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Toughness proves to be a winning formula


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#91 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:29 AM

This is why you have to get guys who can play.

Not goons, otherwise they can do stupid things that can cost you.



Everyone wants to get Troy Brouwer, to add this major jolt of toughness.

But he only has 1 fight in his entire playoff career, and it was against Kevin Bieksa in a blowout game, and it wasn't even a fight, it was more like a scrum with punches being thrown.



Playoff toughness isn't what you guys think it is, and we don't lack it when compared to most teams other than the Bruins.
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#92 Salmonberries

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:29 AM

Toughness?pfffft were more than tough enough we just need timely goaltending

Au contraire. The last two times out the Bruins and the Kings kicked sand in our faces.
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#93 DeNiro

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:30 AM

Wasn't Zenon Kanopka a UFA last summer?

I think he would change the dynamic quite a bit if you slide him into Lapierre's spot.

Signed for less than Lapierre too!!

http://www.capgeek.com/player/913

http://www.capgeek.com/player/85


Kenopka's a good faceoff guy, and I wouldn't mind adding him. But Lapierre adds more to the team than Kenopka.

Who would you rather have out on the ice in the dying minutes of a 1 goal lead, Lapierre or Kenopka? I think I would go with Lapierre.

If we wanna add legitimate toughness, I think it needs to be someone that plays regular minutes in our top 9. That's why I still think Troy Brouwer would be the perfect addition to this team. I would give up any one of our prospects other than Jensen to get him.
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#94 Cromeslab

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:38 AM

Au contraire. The last two times out the Bruins and the Kings kicked sand in our faces.


Au contrarie we were out goaltended
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#95 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:39 AM

LOL. OK here is my cue to stop this discussion with you.


LOL

Yeah and you think Chara, Mitchell, Greene and Richards. Exc. are tough fighters.

I shouldn't have even replied considering Burrows has more fights than Brown & Horton.

And Ballard has more fights than Mitchell, & Boychuck.
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#96 Salmonberries

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:40 AM

Kenopka's a good faceoff guy, and I wouldn't mind adding him. But Lapierre adds more to the team than Kenopka.

Who would you rather have out on the ice in the dying minutes of a 1 goal lead, Lapierre or Kenopka? I think I would go with Lapierre.

If we wanna add legitimate toughness, I think it needs to be someone that plays regular minutes in our top 9. That's why I still think Troy Brouwer would be the perfect addition to this team. I would give up any one of our prospects other than Jensen to get him.

It is a dilemma alright, I'm not saying it isn't Unfortunately Lucic and Chara aren't available. The thing is, I don't think we're in that 'kinder gentler future' that Gillis thinks we live in today where toughness isn't needed in the playoffs. I fear that Gillis' pollyanna viewpoint is gonna cost us our shot.

I hope I'm wrong because I'm convinced things aren't going to change.
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#97 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:43 AM

You need to brush up on your knowledge about other teams players before starting this discussion.

You clearly have NO idea who Jordan Nolan or Dwight King are or have ever seen Boychuk or Chara fight.


I think you need to realize what toughness actually is in the playoffs, its not fighting.

Jordan Nolan and Dwight King are both productive players, that fight. Like Weise, Volpatti and Lappierre. They aren't goons, they actually bring things to the game like Lappierre, Weise and Volpatti do.

I'm sorry we aren't going to bring in a Jay Rosehill. If anything the guy we bring in would have to add more to the team than Lappierre does, or than Weise does. We aren't going to have a goon just for the sake of having a goon, because he isn't needed in the playoffs. That's what you seem to be missing.
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#98 Rypien37

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:44 AM

LOL

Yeah and you think Chara, Mitchell, Greene and Richards. Exc. are tough fighters.

I shouldn't have even replied considering Burrows has more fights than Brown & Horton.

And Ballard has more fights than Mitchell, & Boychuck.


Coming from the guy who thinks Jordan Nolan isn't tough.

Have you seen Greene play?

And Chara has beaten almost every guy he has ever fought.
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#99 Salmonberries

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:44 AM

Au contrarie we were out goaltended

That's the prevailing thought here in Vancouver alright.

Most folks around the circuit think we got our asses beat down though.
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#100 Rypien37

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:45 AM

I think you need to realize what toughness actually is in the playoffs, its not fighting.

Jordan Nolan and Dwight King are both productive players, that fight. Like Weise, Volpatti and Lappierre. They aren't goons, they actually bring things to the game like Lappierre, Weise and Volpatti do.

I'm sorry we aren't going to bring in a Jay Rosehill. If anything the guy we bring in would have to add more to the team than Lappierre does, or than Weise does. We aren't going to have a goon just for the sake of having a goon, because he isn't needed in the playoffs. That's what you seem to be missing.


Take a look at Volpatti's recent ice time and point production and compare it to Parros.

Kthxbye.

Edited by Rypien37, 17 February 2013 - 01:45 AM.

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#101 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:45 AM

Kenopka's a good faceoff guy, and I wouldn't mind adding him. But Lapierre adds more to the team than Kenopka.

Who would you rather have out on the ice in the dying minutes of a 1 goal lead, Lapierre or Kenopka? I think I would go with Lapierre.

If we wanna add legitimate toughness, I think it needs to be someone that plays regular minutes in our top 9. That's why I still think Troy Brouwer would be the perfect addition to this team. I would give up any one of our prospects other than Jensen to get him.


I don't think we need him. I mean we have physical presence, Lappierre, Volpatti, those guys bring that. Thats really what "toughness" is about in the playoffs, physicality, and grinding down the other team. Lappierre is great at getting in on the forecheck and hitting. Really a great 4th line center IMO.

If we can bring someone in who is a fighter but also brings some elements like a Lappierre that make him useful, then I would certiantly like to do it, but as you said those players don't come available often, or for a cheap price.
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#102 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:51 AM

Coming from the guy who thinks Jordan Nolan isn't tough.

Have you seen Greene play?

And Chara has beaten almost every guy he has ever fought.


Yes, they are physical players.

Toughness in playoffs (as I have been saying) Isnt fighting. There are rarely fights. Teams rarely put these goons in the line-up.

Those players all brought toughness in physicality, Lappierre, Volpatti and Weise bring that. Toughness isn't just fighting.

Really what we needed to work on is physicality and getting bigger. And we did that, That was something Gillis specifically key'd in on and talked about. And that the direction he went to make this team bigger.

Kassian is big and brings a physical presence, Volpatti and Weise have both proven to be productive enough in other areas to stay in the line-up, they bring that. Lappierre brings that physicality presence and grit. Even David Booth brought more physicality and size to the top 6. A nice upgrade in that department over the likes of Sammuelsson and Raymond.

We have that. That's what these teams have, grit, size and physicality, thats where we need to improve and we did is my point, adding a goon isn't the magical key to winning a cup for this team, it is staying healthy, getting consistent preformences and getting good goaltending.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 17 February 2013 - 01:53 AM.

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#103 DeNiro

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:52 AM

It is a dilemma alright, I'm not saying it isn't Unfortunately Lucic and Chara aren't available. The thing is, I don't think we're in that 'kinder gentler future' that Gillis thinks we live in today where toughness isn't needed in the playoffs. I fear that Gillis' pollyanna viewpoint is gonna cost us our shot.

I hope I'm wrong because I'm convinced things aren't going to change.


I don't know if that's true exactly. He would have never traded Hodgson for Kassian if that was. And he wouldn't have signed a guy like Vandermeer.

He definitely wants to add toughness to the team. I think you've gotta give him more credit than that. The problem comes down to us having limited cap space and limited assets to make trades. It would be nice if we had a bunch of young players to trade like LA did, but we don't.

We'll see what happens come trade deadline though. I could see him adding a couple pieces to address this. If we can somehow pry guys like Morrow, Neil, or Brouwer away from their teams, I'd be more than happy if Gillis gave up a first round pick and a prospect for them. The time to do something is now. We may never have a better team than this one.
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#104 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 01:56 AM

I don't know if that's true exactly. He would have never traded Hodgson for Kassian if that was. And he wouldn't have signed a guy like Vandermeer.

He definitely wants to add toughness to the team. I think you've gotta give him more credit than that. The problem comes down to us having limited cap space and limited assets to make trades. It would be nice if we had a bunch of young players to trade like LA did, but we don't.

We'll see what happens come trade deadline though. I could see him adding a couple pieces to address this. If we can somehow pry guys like Morrow, Neil, or Brouwer away from their teams, I'd be more than happy if Gillis gave up a first round pick and a prospect for them. The time to do something is now. We may never have a better team than this one.


The only issue is where would those guys fit.

If Dallas isn't in a playoff position (and even maybe if they are) Morrow could be pryed away quite easily, although where would he fit is the problem. Brouwer probably is someone WSH will hang onto, some goes for Neil.

We need a LH guy who can take big draws & be counted on in big defensive situations, & killing penalties, so Keslers defensive responsibilities can be cut back (Which would keep him healthier) and so Henrik doesn't have to be used as the only LH guy we have to take big draws.
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#105 Cromeslab

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:03 AM

That's the prevailing thought here in Vancouver alright.

Most folks around the circuit think we got our asses beat down though.


Definitely a valid perception,thing is our captain is not a fighter,nor Daniel,we have to find a way to let these guys do their thing,and Be protected the league sure as hell wont do it.....I think Kass is a step in the right direction,but we do need another deterrent someone who can play and take a bit of the load off.some timely goaltending goes a long way too
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#106 Salmonberries

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:06 AM

I don't know if that's true exactly. He would have never traded Hodgson for Kassian if that was. And he wouldn't have signed a guy like Vandermeer.

He definitely wants to add toughness to the team. I think you've gotta give him more credit than that. The problem comes down to us having limited cap space and limited assets to make trades. It would be nice if we had a bunch of young players to trade like LA did, but we don't.

We'll see what happens come trade deadline though. I could see him adding a couple pieces to address this. If we can somehow pry guys like Morrow, Neil, or Brouwer away from their teams, I'd be more than happy if Gillis gave up a first round pick and a prospect for them. The time to do something is now. We may never have a better team than this one.

I hope you're right, but my gut says Gillis has found religion as a hockey pacifist and won't do anything to protect his key players in spite of direct personal experience that screams that he should.

Again, I really hope that I'm wrong here. Been a Canuck fan since the Lester Patrick Cup days of the late sixties.
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#107 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:08 AM

I hope you're right, but my gut says Gillis has found religion as a hockey pacifist and won't do anything to protect his key players in spite of direct personal experience that screams that he should.

Again, I really hope that I'm wrong here. Been a Canuck fan since the Lester Patrick Cup days of the late sixties.


Think Kassian will. And we also have Vandy in our back pocket which is nice, if we ever need that goon presence.

Really we have to stand up for our stars as a group. We have the muscle & size to do it, even if those players aren't goons, just next time someone takes liberties with one of our players, we have to take liberties back. It's not like we need to bring a goon in to do that though. Cause he likely wouldn't be available to do it anyways. It's just something that has to be done by the guys on the ice.
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#108 Cromeslab

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:11 AM

Gillis has enough problems with the goaltending conundrum he created,let alone addressing team toughness
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#109 DeNiro

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:29 AM

The only issue is where would those guys fit.

If Dallas isn't in a playoff position (and even maybe if they are) Morrow could be pryed away quite easily, although where would he fit is the problem. Brouwer probably is someone WSH will hang onto, some goes for Neil.

We need a LH guy who can take big draws & be counted on in big defensive situations, & killing penalties, so Keslers defensive responsibilities can be cut back (Which would keep him healthier) and so Henrik doesn't have to be used as the only LH guy we have to take big draws.


Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Kesler Burrows
Morrow Schroeder Raymond
Higgins Lapierre Hansen

Morrow plays with the type of intensity this team needs more of. He plays the game the right way, much like Shane Doan. Even at 34 he could bring alot of value to this team.

An addition like that would put us over the top IMO.
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#110 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:36 AM

Sedin Sedin Kassian
Booth Kesler Burrows
Morrow Schroeder Raymond
Higgins Lapierre Hansen

Morrow plays with the type of intensity this team needs more of. He plays the game the right way, much like Shane Doan. Even at 34 he could bring alot of value to this team.

An addition like that would put us over the top IMO.


He has been terrible this year, and last year wasn't very good.

Shouldn't take much, it would likely be a deal like that Jamie Langenbrunner deal was (From NJD to DAL) a few years ago.

I would go like this personally since our 3rd line has been so good.

Daniel - Henrik - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Burrows
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Morrow - Lappierre - Higgins

The issue then becomes having only Henrik as a LH faceoff guy. I think adding him becomes overkill on wingers honestly (that we don't need) unless we ship one out and bring in a center or something.
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#111 DeNiro

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:44 AM

He has been terrible this year, and last year wasn't very good.

Shouldn't take much, it would likely be a deal like that Jamie Langenbrunner deal was (From NJD to DAL) a few years ago.

I would go like this personally since our 3rd line has been so good.

Daniel - Henrik - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Burrows
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Morrow - Lappierre - Higgins

The issue then becomes having only Henrik as a LH faceoff guy. I think adding him becomes overkill on wingers honestly (that we don't need) unless we ship one out and bring in a center or something.


Exactly, which is why his value is low. I doubt they re-sign him so he could likely be had for a 2nd round pick and a prospect.

He hasn't been terrible. He's still putting up .5 PPG. Most of his value comes from his physical play, grit, and leadership though. He's the type of veteran you win with in the playoffs.

I don't think you can ever have too much depth up front. Look at the toll going to the finals took on the team 2 years ago. If we had Morrow on the fourth line that year, he could have moved up to the second line when Raymond went down instead of having to use tambellini. We'd easily have the best 4th line in the league.

Edited by DeNiro, 17 February 2013 - 02:44 AM.

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#112 Chip Kelly

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:56 AM

The Canucks seem to be confused of what exactly they want out of their 4th line. Do they want bangers and crashers or 4 balanced lines that can all score?
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#113 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 03:00 AM

Exactly, which is why his value is low. I doubt they re-sign him so he could likely be had for a 2nd round pick and a prospect.

He hasn't been terrible. He's still putting up .5 PPG. Most of his value comes from his physical play, grit, and leadership though. He's the type of veteran you win with in the playoffs.

I don't think you can ever have too much depth up front. Look at the toll going to the finals took on the team 2 years ago. If we had Morrow on the fourth line that year, he could have moved up to the second line when Raymond went down instead of having to use tambellini. We'd easily have the best 4th line in the league.


We could use him on the 4th, although he is worth much less than that, thats an overpayment.
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#114 ChuckNORRIS4Cup

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 03:26 AM

This is why I always liked Burke! He's out there to win, and he will win buy intimidation.
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#115 Boudrias

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:21 AM

Take a look at our current top 9.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Higgins - Kesler - Kassian
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen


ONE, count it, ONE player out of the forwards who will be playing the majority of the time, in key situations, is tough.

We only have 2 legitimately tough forwards on our whole roster. Volpatti and Kassian.

If you honestly think we are tough enough, I won't bother arguing. Just be sure to bring this thread up during the playoffs.

edit: Kings had: Brown, Richards, King, Nolan, Clifford, Fraser, Greene, Mitchel and Penner who either brought big size and hits or toughness to the table. In NO way were we tougher then them, and it showed.

When a player like Dustin Brown is your captain, you know you have a gritty team.

When you start talking 'tough' many fans quickly equate that with fighting. It might be part of the equation but is far from the total answer. You ID'd Kassian as the only top 9 forward who is legit tough. I might add Kesler and Burrows to that list but IMO they're a little light to be risking their skillset on playing to physical a role. Kust the other night they were talking about Kesler's list of injuries and that he had to change his style or risk his career. Burrows has changed his game but had to. He was injured two playoffs running.

No it isn't all about fighting. Physical teams are hard on the puck and yes they also finish checks. It is a tough game to play thru 82 games and then a potential 24 game playoff stretch. Attrition is a factor. Physical players can take out finess players and suffer injury themselves. They create space for their own finess players. 180 to 190 pound players have a tough time playing physical hockey against 200 to 220 pound players. Championship teams have the ability to elevate their physical play when it counts. It is no mistake when you see finess players disappear during playoffs.

IMHO the Canucks are no where near big or physical enough as their roster sits. AV has been flirting with a physical game with the Minnie game last week as close as I have seen to success. I am not sayin that Van cannot win playing a transition possession game but the odds would be better with a better physical component. As much as I like these players they do not bring enough of a physical edge to be on a CUP challenging team: Weise, Raymond, Schroeder, Ebbett and even Higgens. Not suggesting that all these players have to go but I suggest three do.
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#116 Understand

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:06 PM

The Canucks seem to be confused of what exactly they want out of their 4th line. Do they want bangers and crashers or 4 balanced lines that can all score?


This is very true. They have guys like Weise / Volplatti, who are not good at scoring nor big and tough crashers / fighters. They are nothing.
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#117 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:47 AM

I don't understand all the Volpatti hate, he's a pretty respectable 4th line guy. Throws a couple good hits a game, skates and checks well and fights when needed. And does a pretty respectable job. Obviously Gillis believes in him since he didn't waive him down to the wolves through the lockout because of fear of being claimed.

Half the 4th liners and grinders CDC ends up drooling over are guys that have only had 1 successful year in the role and then usually regressed by the next season, it's hard to always make a positive impact in that amount of ice time. And the guys that can do it year to year, your Shawn Thorntons, Brad Mays, Travis Moens, and Chris Neil's are always paid twice as much as the rest and are almost never on the trade block.

Another note I'd like to add, once you trade for a Jared Boll or whoever you're targeting (and I do like Boll don't get me wrong) there's no guarantee they're going to come over to a new team and succeed. (Coltan Orr last year)Especially if they're leaving the first team they've ever played for. When you leave behind those connections and comfort ability it can make it very difficult to perform your role well. Especially coming to a hockey hotbed like Vancouver

Edited by WonderTwinPowers, 18 February 2013 - 09:53 AM.

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#118 Salmonberries

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:36 AM

This is very true. They have guys like Weise / Volplatti, who are not good at scoring nor big and tough crashers / fighters. They are nothing.

Mike Gillis seems to like small gritty annoying fourth line guys that can take a good ass whupping.
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#119 WonderTwinPowers

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:44 AM

Mike Gillis seems to like small gritty annoying fourth line guys that can take a good ass whupping.


Our 4th line averages about 6'1.5 and 212 pounds that's not that small. And I don't think Volpatti just takes an "ass whupping" he's an effective 4th liner, as is Lappy. I'm not the biggest Weise fan either mostly due to his inconsistency in taking the body more then anything. But he's not as bad as CDC makes him out to be.
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#120 Brazen_Slugger

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:20 AM

Toughness comes out in the playoffs when the whistles get put away. This is why we will continue to lose, no matter how much success we have in the regular season.

Mark my words, same thing will happen in April/May just like the last few years past. Team's know how to win against the Canuck's is with toughness and intimidation.

It's a shame. This is a great team and it is being limited/exposed by this one underlying factor.

I've been saying this for a while now. Canuck's are major hypocrites on this issue.

Continue to stress how 4th liners need to play a regular shift and be able to "play" not just fight.

Yet Volpatti played all of 4 minutes tonight, and has 1 goal in each of his 3 seasons with the Canucks.

He is an OK fighter, but if you are going to ice a player like that, why not an established heavy weight. Makes zero sense.


We need this guy on our team
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM58vqIaK2Q

In all seriousness, I agree. It's time to fight fire with fire. We need that intimidation factor so that our skilled players feel safe and not need to worry about players like that midget rat face Marchand using the Sedins as punching bags. We can't have Burrows, Kesler, and Bieksa just to name a few, gooning it up. We need them on the ice and not in the box. We have overall team toughness but have seen that time and time again it doesn't seem to cut it in the playoffs. Im ok with Volpatti and Weise but they need to be rotated in and out of the lineup depending on who we face. I will feel alot better going into the playoffs knowing that the team is better prepared for the Bruins and bigger teams like the Sharks and Blues. I will lose my mind if we get gooned up in the playoffs again and do nothing about it. Parros would have been perfect or a player of his nature... oh well, hopefully Gillis brings in this "missing piece" or we're just going to get pushed around again in the playoffs.

Something to read into:
http://www.torontosu...-top-tough-guys
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