The Official Transit Thread

[Common sense]

Expect an aerial tram to SFU to get the go-ahead

[Opmac]

Expect an aerial tram to SFU to get the go-ahead

Can it move students fast and efficient enough? Apparently, it's going to be based on the Peak 2 Peak Gondola in Whistler. How many people fit into a cabin? 15? Probably closer to 100 students wanting to get onto it at peak periods?

Just how automated will this system be? The boarding process is slow and I envision long lineups getting on.

I'm thinking a light rail system on the existing road up to SFU would have been better just because it will be more automated and more people will be moved per car.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Opmac

[Gnickers87]

Can it move students fast and efficient enough? Apparently, it's going to be based on the Peak 2 Peak Gondola in Whistler. How many people fit into a cabin? 15? Probably closer to 100 students wanting to get onto it at peak periods?

Just how automated will this system be? The boarding process is slow and I envision long lineups getting on.

I'm thinking a light rail system on the existing road up to SFU would have been better just because it will be more automated and more people will be moved per car.

These are all things I'm sure they will address, because from what I've been told, it's 99.9% going to happen. They've done lots of research in regards to the type of tram and routes and the data shows a conclusion that is both economically sound and environmentally friendly.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Gnickers87

[trek]

At 8:30am in the Fall semester, before I graduated, there would be 3 articulated #145's lined up at Production station and after about 3 minutes, each would depart one after the other. All packed, that is a ton load of people. The tram better be able to handle those loads.

Edited May 15, 2011 by trek

[Gnickers87]

At 8:30am in the Fall semester, before I graduated, there would be 3 articulated #145's lined up at Production station and after about 3 minutes, each would depart one after the other. All packed, that is a ton load of people. The tram better be able to handle those loads.

Buses would not be taken away entirely, less will just be used.

The 145 is ridiulous though. I learned eventually to just go to Sperling Station and get the 144. not as hectic and way more room.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Gnickers87

[nitronuts]

Ya but they don't even have all the money for the evergreen line yet. But I have had an idea that we will call phase 1. What we do is extend the millenium to the olympic village station to the west and to port moody west coast express to the east. That will dramatically increase the number of connections and will make the system far more effecient. It will still have the B lines but their routes will be much shorter in this scenario. Also, expo line/millenium/RAV line trains that want to transfer to each otther won't have to go via downtown anymore AND people taking the west coast express will have easy access to the whole skytrain system without having to go downtown. It would probably be within the existing budget (or at least close) that they have put asisde for the evergreen line and would have magnificant bang for buck.

I don't think Olympic Village Station is capable of handling the loads of crowds, although Broadway-City Hall was designed to (well, to an extent).

[nitronuts]

Great article.

Bring on the double deck buses!

Definitely, double decker buses would solve a lot of issues. Not only would they fit in the bus stops and be short enough to be able to drive in the bus bays, they would also take less space while driving on the road.

The only issue is money, which the article mentions...about $1.2-million for each double-decker, which holds more people than an articulated.

[nitronuts]

Can it move students fast and efficient enough? Apparently, it's going to be based on the Peak 2 Peak Gondola in Whistler. How many people fit into a cabin? 15? Probably closer to 100 students wanting to get onto it at peak periods?

Just how automated will this system be? The boarding process is slow and I envision long lineups getting on.

I'm thinking a light rail system on the existing road up to SFU would have been better just because it will be more automated and more people will be moved per car.

The Peak to Peak at Whistler has a capacity of about 2,000 passengers per hour per direction, which is of course insufficient...and it wasn't designed to be a transit system, not to mention the engineering issues and limits of having no supports for several kms and a drop taller than the CN Tower.

For SFU, they could probably design a system that would run 4,000 passengers per hour per direction which would plenty for current and long-term needs. For comparison, the Canada Line's operational capacity with its 14/20 trains is about 7,000 pphpd.

[silverpig]

What about just a really long escalator?

[ronthecivil]

Unfortunately for many riders buses filled to capacity passing them by are a reality. Bear in mind the article below notes reported instances - it is likely the actual figures are much higher.

And drivers without an ounce of common sense are also an issue.

Last year I was unable to use my arm due to nerve problems in a cervical vertebra (calcium deposit pressing on a nerve at a fracture site from 40 year ago when I fractured a vertebra while playing hockey) and was using transit. I arrived at the Edmonds SkyTrain Station around midnight and was about to board a bus to continue home when I noticed a disabled woman with a walker waving frantically as she had just come off the ramp. I pointed her out to the driver and she said "I've got a schedule, I can't wait". I told her this was midnight and given the lack of traffic she was going have to park at a timed stop a bit up the way so what did a minute matter if this woman could board and the next bus was scheduled one half hour later. "Too bad" was the answer. I was shocked and refused to move out of the doorway until the woman arrived. The driver threatened to close the doors on me and I told her to go ahead and then I would place her under arrest for assault and we would let the police and her employer sort it out. Meanwhile other passengers on the bus were berating her. The disabled woman arrived and boarded and we left. When I buzzed for my stop the driver continued on for a couple more stops. As I disembarked I was told "That will teach you **** ****". I reported the incident the next day and I received an apology from TranLink. I am not sure what discipline was or was not imposed upon the driver.

Documents reveal Coast Mountain buses passed by stops more than 200,000 times in 2010

Company says there's little they can do to help frustrated riders

By CHAD SKELTON, Vancouver Sun May 13, 2011

If you want to get Rob Plancke's blood boiling, just ask him about the #49 bus.

"I've run out of adjectives for how bad it is," he said. "I'm ready to rip up my bus pass."

The 49 has been part of Plancke's daily commute since he moved to south Vancouver from Kelowna in 2008.

He takes the bus down 49th Avenue to the Canada Line, the Canada Line down to Broadway, and then the 99 B-Line to his job repairing computers in Kitsilano.

When everything runs smoothly, said Plancke, the trip only takes about half an hour.

Unfortunately, things often don't run smoothly.

Plancke has lost count of the number of times the 49, chock full of passengers, has passed right by his bus stop at Elgin and 49th. He gets passed up at least once a week, he said, and sometimes has bus after bus run right by him.

"One day I was standing there for an hour and watched five buses go by," he said. "It became so bad I was getting reprimanded at work for being late three or four times a week."

Unfortunately, Plancke isn't alone.

Data obtained by The Vancouver Sun reveals the 49 is the worst route in Metro Vancouver for pass-ups, with bus drivers leaving passengers stranded at stops along the route more than 16,000 times last year alone.

And that's just a fraction of the more than 200,000 pass-ups that occurred across the region in 2010.

Officials with Coast Mountain Bus Co. say they're aware of the pass-up problem and realize the inconvenience it causes customers.

But they also say a combination of factors — from financial pressures to route layouts — means there's very little they can do about it.

"For all intents and purposes, we can't address pass-ups," said Tom Fink, director of transit service design for Coast Mountain. "We would love for everyone who gets to a bus stop to get on a bus. But that's just not going to happen."Until recently, the true scale of the pass-up problem in Metro Vancouver was something of a mystery. Bus drivers would occasionally radio in that they were leaving passengers behind, but a precise tally of pass-ups didn't exist.

Then, in 2008, Coast Mountain began outfitting each of its nearly 1,500 buses with GPS technology.

In addition to keeping track of all the buses in its fleet, and whether they're on schedule, the new technology also allowed the company to begin collecting detailed pass-up data for the first time.

A touch-screen device at the front of each bus shows a red "Pass Up" button that drivers are instructed to press whenever they are full and leave passengers behind at a stop.

Each time the button is pressed, the pass-up is recorded in Coast Mountain's central computers, detailing the exact time and location it occurred. At the request of The Sun, Coast Mountain released its data for all pass-ups in 2010.

Using that data, The Sun created a series of interactive graphics — available at vancouversun.com/passup — that illustrates which routes and stops have the biggest problems with pass-ups.

Not surprisingly, the data shows pass-ups are primarily a rush-hour issue. And they are most severe during the height of the morning rush between 8 and 9 a.m., what Coast Mountain calls the "peak of the peak."

Another smaller spike occurs during the afternoon rush between 3 and 6 p.m.

September, when students are still figuring out their schedules, is the busiest month of the year for pass-ups. December is the quietest.

Pass-ups are also concentrated among a surprisingly small number of routes. Fully one-quarter of all pass-ups on the entire bus system occur on just four routes: the 49, 99 B-Line, 22 (Knight-MacDonald) and 25 (Brentwood Station-UBC).

Why those four?

You might think routes with the most pass-ups would also be those with the most passengers. But of the four worst pass-up routes, only one — the 99 — is among Coast Mountain's five busiest routes.

And route 20 (Victoria-Downtown), the second-busiest route on the whole system after the 99, doesn't even crack the Top 10 for pass-ups.

Rather than sheer passenger volume, transit officials say what causes pass-ups is actually uneven demand: huge spikes in traffic either at particular times of day or in particular locations.

Katherine McCune, manager of service planning for Coast Mountain, said routes that serve post-secondary institutions are a particular challenge. That's because students who need to get to campus for the start of class all pile on buses within the same half-hour window and then cram on again when the last class ends for the day.

Other routes are busy in certain sections but not others, making it difficult for Coast Mountain to determine how many buses to put on the route. For example, the data shows that while the 49 is extremely crowded between Victoria and Cambie, it experiences virtually no pass-ups west of Cambie on its way to the Dunbar Loop and the University of B.C.

Ray Hamilton, supervisor of service analysis for Coast Mountain, said another problem is bus routes that serve rapid-transit stations.

Because so many passengers get on and off at such stops, drivers often have to wait several minutes to ensure everyone has a chance to get off and on. That can cause the next bus in line to catch up.

This bunching of buses can throw the route's schedule badly out of whack, create large gaps between buses, and make the problem of pass-ups even worse.

Hamilton said Coast Mountain is working with bus drivers to address the issue, encouraging them to maintain consistent spacing along their route.

Coast Mountain says pass-ups affect only a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of people who use its buses every day. And it notes pass-ups are most common on routes in Vancouver, where the next bus is usually no more than five or 10 minutes away.

However, Plancke, who usually commutes in the late morning, said it doesn't take many pass-ups to play havoc with a commuter's life.

"When I get passed up, there's 10 minutes out of my day," he said. "If I get passed up by another [bus], I'll get to work by the skin of my teeth. I have to double my trip time just to make sure I'm not late."

Don MacLeod, president of the bus driver's union, said his members tell him the problem of pass-ups and overcrowding has been getting worse each year.

And it's making drivers' jobs increasingly unpleasant, as they bear the brunt of passenger complaints.

He also suspects Coast Mountain's figures likely understate the problem, since many drivers he knows have simply given up recording pass-ups.

"A lot of drivers don't use that button because, month after month ... nothing changes," he said.Solving the problem of pass-ups would seem to be relatively straightforward: add more buses.

But Coast Mountain insists it's not that simple.

The company's budget is dictated by TransLink, which funds a set number of "service hours" each year.

Those hours went up about 20 per cent between 2005 and 2009, but haven't risen since.

That means bus service in Metro is essentially a zero-sum game.

"We're not holding anything back," said McCune. "If we're putting more service out, there will be less scheduled service [somewhere else], because the pot stays fixed."

And even if TransLink increased its bus budget tomorrow, Coast Mountain says, there are a series of infrastructure issues that make a quick fix for the problem almost impossible.

For example, one of the easiest ways to increase capacity on a bus route without hiring more drivers is to buy long, articulated buses that can hold many more passengers than a standard bus.

Unfortunately, the approach to many bus stops is too short to handle such buses without sticking out into the road and blocking traffic. And many routes, designed decades ago, have bus loops so tight the long buses can't make it through.

Coast Mountain said its bus depots are also nearly full, meaning there's literally nowhere to park more buses, even if they could afford them.

Given those infrastructure challenges, said Fink, addressing the pass-up problem would require major investments right across the system — like building brand-new bus depots — and take anywhere from two to five years to roll out.

"I don't think we'll ever fix routes like the 49 and 99," he said. "It's physically impossible. And if it was physically possible it would be hugely expensive."

One glimmer of hope on the horizon is TransLink's new Compass smart card, launching in 2013.

The card will make it possible to vary fares throughout the day, such as offering discounts for people who commute in the late morning, after the worst of the rush hour is over.

If those incentives encourage some passengers to leave for work a little bit later, or a little bit earlier, that could help smooth out the peaks in demand on the bus system, thereby reducing pass-ups.

"The great thing about the new system is that it provides much greater flexibility for us to make these kinds of changes," Mike Madill, TransLink's vice-president in charge of Compass, explained in an email.

In the meantime, Coast Mountain says it's doing what it can to address pass-ups.

It has a tiny contingent of reserve buses, called "trippers," that it can deploy in extreme circumstances, such as when an unexpectedly large group of foot passengers arrives at the Tsawwassen ferry terminal.

The company is engaged in a long-term "service optimization" program designed to, over time, shift buses from low-performing routes to more popular ones.

And, occasionally, it finds a few extra buses to spare.

After the Olympics, Coast Mountain had 20 surplus articulated buses left over from when the Canada Line replaced the 98 B-Line.

Last fall, it put those buses on routes where it thought they'd do the most good, said Fink, including eight on the 49, "the sorest point of the system."

Plancke said the new buses have made a noticeable difference to his daily commute.

As has his decision to walk an extra few blocks to Knight Street, where, since so many people get on and off, buses don't seem to pass by quite as often.

"It's still a crush load. I'm right in everyone's face when I get on that bus," said Plancke. "But I haven't been late to work in almost a month now."

http://www.vancouver...l#ixzz1MLlDocRv

I just like going with this story....

When I was going to UBC in the mid 90s I lived just off of campus. If I had a final exam I would always walk in as I could get passed up litterally a dozen times since everyone was trying to arrive at the same time, and being one stop from the end, it was pass up after pass up. So I would walk in.

After graduating I am talking with one of the younger guys I had known from school as he was in his last year and I remarked how awesome it must be to have the 99 Bline since you could just take that instead of getting passed up on the way to school. Much to my surprise he said that no, he had to walk in as well, since even the 99 Bline would pass you up at the sasamat stop just as reliably at the ten used to.

And of course he pointed out that even when his dad went to UBC he used to walk in from kits. Why? Because during finals the buses would pass him up so reliably he had to walk in from there!

So not only are the buses to UBC passing people up, they have been doing that for near 40 years!

[ronthecivil]

I don't think Olympic Village Station is capable of handling the loads of crowds, although Broadway-City Hall was designed to (well, to an extent).

Modify the station (or connect at Broadway city/hall). I just think the track itself would be much cheaper since to get to Olympic station you don't need to do any tunneling. (In fact a lot of it could potentially be partially at grade).

[ronthecivil]

Can it move students fast and efficient enough? Apparently, it's going to be based on the Peak 2 Peak Gondola in Whistler. How many people fit into a cabin? 15? Probably closer to 100 students wanting to get onto it at peak periods?

Just how automated will this system be? The boarding process is slow and I envision long lineups getting on.

I'm thinking a light rail system on the existing road up to SFU would have been better just because it will be more automated and more people will be moved per car.

No way you get a light rail up the hill unless you do something crazy like build spiral tunnels.

[nitronuts]

Modify the station (or connect at Broadway city/hall). I just think the track itself would be much cheaper since to get to Olympic station you don't need to do any tunneling. (In fact a lot of it could potentially be partially at grade).

May be cheaper to do it at Olympic Village, but for more practical and long-term reasons I'd choose Broadway-City Hall.

Broadway-City Hall Station is already designed with a Millennium Line extension in mind, a wall on the mezzaine level can be knocked down to build a corridor to the Millennium Line platform.

[nitronuts]

No way you get a light rail up the hill unless you do something crazy like build spiral tunnels.

...or use the mountain as the spiral.

[ronthecivil]

May be cheaper to do it at Olympic Village, but for more practical and long-term reasons I'd choose Broadway-City Hall.

Broadway-City Hall Station is already designed with a Millennium Line extension in mind, a wall on the mezzaine level can be knocked down to build a corridor to the Millennium Line platform.

Ya but the way that I think funding is coming around it's just an option to connect millenium to RAV and WCE at the lowest price point possible which would increase the odds of it being build in the short term rather than never.

[Weber's Playoff Beard]

What about just a really long escalator?

and move at 2 ft per second!

[Common sense]

What about just a really long escalator?

It'll freeze up anyways.

[silverpig]

I just like going with this story....

When I was going to UBC in the mid 90s I lived just off of campus. If I had a final exam I would always walk in as I could get passed up litterally a dozen times since everyone was trying to arrive at the same time, and being one stop from the end, it was pass up after pass up. So I would walk in.

After graduating I am talking with one of the younger guys I had known from school as he was in his last year and I remarked how awesome it must be to have the 99 Bline since you could just take that instead of getting passed up on the way to school. Much to my surprise he said that no, he had to walk in as well, since even the 99 Bline would pass you up at the sasamat stop just as reliably at the ten used to.

And of course he pointed out that even when his dad went to UBC he used to walk in from kits. Why? Because during finals the buses would pass him up so reliably he had to walk in from there!

So not only are the buses to UBC passing people up, they have been doing that for near 40 years!

Instead of walking for 30 minutes, couldn't you have just gotten on the bus 30 minutes earlier? Yeah, everyone wants to show up at 10:45 for their 11:00 exam, but why don't you take the bus that gets there at 10:15? I'm in Kerrisdale and when I was going to UBC I'd get passed by the 43/480/41 for the 9 am arrival times in September. Solution? Get on a bus 15 minutes early. They're empty.

[silverpig]

and move at 2 ft per second!

Naw, it'd be a TURBO escalator!

It'll freeze up anyways.

A TURBO COVERED escalator!

[ronthecivil]

Instead of walking for 30 minutes, couldn't you have just gotten on the bus 30 minutes earlier? Yeah, everyone wants to show up at 10:45 for their 11:00 exam, but why don't you take the bus that gets there at 10:15? I'm in Kerrisdale and when I was going to UBC I'd get passed by the 43/480/41 for the 9 am arrival times in September. Solution? Get on a bus 15 minutes early. They're empty.

Because I was getting on at sasamat which is literally the last stop and being early was no guarantee. After all to walk I would need to leave an hour before the exam to make it on time despite it being a five minute bus ride and it's not like I wouldn't try for at least one bus before I confirmed to obvious and just started the treck in.