nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 How do we prevent people from jumping over them? Unless they put a security officer at every station from early morning to late at night, there will be punks who will try to get around the system. There will be people manning the stations, and there will also be cameras. The fare gates also have detectors for gate jumping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 the true test is the maintenance. if they don't make enough money catching fare evaders these things might be ready for replacement before they are paid for. The fare gate company that is builds and designs fare gates/smart cards/fare machines will be operating the fare gates for a period of 5-years as part of the contract. This also allows Translink to learn how to operate and maintain them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 I wonder if these gates are also designed not to let you out, if you didn't pay the appropriate fare to ride to that particular station. Yes, that's how fare gates work for distance pricing. Although, in the first place they usually don't let you in unless you have a minimum amount in your card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Plus, Commercial-Broadway looks nothing like what is depicted in the image. That image/rendering is the Commercial-Broadway station entrance on the south side facing 10th Avenue, not on the Broadway side. The 10th Avenue entrance was built 2 years ago. I would be quite concerned if we only went with 3 fare gates for the main entrance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 does anyone know the ridership at peak hours. How many people per minute kind of deal? Each fare gate can typically deal with 30 to 45 uninterrupted person flows per minute. It's quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Did they lack the budget to have these installed earlier? That...and some folks at Translink didn't believe their usefulness, and that fare evasion is somehow only 5% (I think that's the figure). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Are the majority of people going to jump the turnstiles? No. Will some people? Definitely. This can apply to anything. What's the point of speeding laws if people are going to speed anyways unless there's a cop or speed camera on every street and highway? Honestly, who has never sped on a highway. What's the point of shoplifting laws if people are still going to shoplift unless there is a security guard at each aisle in a grocery store. Of course there's going to be people who go against the law, but the majority will obey the turnstiles. Go to other country with turnstiles. Most people are civilized enough to obey the laws. We need the turnstiles. They should have been implemented 10 years ago. You tell people in the rest of the world that we don't have turnstiles and expect people to buy tickets, and they'll laugh at you. I say as Canadians, we respect the law more than other people in the world. With the turnstiles come the smartcard. With the smartcard comes hopefully a distance based system. This zone based system is ridiculous and a ripoff. My we should have turnstiles argument is weak, I know. Couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 From the Sun - a diagram of the fare gates: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/5128223.bin?size=620x400 They look identical to the new gates on MUNI, pics by AgentAkit on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentakit/4869560663/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentakit/4870176454/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentakit/4870178862/in/photostream/#/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentakit/4870181134/sizes/l/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/agentakit/4869579411/in/set-72157624675080338/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buggernut Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 It's because the Expo Line station ticketing concourses weren't designed with fare gates in mind. A lot of renovations have to be done to accommodate them. Ticketing concourses weren't designed with fare gate passenger flow in mind, or they ware too narrow/small. The Millennium Line and particularly the Canada Line are another case. They were both designed with fare gates in mind. The Canada Line stations are last on the list for installation for this reason, it will be very quick. It'll be interesting to see what they'll come up with for Metrotown... Metrotown Station's already undergone a renovation in fairly recent years. Hopefully, it was designed to retrofit the gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Metrotown Station's already undergone a renovation in fairly recent years. Hopefully, it was designed to retrofit the gates. Metrotown has not undergone a renovation since it was built, any renovation might have been a paint job or when the pedestrian overpass was installed to the mall. The gates would have to be located in the tiny ticketing concourse at the station, there isn't enough space to put the number of fare gates they need (or the flow space) for the ridership levels the station receives. A major $50-million renovation of Metrotown is in the books, but who knows when that will ever happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Common sense Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Metrotown has not undergone a renovation since it was built, any renovation might have been a paint job or when the pedestrian overpass was installed to the mall. The gates would have to be located in the tiny ticketing concourse at the station, there isn't enough space to put the number of fare gates they need (or the flow space) for the ridership levels the station receives. A major $50-million renovation of Metrotown is in the books, but who knows when that will ever happen... Blow up the station and start from scratch? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Blow up the station and start from scratch? More or less...I believe it includes: - Building a new and wider pedestrian overpass, without the three steps of stairs at the ticketing concourse - Building a second pedestrian overpass on the western end of the station - Building a completely new roof - Building a big and new station ticketing concourse along the entire length of the station platform, which will also include getting rid of the current lone escalator/staircase and building several down the centre of the platform - Moving the bus terminal so that it'll be right under the station Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armada Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Blow up the station and start from scratch? Brilliant idea. Hire this man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weber's Playoff Beard Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 A gate at the top of the ascending staircase would inconvenience thou fairest riders. There be numerous locations of ascension above the thieves' burden; Waterfront, Granville and Burrard are those. If be doors at hell's depths, an exploit perhaps may reveal itself to those wits who dare cheat thy governance. If a gate be at the top, perhaps foresee thou most unprepared dolt ruffling his sac to prepare his self; what if a man be unprepared or intoxicated by death's lovely drink. It would halt progress and condemn all of thy fair servants to a hellish struggle for survival. ... thou could avoid thy horrible doom if the forbidden quarters be extended beyond thy stairway to supernatural transportation. In addition, Commercial-Broadway in no manner be represented by thine ghoulish portrait. Can I sparknotes this? I stopped reading after the first paragraph. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weber's Playoff Beard Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) I wonder if these gates are also designed not to let you out, if you didn't pay the appropriate fare to ride to that particular station. Well in other places... if you try to swipe/scan out but the computer hasn't recorded that you swiped in.. or after like a couple hours the computer sees that you swiped in but never swiped out.. you get charged the max fare.. so depending on how Translink does it.. that could be $10 or something. So say someone jumps the entrance turnstile. At the exit turnstile, there's a cop/guard there, then they tell the guy who doesn't have a card/chip to have to pay the max fare. I think that's how it works in other places in the world. That's assuming they have both entrance and exit turnstiles. I think that's the best way and the way I would do it. Edit: after reading your posts.. I think if Translink is really going cheap.. they only need a transit guy at the exit gate. You gotta swipe out otherwise pay full fare. They are doing entrance and exit gates right? Can someone confirm or deny that? Edited July 20, 2011 by HeChats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlvlw Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Hopefully we see some quick benefits of this, because $100mill is a lot to put in a project thats supposed to increase revenues...it'll be years before they recover this amount and justify it. This type of system is in place in a LOT of major countries, especially in Asia. Its very useful and definitely worth it when there are a lot of people in the city, but for Vancouver...I'm not so sure theres enough volume or traffic to justify doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Hopefully we see some quick benefits of this, because $100mill is a lot to put in a project thats supposed to increase revenues...it'll be years before they recover this amount and justify it. This type of system is in place in a LOT of major countries, especially in Asia. Its very useful and definitely worth it when there are a lot of people in the city, but for Vancouver...I'm not so sure theres enough volume or traffic to justify doing this. Don't count on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 That...and some folks at Translink didn't believe their usefulness, and that fare evasion is somehow only 5% (I think that's the figure). Why wouldn't you beleive the figure? Every time I have seen a check there's maybe one bum on the train that doesn't have the fare. And I have seen a lot of random fare checks.... If you think young punks or bums (majority of fare evaders) are going to suddenly stop riding transit and/or pay up you have to be kidding yourself. The bums in particular will laugh off your exit guards when they try to get them to pay a full fare for jumping the other gate. What are they going to do, threaten them with free accomidation for the night! I suppose if you went heavy all out guard you would eventually get the revenue as they would loiter around the station bumming for fare and they could get it from other travellers. Or they will simply ride the bus for free since anyone knows you can just walk on a bus for free if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weber's Playoff Beard Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Why wouldn't you beleive the figure? Every time I have seen a check there's maybe one bum on the train that doesn't have the fare. And I have seen a lot of random fare checks.... If you think young punks or bums (majority of fare evaders) are going to suddenly stop riding transit and/or pay up you have to be kidding yourself. The bums in particular will laugh off your exit guards when they try to get them to pay a full fare for jumping the other gate. What are they going to do, threaten them with free accomidation for the night! I suppose if you went heavy all out guard you would eventually get the revenue as they would loiter around the station bumming for fare and they could get it from other travellers. Or they will simply ride the bus for free since anyone knows you can just walk on a bus for free if you want to. Good luck laughing off the exit guards. If you meet the right bus driver, they will not move the bus until the person who didn't pay the fare gets off. I've seen it happen and I've felt the tension on the whole bus. The nonpaying customer could choose to pay the fare, get off the bus, or have transit authorities drag them off the bus. Their choice. You can't believe the 5% figure because there's no way of knowing how much % fare evades. All of this is a guess based on the number of checks they do. The figure could be off by a lot. When the person sees a transit guy come on to check tickets, they could get off. Or for the transit guys that stand at the top of escalators, people could buy a ticket only when they see that a transit person is checking tickets. The figure is inaccurate. In addition, I personally don't think they can recouperate the costs of the faregates. However, the implementation of the smartcard with the faregates is a very good thing. The smartcard should have been implemented a long time ago. RFID technology in the smartcard makes everything run better. You're saying in other words, that people are going to fare evade and jump the turnstiles. That's true, there are going to be. But why have laws or any rules in the world if not everyone is going to obey them? Because most people will obey them. Are the majority of people going to jump the turnstiles? No. Will some people? Definitely. This can apply to anything. What's the point of speeding laws if people are going to speed anyways unless there's a cop or speed camera on every street and highway? Honestly, who has never sped on a highway. What's the point of shoplifting laws if people are still going to shoplift unless there is a security guard at each aisle in a grocery store. Of course there's going to be people who go against the law, but the majority will obey the turnstiles. Go to other country with turnstiles. Most people are civilized enough to obey the laws. I thought of another one. Why have the handsfree cellphone laws while driving when so many people aren't obeying it? The law is to protect other innocent people who will become victims from this person's poor decision to use their cellphone and drive.. but there's still people who aren't obeying it. The turnstiles aren't useless. Stop trying to make them out to be. Edited July 20, 2011 by HeChats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Good luck laughing off the exit guards. If you meet the right bus driver, they will not move the bus until the person who didn't pay the fare gets off. I've seen it happen and I've felt the tension on the whole bus. You can't believe the 5% figure because there's no way of knowing how much % fare evades. All of this is a guess based on the number of checks they do. The figure could be off by a lot. When the person sees a transit guy come on to check tickets, they could get off. Or for the transit guys that stand at the top of escalators, people could buy a ticket only when they see that a transit person is checking tickets. The figure is inaccurate. In addition, I personally don't think they can recouperate the costs of the faregates. However, the implementation of the smartcard with the faregates is a very good thing. The smartcard should have been implemented a long time ago. RFID technology in the smartcard makes everything run better. If your a homeless guy on the train, what are they going to do, toss you in free accomidation? And besides the derelicts that ride for free will just panhande/steal their way onto a train. If you happen to get on a bus that won't move with that bus driver wait for the next bus then. It's not like if your a bum your in a hurry. Or teach him/her a lesson and rough them up a bit. What are they going to do, give you a couple month free accomidation? I would be pretty anxious to test any desperate person wanting on the bus when fall rolls around. Bums and derelicts aren't going to give up and walk that's for sure, nor are they going to stop travelling as needed any more than you or I do. And it's fairly simply to figure out the number of evaders. You only enter the train right before the doors close, and if you see people jumping out, you detain them. In fact that's what they do. If it's that problematic go plainclothes inspection for a while. If the number is unrealiable find a better way to test it rather than simply tossing up your hands and opting to mindlessly spend money. And while there are benefits to more intelligent ways of collecting fares, it's still the total fare that affects revenue as much as it effects ridership. For every new person you get that didn't want to pay two zones to go one stop over the border of a zone you could loose one that was going from one edge to the other within a zone. Never mind that it greatly complicates the fare structure (and inevitably increases it) and requires you to yard yet another freaking card around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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