ConnorFutureGM Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 A lot of Canucks' fans' expectations of what Luongo will return is a fantasy. The best indicator is to see past trades of goaltenders and see if there are any comparables. Lindback, FOR Bobrovsky FOR 2nd, 4th, 4th (2013) Giguere FOR Vesa Toskala and Jason Blake Varlomov FOR 1st conditional, 2nd conditional Lethonen FOR Ivan Vishnevskiy, 4th Bishop FOR 2nd Halak FOR Eller, Schultz Luongo, Krajicek, 6th FOR Todd Bertuzzi, Allen, Auld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Halak's value then was far higher than Luongo's is now, so I still don't know what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 A lot of Canucks' fans' expectations of what Luongo will return is a fantasy. The best indicator is to see past trades of goaltenders and see if there are any comparables. Lindback, FOR Bobrovsky FOR 2nd, 4th, 4th (2013) Giguere FOR Vesa Toskala and Jason Blake Varlomov FOR 1st conditional, 2nd conditional Lethonen FOR Ivan Vishnevskiy, 4th Bishop FOR 2nd Halak FOR Eller, Schultz Luongo, Krajicek, 6th FOR Todd Bertuzzi, Allen, Auld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the ES Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 How? Halak had been a backup goalie up until the playoffs, why do you think the price was so low? Because it was a risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Halak was the Schneider equivalent - the backup who had outplayed the starter. Look at his numbers from that regular season: 26-13-5, 5 SO, .924 SVP. Then he basically took the team on his back to the ECF as the 8th seed. He was also only 24 years old. There's really no comparison. Montreal "only" got what they got because it's not easy to trade a goaltender - always just a few buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the ES Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 The reason Lu will get a better return is: He's a proven star, which Halak wasn't at the time, and because Gillis will press for a fair price and not give him away for nothing like Gauthier seems to have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 Halak was the Schneider equivalent - the backup who had outplayed the starter. Look at his numbers from that regular season: 26-13-5, 5 SO, .924 SVP. Then he basically took the team on his back to the ECF as the 8th seed. He was also only 24 years old. There's really no comparison. Montreal "only" got what they got because it's not easy to trade a goaltender - always just a few buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Halak wasn't 33 years old with 9 years remaining on his contract that pays him $5.2M per year. Halak also did not ultimately dictate where he went. But, sure, whatever makes you sleep at night. Luongo's going to bring us back 5 All-Stars and we'll only lose 3 games next season, if that's what you want to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 - "It's not an easy goaltender to trade - always just a few buyer" Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 I'm pretty sure I asked you to stop telling me that I said stuff that I didn't in the last post, but I guess you didn't read. (Sigh) And yes Halak wasn't 33 and all that stuff, but he also wasn't a proven starter, let a lone a proven star goalie with the resume to prove it like Roberto. (And 5.2 is actually not a bad cap # for a star goalie like Roberto btw.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Gillis has to do what is best for the Canucks. With that being said, a lot of Canuck fans think it is simply the return on Luongo that drives him. The fact is when players asked to be traded (we all know he asked to be traded even if he didn't state it as such publicly) their value already goes down. Teams know that the team more or less needs to trade the player. Another thing that I mentioned earlier is his huge contract. Not only do teams know he is available but that they will have to commit to him for the next 10 years. He may retire earlier but teams can't count on that. Another factor is that he has a NTC. Whatever market there is for him or a goaltender in gneral, it just got shrunk. He probably wouldn't go to Columbus. Would he go to Toronto or Edmonton? Is he just waiting out for Florida? Then there's the fact he isn't a closer. Fans can rave about how great he played on stretches but the fact is he has hard a tie to shut the door when he is given the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lui's Knob Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Lp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConnorFutureGM Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 Your right about the trade request thing, everyone knows that it is eventually what will have to happen. but so far I think Gillis has done a great job of being patient and not throwing him away, like I said before I don't expect a home run or great deal out of this but Gillis has to get something worth while. The contract isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be, knowing Roberto like you do (if you are a fan of this team and have followed them constently since he got here) do you really think Lu will play till he is 42? I say he will retire at about 36 or 37, and the Cap hit is good. The Contract card is more used as a bargaining chip when negotiating a deal, I don't really think its a huge factor tbh. We'll he has stated he will be willing to waive it, maybe there are a couple teams he might not want to go too, but I don't believe Toronto is one of them, and the one's that he wouldn't want to go to probably aren't interested anyways. So though this is a factor to consider, judging by the fact himself that he doesn't want to be one to stand in the way of the team, I think he will waive to go when a deal is made. And that tie the door shut comment is very debatable, you can say there are times that he hasn't and you would be right, but there are just as many times where he has shut the door in tough situations, maybe more times he has than hasn't. And really you could say the same thing about a # of fellow star goalies (Lundqvist, Miller, exc.) So I don't really think that carries alot of weight or is a big deal in the trade negotiations honestly. Everyone knows we won't be getting a 1st line player, that's why there is no way we will make a deal with Chicago. As for everything else you say, I agree to an extent but I think it depends on the circumstances, like for Example, if the impact player we get is a 3rd line calibre player like Bozak, then there is maybe a chance we get a good prospect, or a 1st (one or another, but not both). It also depends on how you classify top notch prospect and B prospect. But basicly the points you made about that (and that I have just made in repliance) are why I think. Bozak, Biggs and a 2nd is fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the ES Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 And yes Halak wasn't 33 and all that stuff, but he also wasn't a proven starter, let a lone a proven star goalie with the resume to prove it like Roberto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera82 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I think it should be phrased like this. "AV's defense first system benefitted from Luongo" You make a decent point, obviously he helped a bit but it wasn't a big factor, and we had to go defense first when you think about it, we had gotten signficantly worse offensively with the lose of Bert and Jovo exc. I'm not an AV fan really so maybe I am a bit biased, but I think AV's impact on the team that season was overrated. IMO it was all/mostly Lu. I think the positive impact he made on those playoff years outways the negative impact. He has had his bad moment's no one is doubting that, I do think however as a team we have collapsed in those situations, just look against Chicago, the way we would let players just walk in and get good chances (Most notably Hossa in game 5) is atrocious. And you say no other elite goaltender has, but I don't recall any elite goaltender being able to carry a team through the playoffs when a team can't play well, why should we expect it here? If the entire team, skater and Lu can't play well enough we deserve to get eliminated. But insted everyone just pins all the lose on Lu and everyone else who played just as bad if not worse gets a free pass. Look at Lundqvist, as great as he is, it's not like he has had anymore playoff success than Luongo, in fact less. teams just get eliminated when they play bad, that's just the way hockey works, yes Lu didn't help the cause but why should we take his head, if everyone else had played better he would have too. And there are times when they leave him out to dry and he plays great, as i've already said. But you can't expect him to carry the team everytime we play like crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera82 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 There are really no comparables out of all those. The most comparables are the Halak and (past) Luongo deal (and even those aren't great comparables), the return will probably be somewhere in the middle of those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I cant see how we will get back even close to as much for Luongo as we gave up. Looking back we didn't really give up much of value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 You make a decent argument. Personally I just expected him to be better in the playoffs than in the regular season. Whether or not the team plays like crap I think you must admit that losing in blowouts had become a trend for Luongo in the playoffs more so than the regular season. I could understand that for a goalie of Dan Cloutier's caliber but not Luongo. Lundquist may not have as many wins as Luongo in the playoffs (25 to 32), but he has had 3 very respectable showings compared to Luongo's 1 or 1.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I classify a blue chip prospect as a player who can play top 6/top 4 while being on a cheap contract and or a player projected to be an elite player. A "B" prospect is a player who might turn out to be a 2nd liner/2nd pairing player but will take work and time to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashian Kassian Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 If that's the case, then I guess you also think that Schneider's not a proven starter? Halak was more proven as Montreal's backup then Schneider was as Vancouver's (more games played). It is if you're committed to paying that star goalie that amount of money until he's 42 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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