HighOnHockey
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You're not getting enough value in either move.
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1 hour ago, J.I.A.H.N said:
Well, let me throw another curve ball at you............
First off, I am not crazy about moving Rathbone, it is only if we get a 2/3 RHD that I am in favor of it.......
But I wonder, with LA's riches, if they would consider something else.............
So, I will ask you this.............where would Faber rank in this years draft, in terms of upside/ceiling (Just in regards to RHD) such as Nemec/Jiricek/Chesley etc.........
Lol that's tough, but fun. I'll go Nemec, Jiricek, Luneau, Casey, Faber, Chesley, Nelson.
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1 hour ago, Nigerian said:
Who are the prospects??
L.A.'s RHDs? Well they already have Doughty, Matt Roy, Sean Walker as regular NHLers. Now Durzi, then Jordan Spence, Helge Grans, Brandt Clarke, and Brock Faber.
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3 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:
I would work on a deal like..............
LA ..........Faber
for
Van.........Rathbone +
Let's see what @HighOnHockey thinks about that
Lol, I just replied to Alf before I saw your post. It would be smart for L.A. to take advantage of this scam they're running on the league at the draft here. Loading up on high-end RDs to expose a market-inefficiency. The league and its fans have gone ape$&!# over the "perfect 3 and 3 LH/RH split" ever since Mike Babcock picking Vlasic and Bouwmeester for Olympics.
Every coach has to have it. L.A. has a ridiculous wealth of top-four calibre young RHD and RHD prospects. IF they could land a Rathbone plus a second or third round pick to acquire a LHD, they should be all over that. If I'm Vancouver, I'm not sure I'd do that. So we look at maybe a 3rd? And where does it break down between the two teams?
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4 hours ago, Alflives said:
Nope. @HighOnHockey might know would be a fair trade for Rathbone, that fits that mold.
If we trade Rathbone I wonder if that effects McDonnough’s signing with us?
This is not a manoeuvre I would endorse at this time. All too often defensive-oriented means limited upside. Even options I really like, Brock Faber, Jokiharju, Fabbro/Carrier, Ethan Bear, if you could get them, probably don't have Rathbone's offensive upside. We can debate how likely it is he may emerge as a Fox or DeAngelo, but I'd rather give it a couple years and see. Even if the argument is we already have Hughes in a similar capacity, if he does break out as a 50 point-scorer, then you trade him for exponentially greater value. 40 points in 38 AHL games at 22 is &^@#ing bananas.
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Couple fun prospect notes for the Sharks.
Reilly Walsh with his first NHL game and had an assist the other night.
Last year I called Fyodor Svechkov the most clutch player in the draft. In game five of the MHL finals, with the series tied at two, Svechkov scored the opening goal and the game winning goal. He had another goal in a blowout loss in game six, and in game seven he assisted on the first two goals of the game in an eventual 3-2 win to clinch the championship.
After seemingly everyone and their grandma had written off Sasha Chmelevski, he has 8 points in 19 games since being called up after trade deadline. Drafted as an offensive dynamo, he's put in work in the AHL to develop his two-way game, and since his call-up he's been playing a regular shift on the Sharks' PK.
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2 hours ago, HKSR said:
From Ottawa's perspective, how highly rated is Zub? Would there be something possible around Boeser for Zub?
Sens fans are &^@#ing nuts over him. Outstanding defensive defenseman who can move the puck too. Someone else here mentioned him, and I pointed out that RD is at least as much of a need for Ottawa as it is for Vancouver. I don't really see a fit there.
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Lol, speaking of Halttunen, he just had the tying goal against Canada with a minute and a half left. Joakim Kemell with the winner 30 seconds into overtime, to complete the hat trick. And Canada is done.
As I said coming in, maybe the worst team Canada has ever sent to this tournament. I was particularly disappointed with Rieger Lorenz, who I saw as a fringe first round candidate coming in, but he showed some pretty brutal decision-making at times throughout the tournament. I know there's a lot of love for David Goyette around the internet lately, and he was pretty good here but I'm not sure I quite see the excess of skill to make up for the lack of size. At this point I see him more as an early second rounder than late first. As far as Canada's secondary players, I was most impressed with Kocha Delic and Nicholas Moldenhauer. Delic is a smart, tenacious two-way forward who could have a future as a bottom six in the NHL. Moldenhauer is more boom-bust, small and offense-first, but highly skilled. Both look like 2nd-3rd rounders.. On defense, lots to like about Mastrodomineco, a physical two-way RD who I would imagine should go 3rd or 4th round.
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1 hour ago, VancouverHabitant said:
I'd much prefer 2023 draft picks if I could choose.
Just by examining the Hlinkas last year and the U18s this year, it seems that 2023 draft class is much stronger then 2022.
Agreed. 2022 is around average, probably slightly above average. I've just been protesting against the idea that it's a weak class. Some drafts are just average. 2023 looks superlative.
I was just thinking earlier about how U18s performances have effected my take on some 2023s.
Adam Fantilli and Leo Carlsson stay static. Had them top five before. Not likely to surpass Bedard or Michkov, but they're legit.
Lukas Dragicevik and Will Smith are moving up for me. Dragicevic was exposed by elite, older players that first game against USA, but since then he's been able to show some really high-end offensive abilities to a level I hadn't seen from him with Tri-City. If there is going to be a defenseman break into the top 5, he's the one. Will Smith missed the first couple games and then jumped right on to that line with Nazar and Howard, allowing Nazar to move from center to his natural RW. Smith is not out of place with those guys in the least.
Charlie Stramel and Matthew Wood are trending down for me. I thought both merited top 5 consideration. Maybe still do, but I'm less sure. Both are big bodies and very good players, just don't seem to have that special something.
Kasper Halttunen wasn't a player I was all that aware of before this tournament, but he's another big, skilled forward, and he doesn't turn 17 until June.
Unlike this 2022 draft where the top 15 is loaded with highly skilled but sub 6' forwards, especially wingers, 2023 is stacked a mile high with highly skilled 6'+ forwards (many 6'2+), especially centers.
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San Jose Sharks playoff roster
Pierre Engvall - Sasha Barkov - Ryan Hartman
Johan Larsson - Nicklas Backstrom - Curtis Lazar
Kyle Turris
Otto Somppi
Devon Toews - Dante Fabbro
Alex Goligoski - Sean Durzi
Kurtis MacDermid
Mike Smith
Hunter Shepard
Should be a pretty close first round matchup with Calgary actually. We have the defensive depth but they have a couple more big guns up front.
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21 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:
Jiri Kulich is slated to go anywhere from 20 to 50 based on projections?
I see he's listed as a 6' center... does he look solid out there compared to his peers?
My best guess would be 25 to 35.
You mean solid physically? Honestly can't recall seeing him in any physical exchange. Was surprised with his skill and finesse. He actually took the puck to the inside occasionally, but he's so slippery he was barely touched (keep in mind how bad Canada's defense is).
On a different note, I am so in awe of this USA team. I've been following this tournament for quite a few years, and this is one of the best teams I have ever seen. USA's 2012 team was dominant led by the best defense corps I can recall, with Seth Jones, Jacob Trouba, Brady Skjei, Matt Grzylek. Canada's 2013 team was loaded, with McDavid, Sam Reinhart, Sam Bennett, Josh Morrissey, Shea Theodore. USA's 2019 team was incredible, with Jack Hughes, Trevor Zegras, Alex Turcotte, Cole Caufield, Matt Boldy, Matt Beniers, Cam York, Spencer Knight, but somehow lost the gold medal game (to under-aged Alex Holtz and Lucas Raymond). And then there was Canada's team last year with Mason McTavish, Shane Wright, Connor Bedard, Brandt Clarke, etc.
Maybe not overall the all-time best team at this tournament, but I legitimately think this must be the best ever forward group. You've got Logan Cooley, Frank Nazar, Cutter Gauthier, Isaac Howard, Rutger McGroarty, Jimmy Snuggerud all going to go first round this year. Charlie Stramel and Will Smith top 10 or 15 next year. The 2019 USA team or Canada's 2021 team might have had slightly better top sixes, but that's 8 elite forwards I've already named, and then down to Cruz Lucius, Devin Kaplan, Cole Spicer, they've got 3rd and 4th liners who are likely to be drafted 2nd and 3rd round. USA's 3rd line of Stramel-McGroarty-Lucius can go toe-to-toe with any other team's top line and hold their own.
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On 4/25/2022 at 1:59 PM, King Heffy said:
I actually really like Boeser on and off the ice. He needs an elite passer to really utilize his ability though
Timmy Stuetzle, baby.
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8 hours ago, komodo0921 said:
I'm perfectly comfortable in saying that this is a down year for Brock and that next season will bring him better fortunes on the ice.
Unfortunately, from Vancouver's stand-point, his next contract may be too rich to make it affordable in this market. I am really hoping they can come to an agreement on a fair contract for both sides but don't have much optimism in it coming to be.
The question is; Is Brock Boeser better then what's available to Ottawa at their pick? and; How long before the pick sees NHL games?
I believe Brock has yet to achieve his full potential due to bad luck injuries and the COVID pandemic. I think there's much more to him then we've seen so far.
Brock being yraded to Ottawa gives them a top line winger that steps in right now and instantly upgrades their top-six.
We get an older, third liner who doesn't look to be much more then that.
In this scenario, I think their 1st rounder, tp 3 protected is perfectly fair.
Well no, that's not the only question. Connor Brown will return easily a late first at least. Probably a late first plus a decent prospect. Pretty good chance the 7th overall pick will be as good or better than Boeser. Yes they will take some time to get there, but that also comes with years of cost control.
Boeser for the 7th would merit consideration, but ultimately I don't think I'd do it for the Sens. Both Brown and the first? No way.
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Watching the Canada-Czech game. Really liking what I'm seeing from Kulich and Sapovaliv, particularly Kulich. He is more skilled than I realized.
Owen Pickering is an absolute beast. I can't possibly fathom how people can say this is a weak draft class. The more I watch the more I'm seeing kids like Pickering, Kasper, Howard, who look to me like top 15 or 20 calibre picks. There's gotta be at least 25 of them. This is what I've been saying from the start of the season - you've got a good chance to get a good NHL player anywhere in the top 25.
With all the smaller kids, I can see how people might criticize the inordinate amount of risk, particularly through the top 15, but it's one of the deepest groups through 25 I've seen in quite a few years.
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1 hour ago, Marv-the-wet-bandit said:
I like all of the players you mentioned, Trikozov is very intriguing to me. I really like Chesley and just think he’s the perfect fit for this this team (particularly Hughes) but I would take most of the guys you mentioned ahead of him. On the back end I definitely take Pickering, Luneau, Korchinski and Mateychuk ahead of him and think 3 of those 4 will probably be available to us.
Hands down the most interesting case study in the draft for me. Every year there's a couple players like this in the top 10 or 15, who tend to try to use their skills to do too much, who maybe have questionable understanding of how to use their teammates and play within a team concept. It's always kids who have been phenoms from a very young age and were so much better than everyone they could do what they want and never had to learn to play the right way. Perfetti and somewhat Holtz in 2020. Lysell and a little bit Kent Johnson last year. This year there's a few - Nazar kinda, Savoie, Kemell.
But Trikozov is a bit of a different animal. He might be a slight step down from those guys in terms of pure skill, but he's 6'1, 185 and and a freak athlete. He's like a freight train out there at the junior level; I don't know how many times I've seen him get cut off along the boards and just lower the shoulder and plow through. But I also don't know how many times I've seen him toe drag a forechecker coming out of his own zone, or go through a guy's legs behind his own net.
He's a force on the defensive side of things too. Skating through pucks, backchecking like a man possessed (often has to because he turned over the puck), and he's so deceptive. On the backcheck he loves to press guys away from the middle towards the boards and then sneak up the long way around them and attack the puck from the board-side - but again, its a riskier play since if they notice him coming up the board-side they know they have a lane to the middle.
He's either going to be the second coming of Marian Hossa... or he'll be one hell of a KHLer.
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12 minutes ago, Marv-the-wet-bandit said:
Why is it you don’t like Chesley? Is it the lack of offensive upside? I think he would fit the Canucks group really well, we could use a right shot Dman that’s strong and reliable defensively. His positioning and awareness is at a pretty high level and he makes good first passes even when he’s under pressure. I, obviously, personally like him but am just curious as to why you don’t? Over the years I’ve seen a lot of your takes I absolutely agree with so I’m not saying you’re wrong I’m just genuinely curious.
Yes, in short, lack of upside. Maybe "anywhere in the first" was a slight exaggeration on Chesley. After 25 or so I'd be more ok with it. But he doesn't get me excited for a top 15 pick.
Maybe part of it is I just don't think this draft is as weak as others do. If it was last year's class, then yeah maybe top 20 or 25. But there's a lot of players in this draft I'd be stoked to see the Canucks take at 15. Aside from the kinda consensus top 12-14, I'm really high on Trikozov (although with the Russian thing...). Korchinski, Gauthier, McGroarty, Howard, Luneau, Mateychuk, Kasper, and at least a couple others.
And then when you're talking about more of a defensive-first guy like that, it would be nice to have them be 6'2 or 6'3 or better (Pickering, Lammoureux).
So yeah, I just think there are a lot of players with much higher upside, and many of them don't come with all that much risk either.
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7 hours ago, Screw said:
What do you guys think of Liam Ohgren? This guy looks like he could be a player.
Like him a lot. Would be stoked if Canucks got him. Recrutes is a pretty respectable group and I think they had him 3rd overall on their last rankings.
Big body. 6'2 and thick as $&!#. Great skater, great shot. A real handful for defenders down low. Just not sure about his upper-end hockey sense - creativity, deceptiveness and such. Should be a reasonably safe bet for 25-30 goals and 55-65 points in the NHL anyway. I haven't seen a ton of him though. Maybe has a whole different gear that Grant McCagg and co at Recrutes are seeing.
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7 hours ago, theo5789 said:
I'm curious to know poster's opinions on their do not draft lists. Or players one would be upset with had we selected that player.
Wouldn't really say I have DNDs. Just players I'd rave ranked later that most. Not the biggest fan of Joakim Kemell, but I guess if the Canucks got him at 14 or 15 I'd be cool with it.
I'd be very disappointed with either of Chesley or Salomonsson in anywhere in the first round.
Would prefer to stay away from any Russians. I guess I'd be ok with Yurov at 15, considering I have him 4th on my overall list.
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45 minutes ago, komodo0921 said:
I'd, honestly, be happy with just the 1st and Brown and keeping our 1st.
I probably wouldn't do it for the Sens in that case. Enormous difference between full-on giving away a 7th overall and flipping it for 15th. If I'm being terribly honest I don't regard Docker all that highly at this point.
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3 hours ago, hammertime said:
Ill preface by saying I don't mind our current defense. The fundamental problem is age. A few guys I would target if trading Brock. As I highly doubt teams are going to be clamoring to give us their 1st/2nd round picks.
Ryan Graves NJ He'd probably be my first pick. We need big minute shut down lefty to unleash OEL from that role. NJ Has Bahl, Siegenthaler, Shak they don't need 6'5 Graves too.
Atrem Zub OTT I really like him he flies under the radar makes simple plays hits blocks shots plays stable and reliable mins. Ott could use Brock I think he'd be a real good fit there.
Andrew Peeke CBJ 4th in blocked shots and 30th in hits he's 24 6'3 playing hard mins I like this kid.
Jokiharju BUF could they use Brock? Joki's offense is what got him drafted but his defense has come a long way with his skating he could keep up with Hughes pace and might just break out offensively.
To the Draft.
Somehow we need 2 of
Kaspar C
Gaucher C
Beck C
Chesley RD
Bichsel LD
Lamoureux RD
Warren RD
It pains me to say I think Hoglander is the guy who can return 1st/2nd round pics and maybe help dump a Poolman/Dickinson. I'm not keen to move him but I have a hard time finding a fit for him in the top 9 there are only so many spots for undersized skill guys and right now Garland is performing above what I would project Hoglander's ceiling to be locked up through his prime. Trading him will be a hard choice that doesn't need to be made this year.
The problem with Zub is that RD is just as big a need in Ottawa as it is for Vancouver, and Zub is sort of young enough to fit the Sens' current trajectory.
I like Jokiharju quite a bit and I think he could be a great partner for Hughes. Don't see Boeser as a need for Buffalo though. they already have an over-paid one-dimensional goal-scorer in Skinner. Would you move the Canuck's pick straight across for Jokiharju? Would they do it?
Boeser to New Jersey could make sense. Similar to Ottawa, they have a really young forward group, and could use an established scoring threat without wrecking their cap. Severson is better than Graves, and he's an RD. Would be a perfect fit with Hughes. New Jersey might be willing to move him as they have Hamilton. Would have to add a bit to Boeser for Severson though.
All year I was thinking Kasper would probably go somewhere around 20, but with the playoffs he is having with Rogle I'm not so sure. For a 17 year old to play a regular shift in the top nine for a contending team throughout the playoffs in the SHL, and produce as Kasper has, it's extremely rare. I'm now wondering if Kasper might be closer to 10 than he is to 20. Could still be within the Canuck's range, but probably won't be able to trade down and add a 2nd if you want to get him, as I'm sure many here would hope.
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11 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:
Ok, first off, I would like to say, Tyler Myers has done a great job this year, and is fully worth his $6.00 Million. In saying that, I believe he has value in trade, and has value clearing cap, by trading him. The suggestion of moving Myers to Dallas to replace Klingberg, is a great idea, and one that brings back asset in return. In saying that, if we had plenty of cap space, I would be keeping him, but we need to generate more offense from the back end...................so
UFA Targets
1. Anthony Deangelo (current age 26 years old) This guys is an offensive dynamo and will be getting paid as such next year....$6,500,000 X 7 years
2. Jan Rutta (current age 31 years old) We missed out on Rutta last time around, this time we get him......$2,000,000 X 3 years
3. Ilya Lyubushkin (current age 28 years old) This guy is just a big body and will compliment Schenn as they platoon through injuries $2,000,000 X 3 years
2022 Draft Targets
1. David Jiricek (RHD)......................100% blue chip star in the making. this guys can play Offense and Defense........he will not be there at 15, do we move up?
2. Ryan Chesley (RHD)......................Chesley is a great Defensive player and has added Offensive to his strengths.....very under-rated
3. Tristian Luneau (RHD)......................Tristian ranks in the 16 to 20 spot in most rankings......Offense is his strength.......solid skater
4. Noah Warren (RHD) .....................Underdog, but I think he goes in the 2nd round, well before his 3rd round consensus
So, why go so hard on the UFA targets............simply put Rutta and Lyubushkin can be moved as the young kids develop and Deangelo despite what some of the goodie 2 shoes on here say, has been a very well received and positive force in Carolina. It is a long shot to be able to acquire him, but he would take alot of pressure away from QH, and would be a great trading chip in 3 to 4 years. Not to mention his 50 points, he can provide from the back end.
Note* In regards to the NHL draft, we should be able to acquire 2 of these RHD, if we work it right and none would be bad choices..............
As hinted above.............trading Myers and Boeser allows us the flexibility to make these moves, as well as obtaining much needed assets.....................I sign Miller with part of the money saved........................................
OK flame away!
Only major complaint is about sayng Luneau's strength is offense. He's a great 200-foot defenseman, but I would say his best attribute is his transition game, followed by his defense, and then his offense isn't a weakness by any stretch, but it's not his bread-and-butter, although there's some upside there. Think of guys like Weegar, Severson, Toews as a ceilling. Puck-movers first and foremost. Toews and Weegar only later in their careers found this major offensive element, largely predicated on moving the puck up ice to elite forward groups.
Nemec and Jiricek are probably not realistic draft options, unless there is a very concentrated effort made to acquire a pick by trade, which would have to be part of a move for a Boeser or suchlike. There are a couple other really good RD further down. Someone already mentioned Lammoureux (late 1st - early 2nd), but also Sam Rinzel and Elias Salomonsson are intriguing options for later in the 2nd (if Canucks add a 2nd).
On your UFA options, I like Rutta quite a bit. Would be a great add. Not such a fan of Lyubushkin. DeAngelo would be a sweet pickup, but as you said, very expensive. On the open market, could end up even a little more than you're suggesting here.
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Noah Ostlund is really, really good.
Check out this play at 3:23. Jersey numbers are hard to read but he's the blue guy in the middle circle. Filthy.
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14 hours ago, theo5789 said:
I think Nemec and Jiricek go in the top 10. Unlikely either are available to us unless we win the lottery. Luneau should be available, but I've seen him ranked mostly as a late 1st or even out of the 1st in some rankings, so not sure if he would be a reach for us. Haven't heard too much hype for Ty Nelson, most likely cause he's on a smaller-ish side, but he's seemingly been ranked higher than Luneau overall.
If we are indeed targetting Luneau, I hope we trade down and add a pick or two in the process.
Difficult to imagine which rankings you're referring to that have Nelson higher than Luneau. Looking at some of the most reputable rankings,
Luneau:
McKenzie - 21
Central (N/A) - 10
SportsNet - 22
McKeen - 22
Recrute - 38
Nelson:
McKenzie - 34
Central (N/A) - 25
SportsNet - N/R
McKeen - 24
Recrute - 28
The two universally respected rankings are McKenzie and Central Scouting. McKenzie already had Luneau 21 at mid-season, and that was before his strong offensive second half to the season - 15 in 25 through the end of 2021 for 0.6 p/g; 25 in 35 since the calendar turned, for 0.714 p/g. Central has him 10th in N/A, which would likely put him just inside the top 20 overall. So I'm not too sure where you're getting this "late first or outside the 1st" from. Seems to me 21-22 should be considered mid-first more than late first, and he's trending upward.
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Man oh man that USA-Canada game got out of hand quick. The shots were 14-2 halfway through the first. 42-16 after the 2nd. Isaac Howard with the 4 goal game.
Canada really got the $&!#-end of the stick this year. Just on defense, they're missing Tristan Luneau, Kevin Korchinksi, Denton Mateychuk, Maverick Lammoureux, Ty Nelson, Mats Lindgren, Isiah George... Am I missing anyone? If they had free choice of anyone eligible, probably the only defenseman actually on the team who would have made it is Owen Pickering.
Bedard and Fantilli did what they could, but the mismatches were overwhelming. Baumgartner tried going with Bedard and Pickering against the Cooley line every chance he could, and it was pretty successful, but that freed up the Howard-Nazar line to absolutely feast on every other Canadian line and D pair.
Coming into the tournament, I was hopeful under-aged stars Dragicevik and Matthew Wood could step up and be impact players, but I was reminded how much a difference one year of development makes at this age. Kids like that could have been fine in support roles, but they're not ready to be go-to players at this level, against this competition.
Fantilli had his moments, but playing mostly with Ward and Moldenhauer, you could argue that literally every USA line was better than Canada's 2nd line in this one. Goyette and Delic looked good at times too, but more often they were just in way over their heads.
I'm sure Canada will fair much better against other teams, but I just don't know how they (or any team in this tournament) are going to stand a chance against this American juggernaut.
Re Tooling [Proposal]
in Proposals and Armchair GM'ing
Posted
No way Arizona does that for Chychrun. Particularly with that contract of his, some cap-crunched contender is going to move heaven and earth to acquire him.
And no, we can't all agree Hoglander is a top 10 pick from 2019. Quickest to get there does not equate with best.