judge these players in the playoffs too. Regular season stats are good and grand and all but we all know the playoffs it all changes. Players get away with a whole lot more. The games become much more of a battle of grit and grind. Less open ice and more chippy stuff. Loya of these skill players disappear. Virtanen has a style that I believe will be awesome in the playoffs.

 

And I really do like Ehlers and Nylander. But I am still excited about Jake.

 

I think he will need a few NHL seasons to put it together fully. Jake at 23 or 24 with his full strength could be crazy. When the game slows down a bit for him and he plays smarter hockey he could be a great top 6 forward as well.

This is a play Nylander made yesterday:

Look at how he nutmegs the defender on the blueline, then makes a pinpoint pass right to Matthews. Nobody currently in the canucks organization has this level of skill, let alone the confidence to pull it off. If Nylander even misses the nutmeg by a little bit, its a breakaway for the other team. This is what you can't teach, and this is why you always draft Nylander/Ehlers over Virtanen. For unteachable plays like this he makes every game.

 

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

1 hour ago, bohoforpresident said:

You must be European.

 

The comments about those players were tongue in cheek not to say they aren't good players....

 

But I honestly believe players like them are in every draft year. And there is definitely star players in every draft.The thing you aren't taking into account is that more players are starting to be able to come into the NHL and produce at a young age. Its going to be more and more common players putting up those points when they first come in. Development is just that much better. But still not all players. Plus playing with generational talent (which Ehlers/nylander aren't) and first line players couldn't hurt their stats...

 

You have your opinion on what you like to see a team built around and I have mine... But I prefer players with grit and the strength to back it up

 

It wasn't salty at all thats just how you chose to read it. You have a salty mind.

But what do you mean like there are players like them every draft. Show me a list of players that have produced at the level of Ehlers and Nylander and come back to me. There are hundreds if not thousands of players that put up Virtanen's numbers numbers and make up the show. I can guarantee with almost 100% certainty that players int he last 10 years that have put up 60 points in their 20 year old seasons like Ehlers/Nylander have, have gone on to be superstars at the NHL level.

And of course you are being salty. You called them daisy pickers. That's out of jealousy or a complete lack of understanding for the game. It's an insult. 

My question to you is, is Juolevi a daisy picker? Because he is soft, doesn't throw hits, and plays a very European game. Guess we should have traded that pick for Lawson Crouse then because he hits a bunch of people? People who think like you are the exact reason people pick Tyler BIggs over Rakell, Lawson Crouse over Kyle Connor, Nick Ritchie over David Pastranak, and Jake Virtanen over Nylander and Ehlers.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

On 4/2/2017 at 5:38 AM, bohoforpresident said:

One day Jake is going to run those daisy pickers Nylanders and ehlers through the boards. No problem with the pick at 6. Jake's goals since he went pro have been few and far between but when you look at the goals he has scored, it's obvious why he was picked.

The kid just needs to find his consistency. If he can score even twenty goals a season and staple those thin bearded eurotrash players Nylander and Ehlers to the glass everytime we play them...I'm more than happy. 

 

 

Jake is looking fast.. His first goal tonight.. look at the seperation he creates to get a clear 2 on 1. Almost put himself offside lol. Wheels on wheels. A hard shot and he likes to pick corners. And the kid likes to hit. 

 

Of course everyone is entitled to post whatever their opinion is (as long as it's within the forum rules)... But it is very annoying when people are doing a redraft after every single year....

 

seriously though players like Ehlers and Nylanders turn up in every draft year... Dainty little Europeans with finesse... You cant have every player. We all know the best players are homegrown

 

 

 

 

There is so much salt in this post. First off, how many 20 year olds have produced at the same clip as Nylander/Ehlers? Hardly any. All of them are star players. How can you say they come up through every draft?

If you are using that type of logic, there are hundreds of Virtanen type players availible through the draft, because his AHL production is so bad its comparable to career AHL'ers/4th line plugs.

 

I don't understand the need to constantly put down Nylander/Ehlers in order to prop up Virtanen. Both Nylander/Ehlers look like superstars and people like you are still defending the Virtanen pick? 

And also, finesse, "daisy pickers" like Kane/Kessel/Panarin/Gaudreau seem to be key components of some damn good teams. Stamkos is roughly the same size as Nylander, and I doubt anyone would call him small. Your post is just so salty, it's almost embarrassing. 

If you are going to say things like Nylander/Ehlers come every draft, back up your opinion. Show me a list of players that have put up ~60 points in their rookie season at 20 years old. I doubt you'd find many. I can find you hundreds that replicate Virtanen's production.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

19 hours ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

I would say wait 2 more years to give Virtanen a shot at being compared to Willie Nyls. There is a good chance JV starts the season in Utica next year, which may not be a bad thing.

Nylander will also get better. He's a star right now. Only a matter of time until Babcock turns him into a superstar.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

2 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

As of now WN has one goal and 7 more assists than Baer.  Both a players that rely on skill, both play alot of left wing.  Very Comparable.  Far more comparable than Jake and WN.  

 

Drafted 3 years apart, the age gap is there, but it's not outrageous They play the same roles and there is not a lot of difference, other than age, between them.  One was had for a 2nd rounder and the other was a top ten pick. 

 

 

I did not say I would take Jake at six in a redraft, but I would not take WN.  Larkin, Pasternak and Ehlers, absolutely, but I do not like Joffery, and will never like Joffery. 

 

What I was getting at was Baer fills the same role on the Canucks as WN does on the leafs. Not as productive, but the team as whole isn't productive. Baer was had for a second round pick. 

 

If Jake can be rounded into form, he will fill a much different role that cannot be found for a second round pick. 

 

EW

You are assuming though that at this stage Nylander is a finished product as well, and comparing him to a finished product in Baer. It just doesn't make sense. 

If Nylander can round into form (and he's actually doing it in the NHL unlike Jake) then he's a 80 point C/RW. That is impossible to find, much harder than a Virtanen type.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

1 hour ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

I am not saying you are wrong to like Nylander.  I do not, and did not think he was the player to go with and still don't. As you alluded too, Baer is in Nylanders spot on our team, plays a better two way game and was had for a second round pick. So without drafting a top ten pick we already have a very comparable player to Nylander that plays a more complete game. 

 

IMO WN is a player that needs other really good players to be good. He cannot play defence and IMO will fold like a cheap tent in a tough physical series. A player that is suited to the east but would get eaten up in the west. 

 

So even with poor early returns on Jake, I would still take him in the draft over WN.  Not over Ehlers, who was my pick going into the draft, or Larkin, or Pasternak.  

 

 

EW

 

Comparing Sven and Nylander really isn't comparable though. Nylander is on pace to DOUBLE Bae's career high in points in only his ROOKIE season. Takeaways, shot supression, also show Nylander is a better two way player than Bae so no clue where you get that from.

That's like saying the Ducks have a comparable player to Bo in Vermette, or that Detroit have a similar player to Tanev in Smith, or that Toronto has a similar player to Virtanen in Martin. Bae and Nylander are on completely different tiers of players. 

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

Just now, J.R. said:

I'm not declaring him a finished project. He'll almost certainly continue to improve. I don't know how you can argue he hasn't had a better development path and hence is further ahead. I thought that's what most of you were complaining about? Lol

"Closer to being a finished product" is what you said. I just don't understand how you can tell anyone what Nylander's ceiling is right now. Nylander is on pace for almost 60 points in a checking role as a rookie. For all we know he could be a 75-90 point centerman/winger in his prime. He's showed that improvement his whole career. Virtanen on the other hand has gotten worse year over year, at best stagnated. What evidence is there to suggest he'll get that much better when his history suggests his development has stalled/regressed...he might be closer to his ceiling than Nylander is.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

If Nylander and Virtanen where clay sculptures, the artist creating them would be putting the finishing touches on Nylander. Virtanen would be like an amorphous blob of clay still.

 

Yippee for Nylander, he got started sooner and he's closer to a finished product. 

 

I'm not so sure what's so difficult to understand about those of us willing to be patient? Are the other guys presently ahead? Yup. Were they always likely to put up more points? Yup. Has Virtanen matured and developed at a slower pace so far? Yup. 

 

Is it still FAR too early to declare any of them final products? Yup.

I don't understand how you can say this with so much certainty though...Nylander might be at the same stage of his development as Virtanen is. Virtanen's ceiling may just not be as high as Nylander. For all we know Nylander is just getting started.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

10 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

Yes, yes, Ehlers and Nylander are putting up regular season points. 

 

Still, a team is more than the sum of its parts - and a part like Virtanen is both elusive to find and highly effective in the playoffs.  A physically dominant, 2-way winger who can pound opposing defence on the forecheck and score clutch goals with eite speed and great shot can tilt the ice in a 7 game series.  He has a long ways to go to hit that ceiling but it's still attainable.  

 

Wasn't a bad pick at the time and can still turn out to be a great asset for the franchise.  Hand wringing and whining from the usual suspects aside.

Virtanen isn't a physically dominant 2 way winger who can pound opposing defence on the forecheck and score clutch goals with eite speed and great shot can tilt the ice in a 7 game series.

Suggesting that is like saying Ehlers/Nylander can be Kane, but they aren't there yet. 

 

Nothing suggests Virtanen will be the player you describe, at all. The Virtanen I watched since his draft isn't very physical and wasn't good defensively. Virtanen has a major IQ problem that can't just be solved or taught. Fortunately Juolevi/Boeser don't have that issue.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

Just now, Alflives said:

Well, if you drink up the blue and green koolaide then you could choose Jake too.  

Im curious what Jake's value in trade would be right now?  Is he worth a second?

Not really. He's probably worth a 5th.

Better off just keeping him, no point in selling low. It would make Benning look like a fool, and of course the chance that that pick becomes better than Virtanen is slim.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

Just now, J.R. said:

 

Like this 

 

And FWIW, I didn't really 'compare' them.

"If we can pick a few players like Nylander". LIke that's so easy, Nylander outproduced the Sedins in the Swedish League and is looking like a star in the NHL.

Virtanen's comparables at this point are 4th liners and AHL'ers. Nylander looks like a star. I don't see how anyone could possibly choose Virtanen at this point.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

14 hours ago, J.R. said:

Already covered Ehlers. 

 

Because I still think it likely there's a good NHL player in there. 

 

Unlike a lot of CDC I'm not worried, like at all,  about 'RIGHT NOW!'

 

I'm happy to give him a couple years to figure it out. 

 

I think we can pick more players like Nylander in the next few years and we already have Baer, and Boeser coming along but we don't have other Virtanen's.

How can you compare Baer and Nylander with a straight face? That's like saying Toronto has a Virtanen in Matt Martin or Edmonton has a Virtanen in Kassian

[Brock Boeser | #6 | RW]

4 hours ago, DeNiro said:

They did early in the season, maybe that's changed.

They play on separate lines now, but yes earlier in the season they did.

[Brock Boeser | #6 | RW]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Your points about Boeser maybe not becoming the player we all hope for is exactly why JB should have kept (and used) those 12 picks he traded away.  Then we might have two or three Boesers, and a better chance of one of them turning out.  

Yeah completely agreed. I really like the way Minnesota has built their prospect pool for example. Kaprizov is likely the best prospect in the NHL and be was a late round pick. Sokolov was too. Abramov on Columbus was another fantastic pick. Tampa bay getting all those guys on the Canadian world juniors team late in the draft is another. Nicholas Roy on Carolina and Andrew Nielsen on Toronto as well. 

 

 Just to be clear I'm not saying Boeser won't be a star, I'm just saying he has very obvious flaws that alot of people I see here overlook and assume will just correct themselves. 

 

[Brock Boeser | #6 | RW]

1 hour ago, UTICANUCK said:

Watched Brock last night and a few times this and last year as CBS sports carries college hockey and likes ND State.  Definately a very good prospect, but right now he isn't even the best player on his team.   I don't see him sucessfully walking into the NHL at this time.  Call me a bit skeptical, but I've seen many prospects with high expectations fall by the wayside.  This board has us believing that Cole Cassels might skip Utica and go directly to Vancouver.   There are only a handful of guys that can do it (Bo is one) and it's a shame the draft position didn't fall the Canucks way last year - Matthews or Laine would have been two excellent can't misses.  I like what I have seen of Brock, but I wouldn't call him a sure thing.  Just my opinion.

People are just setting themselves for disappointment because most don't actually watch him play, they just look at the points he puts up and watch the highlights on YouTube or Twitter of his goals. 

 

I got laughed at for saying that he wouldn't go top 15 in a redraft in the summer. Fact is Boeser doesn't drive offense well, has skating issues, and goes missing. Of course he can fix those flaws but when I see like on the trade and proposals section that people would rather have Boeser over Gaudreau you just gotta shake your head. 

 

He absolutely has star potential but many here just disregard his flaws and assume he's a sure fire top line forward. 

[Brock Boeser | #6 | RW]

2 hours ago, nergish said:

It's a crapshoot man, you have no better insider knowledge than anyone else. 

But Brock is definitely more well-rounded, and honestly a better offensive weapon than Jake. I'm neither for nor against having him in the NHL next year, but he is a fantastic player and will be given every opportunity.

Jake has been disappointing, but his physical tools are worth putting time into. We're doing that now. 
Brock is a gifted player, and his ceiling is much higher than Jake's, but of course literally anything is possible and he could be a zero in the bigs... but nobody on earth knows what the future holds. Let's wait 'til then.

He quite literally IS one of the best players outside of the NHL. But outside and inside are indeed two very different things. Either way, we've got a player here, and it's exciting.
He needs to get out of his slump though!
 

Boeser has major skating issues and doesn't drive offense as we are seeing now. 

 

He's a good prospect don't get me wrong, but the way he's talked about here you'd think he's the next Kane. Boeser has the issue of going invisible as well. I just remember how many people here said he was going to be better than Marner and Aho, and how he would go top 5 in a redraft. expectations like that are just setting Brock up for failure. Once again he's a good prospect, but with some quite obvious flaws that may prevent him from being a star in the NHL. 

 

As for the best u23 player outside the NHL the only answer really is Kaprizov. He's going to break Tarasenko/Panarin/Kuznetsovs PPG pace and was incredible at the world juniors. 

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

2 hours ago, ken kaniff said:

Look at Andrew Ladd's development. He didn't start doing well until 5 years after his draft year. Players take different routes to develop. Just got to be patient with Jake and hope for the best. 

 

I see Jake as a Dustin Brown lite 20-30G scorer. Or at least a Raffi Torres type bottom 6 player

I don't think 20 goals is unreasonable for his prime. The problem I think people have with the pick is at picking #6 hockey IQ is the most important skill you look for, and unfortunately Virtanen just doesn't have it and its an unteachable skill.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

11 hours ago, GettinGuddyWithIt said:

 CDC, where people call a 20 year old a bust. He has been misused and he hasn't matured. Not everyone is a Horvat. Let's wait a few years to make an accurate assumption. 

 

Heck the Sedins would be labeled as busts by the time they were 20 and look where they are now.

 

 

 

Patience.

History shows however that players who in their draft+3 season put up numbers similar to Virtanen's don't amount to much. For Virtanen, it's always been the same issue. Great tools (skating, shooting, hitting) but his IQ is very substandard. Scouts said it was going to severely limit him, and so far it has. 

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

7 hours ago, Caknuckle Puck said:

I love watching you guys cry over a Friggen 20 yearold... LOL holy &^@#kkkking shiiiiittt... you guys are throwing him under the bus and it's not even the end of the season, he's learning the game... If anything Vancouver fans are at fault for heckeling him and hoping he fails (I don't know why) 

How about you give him some time with green and another season or 3 to figure it out, he has the tools we've seen it, give it some time you sad apples

 

The problem was he was not the best player available at the time we drafted him, and now its showing. Alot of canucks fans were upset with the pick at the time and they are looking more and more right, especially for the vocal majority that wanted Nylander. Virtanen looks like he is trending down while guys like Nylander and Ehlers look like steals when we passed on them.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

7 hours ago, RyIe said:

 

Someone like Alex Nylander?

Why would Buffalo do that?

Alex Nylander is a much better prospect than Virtanen. Virtanen doesn't have much value, something similar to Yakupov is probably what he'd fetch. He has disappointing everyone since his draft, GMs see he can't produce.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

1 hour ago, Crabcakes said:

Ya, he's a shorter version of Mich Marner.  If you're that small, your skills have to be exceptional.  Merely good, and he stays in the AHL.

 

Besides, the Canucks are short on size up front.  Horvat would be the only one over 200 lbs who gets more than 4th line minutes.  This is why there was the internal debate (we assume) on whether to keep Virtanen up or do what was right and send him down to develop.

 

 

Sorry I don't think he is really close to Marner. Marner is a first overall talent and looks like the next Kane/Giroux. Valk is much more of an uncertainty and doesn't really have the high end skills Marner has.

[Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW]

1 hour ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

Did anyone see the game last night? how did he look?

 

 

Didn't really do much.

[Olli Juolevi | #48 | D]

22 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

 

Button's opinion is usually garbage. Comparing him to McDavid at that stage was especially a stretch.

 

I didn't say people weren't predicting for him to go first overall, I said that he wasn't considered a franchise defining centerman before his draft year.

He was though, there were many pundits/scouts that said he could be a franchise talent. He put up better numbers than Patrick Kane in the US program. I'm not saying I disagree with your overall opinion, but special players like Matthews generally don't shoot up in potential over a year.