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For Those Of You Who Believe Reffing Is Biased Against The Canucks, Look At This From The Nhl Website.


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#1 ECross

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

This is of course for those of you who look at things objectively and make judgements accordingly. If you are going to come into this with your subjective biases, there is no hope for you anyway so you might as well not bother with all this.

This is time on the PP minus time on the PK for this season. If anyone has reason to complain, it is the Colorado Avalanche. Look at that differential, the Avs have had about the same time spent on the PK as Vancouver, and yet, when you factor in calls that go their way, they have spent 60 MINUTES more killing penalties than Vancouver. I watch every Avs game, and nearly every Vancouver game, and in all honesty, the penalties are much more lopsided night in and night out against Colorado than they are for Vancouver.

And for those of you who will argue that Colorado is just a bad team and therefore are not able to draw penalties to get PP's, there is no way they are THAT much worse (as these stats show) and still able to be in playoff contention. It just would not happen.

1. Car: 87:55
2. Cbj: 87:20
3. Fla: 72:16
4. SJS: 61:36
5. Chi: 57:56
6. Tor 42:29
7. Det 38:42
...
13. NYI: 10:58
14. Buf: -0:53
15. Cgy: -3:28
16. Bos: -5:31
17. NJD: -7:11
...
23. Stl -34:48
24. Edm -35:10
25. Van -40:51
26. Wpg: -43:56
27. Was: -46:09
28. Ott: -64:34
29. Dal: -64:57
30. Col: -103:38


Here is the link:

http://www.nhl.com/i...penaltyKillTime

#2 Shift-4

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:18 AM

I don't think they are biased against the Canucks.

I just know, from watching a lot of hockey, that they are incompetent, inconsistent and sometimes blatantly ignorant to what happens on the ice.
Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#3 DooBie604

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:22 AM

Looking at that it actually appears that aside from Toronto, the refs don't like Canadian teams in general. Only Toronto is in the plus column.

#4 TotesMagotes

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:26 AM

Thanks for this, i myself can't stand the reffing, not because i think they are biased against the Canucks, but because league wide the way the refs call the games is completely situational.

A call they would make in the beginning of the game may not be one they would call with 5 minutes to go in a close game. There is no consistency and no one knows what a penalty is anymore. This leads to confusion and frustration for everyone, not just the canucks and their fans.
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#5 woot

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:29 AM

Not surprised Chicago is 5th after that last game.
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#6 irani1378

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:43 AM

the refs are bad for both sides... last night there was a stupid penalty on Bickel (i think it was him) for a little face wash on Kassian, the refs also missed a too many men on the ice against Vancouver, and a goaltender interference against Chicago

#7 irani1378

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:43 AM

the refs are bad for both sides... last night there was a stupid penalty on Bickel (i think it was him) for a little face wash on Kassian, the refs also missed a too many men on the ice against Vancouver, and a goaltender interference against Chicago

#8 Geoff Peterson

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:48 AM

It's funny how they seem to miss the obvious, but totally screw up the blatant...'CBS CARES'

#9 Dotcommi

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:50 AM

Its strange how our elite players (IE the twins) can get cross checked from behind with no call. Would that happen to the likes of Crosby, Datsyk, Zetterburg,Kessel, or Stamkos? I think not. I can understand allowing the obstruction to slow down the game to prevent injuries. How does that explain allowing hits from behind on two the the most talented players on one the NHL's biggest market teams? Its only a matter of time until one or both of the twins will have a major injury from being hit from behind into the boards. Then the NHL will tell us that they didn't see this coming and how there is no bias against the Canucks ....right.

#10 Shift-4

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:57 AM

the refs are bad for both sides... last night there was a stupid penalty on Bickel (i think it was him) for a little face wash on Kassian, the refs also missed a too many men on the ice against Vancouver, and a goaltender interference against Chicago


That was a good call. They need to do more of that. That nonsense after the whistle isn't hockey; it is garbage and needs to be cleaned up.
Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#11 Beluga Whale

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:58 AM

Seeing to bad teams at the top, makes you wonder doesn't it? And just to throw it out there; all Canadian teams are down near the bottom, except obviously Toronto.
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#12 Max-a-Million

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:58 AM

I watch mostly Vancouver games and so only have an opinion on the reffing against Vancouver. It seems the refs are quick to give Hank penalties but refuse to call many penalties against him when he's working the boards and is constantly getting his feet pulled out from under him or when he takes cross checks to his lower back, usually knocking him down. Perhaps they consider this normal, on the boards, scramble and not worth a penalty.

I don't think the refs are intentionally biased, I think they are trying to work a very fast moving game and have less tha a 1/10 of a second to decide a call. Once the arm goes up, they can't take it down. I don't know of a better way to manage the game though and each team has to play the game based on how they determine the refs are calling it.

In spite of what you all call bad reffing, the Canucks are still going to be in Season #2 starting in April and if they score more goals than the other teams each game, they'll come out on top. The refs don't own the game. Give it a rest belly achers!

Edited by Max-a-Million, 22 March 2012 - 12:01 PM.


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#13 Airjasper

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:01 PM

The refs are just incompetent and inconsistent. I've dropped the conspiracy theories. It really is this simple.

#14 Raiun

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:05 PM

It can't be biased against the Canucks AND against the Avalanche? If there is any kind of bias at all, there's no one saying it has to be against only one team in the league.

Actually those numbers you posted paint a really interesting picture. Why is the discrepancy so high? Using the Avalanche as an example, since it's the worst, to get to 100 minutes spent on the PK over minutes spent on the PP, you'd need to get 50 minor penalties, or some lesser combination of minor and major penalties. That's a loooot of penalties. Are they just the dirtiest team in the league? Do they just never get powerplays because every team plays like saints against them?

On the other side of the scale, Carolina being having the most powerplay minutes over their penalty kill minutes.. Carolina certainly is not a team full of saints. Are they just really good at drawing penalties? What's going on there?

Realistically, most of these teams play very similar games. Some are a bit more physical and intense, and should be more likely to take penalties. Some of these teams are more skilled and rely on finesse, they should be more likely to draw penalties.

So let's take the Canucks and Detroit, two teams that play a very similar game, based around skill and finesse. Why is Detroit positive 40 and Canucks are negative 40? Well, one obvious answer (which might be right or wrong) is that Vancouver is just a dirtier team. That's possible, but look at what other teams are around that number. Edmonton? St Louis? Colorado is worst by far, I don't think anyone would call them excessively dirty. So something else must be going on. Another obvious answer (again, might be right or wrong) is that the refs are just biased. Once you get that idea in your head, it starts to be really easy to pile on evidence and arguments in favor of that conclusion.

Refs are human, humans are always biased no matter what they do, Refs are biased. Okay, that argument works just fine, but of course humans are capable of putting aside bias, like courtroom judges are supposed to, so maybe refs can too. Problem is that judges have accountability, and it is public. Refs in the NHL right now do not appear to have any accountability, and if they do, it's not public apparent what kind of accountability they have.
So people have no reason to believe they are trying to be fair, because all they see is how unfair they are being.

#15 ccc44

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:07 PM

The NHL is a bush league , They put rules in the place but cant even follow them.

You dont know what your going to get game to game
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#16 realnucksfan2010

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:08 PM

I have been around hockey since i was three years old, i am 34 now. I thought last season was the worst officiating had ever seen but this year takes the cake!!!!!
I believe that the reason for the bad reffing lies on bettman and Shanahan.
They have implemented so many rule changes that the on ice officials have no clue what a penalty is anymore, i mean i have never seen so many four man ref confrences to discuss wheather or not there was actualy a penalty in my life!! We have the advantage of t.v. we get to see the best angles. I was a ref in juniour hockey for a season and quit. The hardest job i have ever had because you don't see everything and when you blow a call, the safest place is at center ice where the fans can't hit you with beer and other stuff.
Not siding with the refs because it has been bad but just sayin they don't have strict guidlines for calls it is up to their interpretation of what transpired!!!!
The League needs to stop messing with the game,put it back to the way it was, and fire bettam(AKA PEEWEE HERMAN) and put someone with some form of a brain in charge!
Taking fighting out of the game will be the last straw for me, if that happens the game will turn into one gigantic sward fight, no one will be safe! there will be more concussions than you can fathome!

#17 Wheels22

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:12 PM

Refs are just plain bad

#18 Mookie Wilson

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:13 PM

This is of course for those of you who look at things objectively and make judgements accordingly. If you are going to come into this with your subjective biases, there is no hope for you anyway so you might as well not bother with all this.

This is time on the PP minus time on the PK for this season. If anyone has reason to complain, it is the Colorado Avalanche. Look at that differential, the Avs have had about the same time spent on the PK as Vancouver, and yet, when you factor in calls that go their way, they have spent 60 MINUTES more killing penalties than Vancouver. I watch every Avs game, and nearly every Vancouver game, and in all honesty, the penalties are much more lopsided night in and night out against Colorado than they are for Vancouver.

And for those of you who will argue that Colorado is just a bad team and therefore are not able to draw penalties to get PP's, there is no way they are THAT much worse (as these stats show) and still able to be in playoff contention. It just would not happen.

1. Car: 87:55
2. Cbj: 87:20
3. Fla: 72:16
4. SJS: 61:36
5. Chi: 57:56
6. Tor 42:29
7. Det 38:42
...
13. NYI: 10:58
14. Buf: -0:53
15. Cgy: -3:28
16. Bos: -5:31
17. NJD: -7:11
...
23. Stl -34:48
24. Edm -35:10
25. Van -40:51
26. Wpg: -43:56
27. Was: -46:09
28. Ott: -64:34
29. Dal: -64:57
30. Col: -103:38


Here is the link:

http://www.nhl.com/i...penaltyKillTime


That data supports the theory there is bias against the Canucks! The Canucks are 25th out of 30 in terms of a favourable penalties for and against ratio.

As an analogy, you might also argue that - contrary to popular opinion - Afghani people actually have a high life expectancy because their life expectancy is higher than that in Botswana.

EDIT: and btw, what you said indicates you approach the matter with a subjective bias, which is based upon your assessment of the calls for and against Colorado.

Edited by Mookie Wilson, 22 March 2012 - 12:22 PM.


#19 AllHailSmyl

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:20 PM

The quality of calls made by referee's has been terrible for the last portion of the season, and not just in Canucks games. The Avs/Flames game the other night had significant calls missed for both sides, and this coming from a fan who loves to watch the Flames lose. At least let them lose fair!

By the way learn how to spell SHIRIKOV who is this shirakov


Amazingly on his first shift Kassian would have had a breakaway if Kesler knew how to pass. And he still got switched with Weiss. And note it is "Weiss" not "Wise".


#20 Shift-4

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:22 PM

Wouldn't a successful PP help put a team in the negative?
Hockey is the only sport, the rest are just games.

#21 Honeydew

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:23 PM

Calls need to be more consistent then being uncalled for, this is getting a bit tad ridiculous imo seeing how the Canucks lost a few calls especially the hit on D.Sedin from last night made me question the ref in general against the Canucks.
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#22 poetica

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:29 PM

Doesn't that mean we're 6th in the league for having spent more time short handed, the tune of 2+ periods worth of hockey over the course of the season? I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist (I'm usually more in the "the refs are not consistent enough and allow unknown factors to influence the game when the rules should be all that matter" camp) but I gotta say, that raises my eyebrow.

Vancouver is tied for 2nd in the league for the most number of misconducts this season. (Philadelphia has 17. Van and NJ have 15. Boston and Dallas have 13. All other teams are in the single digits. Detroit has NONE.)

We're 26th in the league for overall penalty minutes per game at 13.2. For comparison, Chicago is 10th, with 10.3 average PIM/G (despite having only one fewer major).

Looking at minor penalties alone, Chicago has received the fewest in the league, at 225. Vancouver, on the other hand, is 23rd in the league with 288. And in case anyone's wondering, Vancouver has only received 4 bench minors this season (half the number Chicago has received).

Having seen the liberties other teams feel comfortable taking with our players when compared to how heavily our players are penalized for doing the same thing or less, those numbers certainly do make one wonder if there isn't a bias against Vancouver.

Edited by poetica, 22 March 2012 - 12:31 PM.

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#23 canidiot

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:42 PM

hoping to even out the stats is the problem!!!!
that plays right into the "game management" theory.
the aves took 3 minors to 0 for the nucks in the first.
now they ramp up the hits and holds.
if a ref is expected to "manage a game he can no longer call marginal calls against the aves.
thats why it was a 2min minor for the most blatant elbow to the head that i have seen since moore hit nazzy.
i think if you play the mcsorrley hit on brashier in the same clip as the kieth on sedin. you will see more intent to put a player out of the game.
shannahan....the nfl is calling you a spineless b%*ch.

#24 CHIPS

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:42 PM

This is of course for those of you who look at things objectively and make judgements accordingly. If you are going to come into this with your subjective biases, there is no hope for you anyway so you might as well not bother with all this.

This is time on the PP minus time on the PK for this season. If anyone has reason to complain, it is the Colorado Avalanche. Look at that differential, the Avs have had about the same time spent on the PK as Vancouver, and yet, when you factor in calls that go their way, they have spent 60 MINUTES more killing penalties than Vancouver. I watch every Avs game, and nearly every Vancouver game, and in all honesty, the penalties are much more lopsided night in and night out against Colorado than they are for Vancouver.

And for those of you who will argue that Colorado is just a bad team and therefore are not able to draw penalties to get PP's, there is no way they are THAT much worse (as these stats show) and still able to be in playoff contention. It just would not happen.

1. Car: 87:55
2. Cbj: 87:20
3. Fla: 72:16
4. SJS: 61:36
5. Chi: 57:56
6. Tor 42:29
7. Det 38:42
...
13. NYI: 10:58
14. Buf: -0:53
15. Cgy: -3:28
16. Bos: -5:31
17. NJD: -7:11
...
23. Stl -34:48
24. Edm -35:10
25. Van -40:51
26. Wpg: -43:56
27. Was: -46:09
28. Ott: -64:34
29. Dal: -64:57
30. Col: -103:38


Here is the link:

http://www.nhl.com/i...penaltyKillTime


Doesn't it bother you that the 2 worst teams in the league, Car and CBJ, gets the MOST PP TIME BY FAR? Thanks for the list. This shows CLEAR BIAS for the league. They are CLEARLY trying to help the 2 worst teams in the league win more games.

And once we show that the league is trying to help some teams, we can also conclude that the league is going against certain teams.

Look at the Canadian teams. All of them are at rock bottom except Toronto. LMAO this is just exactly what many of us expected.

So here is a simplified version of that list:

Top: Worst US teams in the league.
Upper Half: 8th place US teams + Toronto
Bottom Half: Good US teams
Rock Bottom: Canadian teams+Col+Dal

Thanks a lot! Now we have valid evidence for what many of us knew for ages.

Edited by CHIPS, 22 March 2012 - 01:00 PM.

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#25 Northern

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

That was a good call. They need to do more of that. That nonsense after the whistle isn't hockey; it is garbage and needs to be cleaned up.


agreed, that was a great call. That crap after whistles has no place. How can they attract new hockey fans with everybody acting like little boys on the playground? Hard to take them seriously.

#26 Li'l Fra

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:48 PM

Hating the garbage reffing in the NHL right now!

Edited by Li'l Fra, 22 March 2012 - 12:48 PM.


#27 ECross

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:52 PM

Thanks to those of you who responded with some intelligence. It's a shame that there are a lot of Canuck fans out there that give the rest of you a bad name.

This is how I see the situation:

Referees have been known to make "reputation" calls; meaning, there are players who have earned the respect of the refs, those who have yet to earn the respect of the refs (many of the youngest players), and those who have earned the disrespect of the refs. So, when there are calls that depend on the ref's view of the situation, whether or not what happened actually warrants a penalty, they sometimes take into account who the player is and make their call accordingly.

Whether or not you like this or if it should be in the game is not what I am arguing for or against here, so I will just leave it at "reputation calls do exist."

With that established, I will continue by saying that, in my opinion, as well as the opinion of MANY people outside of the Lower Mainland, there are players on the Canucks who have earned disrespect, or at least yet to earn respect. The Sedins have dived and embellished calls in the past. That is a fact that cannot be argued if you aren't a Canucks homer. Burrows does juvenile things like the finger biting incident or the attempt to knee Duncan Keith in the groin as he was on top of him last night. Again, fact. Also, the Canucks as a whole are known to do a ton of complaining, whining, and woe-is-me-ing - that means the players, the coach, and even up to management. (How many other GM's do you see make a public spectacle of complaining about the refs to the extent that Gillis has? http://www.nhl.com/i...s.htm?id=560996 None.)

When all of these thing are objectively taken into consideration, is it really that surprising that, on a game-to-game basis, the Canucks don't get the benefit of the doubt or help from the refs?

If the Canucks cleaned up their act, meaning stopped complaining and certain players stopped digging for calls or doing things that completely destroys their integrity, then perhaps those split-second decisions made by refs would turn out differentely.

There is no conspiracy to do whatever it takes to make sure that the Canucks never win a Stanley Cup. Their own actions have earned them the reputation that the refs, consciously or unconsciously, and rightly or wrongly, take into account when having to make split-second calls. The refs don't have replays for penalties. The refs don't have multiple angles for penalties. The refs don't have slow-motion for penalties. All they have is human eyes to track a fast game with a ton of things going on, so it really isn't surprising that the Canucks' previous actions and reputations effect a decision made in 1/10th of a second.



Agree or disagree with me, but this argument is built on what I have seen and what I have gathered from other people who assess the situation from facts alone and not with an underlying preferential view in favour of the Vancouver Canucks. They are not the saints so many people try to make them out to be.

Edited by ECross, 22 March 2012 - 12:55 PM.


#28 manudibango

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:52 PM

The diferent in first and last is almost 200 minutes,TWOHUNDRED ,pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
very clear something wrong with the refs.THE NHL NOW IS NOT A FAIRPLAY LEAGUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by manudibango, 22 March 2012 - 12:54 PM.


#29 Amish Rake Fighter

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:57 PM

the refs are bad for both sides... last night there was a stupid penalty on Bickel (i think it was him) for a little face wash on Kassian, the refs also missed a too many men on the ice against Vancouver, and a goaltender interference against Chicago


It was Bollig and it was a dumb one.

It was a penalty but rookies don't get any leeway for crap like that
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#30 ECross

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:02 PM

The refs not only bring about justice via calling a slash, or hook, etc. The refs also bring about justice on a larger scale where players have done an injustice such as diving, whining, complaining, or being, for lack of better words, gutless, cowardly, rats.

As Aristotle said, justice is an intermediate or mean. The refs, as the bringers about of justice, are bringing things back to an intermediate.

Not only the present, but the past as well, comes into play when a man is administering justice.




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