DSVII
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Posts posted by DSVII
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12 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:
Blame Gillis.
But I've been told to not get stuck into the past
you want me to go further back?
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24 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:
Yea you mean when Tanev is actually able to play hockey right? Hes had 2 full seasons under his belt without injury, but played through 3 major injuries last post season and was ineffective.
I know you're typing up your magnum opus response, but i'll chime in quickly here and you can add it to your chapters
You can thank your buddy boy Benning for that when he fired Mike Burnstein and replaced him with Celebrini. Again, a GM's job isn't all about drafting, but ensuring all other aspects of the organization are running smoothly. His decision to fire Burnstein in 2015 and revamp the athletic training and performance program cost us years of prime Tanev.
The below is cap dollars lost to injury per season, blue bar being league average ranges.
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55 minutes ago, Dazzle said:
See, that's the thing about this fanbase... they just keep going back to this Benning period, over and over. All the while ignoring (over and over Gillis' mistakes, particularly drafting. The guy only grabbed two players in the first round, and busted the rest of them, except Hutton. That's awful for 6 years of work.
This fanbase is absolutely stuck in the past with almost no ability to see things in the present or in the future.
Again, Dazzle, if I gave you these first round picks and a hockey news magazine with draft rankings over eight years:
6th, 23rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 10th
and I give Gillis/Benning/Blank slate GM these picks over five years:
10th, 22nd, 29th, 26th, 9th
You will more likely than not walk away with more impact players than blank slate GM. I don't know what you are expecting? The fact that Gillis got Horvat from this is actually pretty reasonable when you consider NHL hit rates lower in the draft. Picks in the top 5 are almost always 90% guaranteed to be an NHL player and make an impact.
That combined with the fact that Gillis had no control of his farm team until the very end in 2013, you factor that into the evaluation. A good farm system is essential for ensuring your late rounders developer properly and that was a significant advantage Benning had over Gillis (with only Demko to show for it for 8 years)
Draft capital.
I'm sure if we swapped Benning and Gillis's draft picks, Gillis will out perform Benning. The chasm in draft capital between the two was so huge it's almost not an apples to apples comparision.
I also find it ironic that you're saying the fanbase is stuck in the past, but you are reaching even further into the past on this? Gillis spent draft capital for the cup runs, that was a return on that investment that he could not get on the draft table (which was negligible, but the Chicago Wolves hampering development of his picks played a part there, he addressed it with Utica.)
Benning spent his draft capital and we still have a 27th ranked prospect pool (i understand Petey/Hughes graduated right away, but they are an exception, not the rule thus far, and to have this after 8 years of bottom 10 finishes is simply inexcusable)
QuoteSee, that's the thing about this fanbase... This fanbase is absolutely stuck in the past with almost no ability to see things in the present or in the future.
The real thing about this fanbase is really the amount of self deprecation and loathing that just crops up sometimes when people make this generalized commentary, the 2011 riots may have played a part, but we aren't any worse or better than any other fanbase out there. There's literally nothing that different about us than other fanbases.
This is also a knowledgeable fanbase, and knows what a rebuild, and retool is, and what end of the pig makes the mess for the most part
I'd give us as a collective more credit. Don't look down on the group.
I also point out the fact again, that you are accusing the group of not being able to get past the last 8 years by pulling examples from the last 10 years. but it's great, because we have these discussions, i much rather enjoy them.
Lastly,
I'm very happy to talk about Benning without making reference to the Stanley Cup and Prez Trophy teams of the Gillis era, but it's the pro-benning side that keeps bringing them up and thus it needs to be addressed. If i compare Benning to a league average team during his tenure I suspect it won't look too good on his part either.
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The longer this discussion goes, and the more defending 'arguments' I'm reading. The more I think I may have been too generous with my 3/10 and 4/10 (ownership meddling handicap) rating.
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3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:
Sound like my ex bud. Cant wait til I have time to reply to you? Wasnt going to half ass it. I said I would. You are waiting so eagerly to hear back from me. Want an autograph and a selfie? You sure want my attention pretty damn bad.
Your posts are actually a better argument against your position than anything I can ever hope to type. So please do continue
6 hours ago, kilgore said:Keep digging.
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1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:
I’ve lost the plot?
I re-summarize my posts. In fact, from all the posts you couldn't even reply to because frankly, you have no good counter argument.
Your "woe is me, Benning had it so tough" arguments make no sense, because every GM had to deal with 1.) Flat Cap 2.) Expansion Draft , and JB dealing with these same circumstances, is probably in the bottom 10th percentile of the league for Wins, cap space management and draft capital accumulation.
The Covid outbreak happened when the team had <10% chance of making playoffs. And had to play at a 107 point pace from February onwards to even make playoffs. The outbreak was March 30th.
Benning tried to make playoffs every year, he sold the farm and mortgage picks to do this since 2015. We've entered each draft with less draft capital than a 15th place team. And are capped like a top 3 team. That is Benning's fault.
The cap recapture was an arbitrary retro the league did, so I don't blame GMMG for that. Now as for Benning, could he have possibly made a move to avoid it? It was on the table and if he couldn't execute to stop such a big obstacle on his 2,3,4,5 year plan, then that's on him
Now back to question one. Which is a twist on this thread.
What good did Benning do for this franchise over 8 years if you remove Petey/Hughes/Demko from the equation?
QuoteBuddy you guys compare a GM who was handed a cup contending roster to a GM who had to deal with the aftermath of selling the entire future and failed to provide prospects and any real hope for a future outside of Horvat.
Alf could have done the same job as Gillis. It didnt take rocket science to toss away picks and prospects to add toDaniel
Henrik
Edler
Salo
Burrows
Kesler
Hansen
Luongo
Schneider
Raymond
comparing a GM who had to rebuild from absolutely nothing to a GM who had the green light to go all in is absolutely ludicrous. Give your head a shake man
The notion that a core is instantly guaranteed a cup without any tweaks or active management is comically ignorant. (Just ask Edmonton and Toronto how elite cores are working for them). This 'core' missed playoffs two of the three years before GMMG came in. He also did with Dubas couldn't, and negotiate the twins to team friendly deals as UFA.
Putting together a stanley cup team actually does take rocket science, that's why teams have capologists and front offices. That's why Benning is being dragged through the mud throwing picks and prospects away for Clendenning, Sbisa, Sutter, Dickinson, OEL, etc...
Going by your logic, why didn't Benning win with Petey and Hughes and Demko in their ELCs? This core is obviously good enough to contend with. Because anything after drafting your core is basically auto pilot right?
Again, back to my question number 2. Gillis only had a few months after trading Cory Schneider to restock the cupboards when it was evidently against the Owner's wishes. He put his neck on the line to try and get a rebuild going and was canned for it before he had a chance to do anything, he even had Dylan Larkin on his draft board with the #6 pick, which combined with Bo would have been a good start down the middle. What more would you have him do since he was fired? What was your expectation?
You're being completely ignorant of how hockey works and twisting everything to your narrative. I'm sorry to say, but Benning's rep is as one of the worst GMs in our franchise and league. And no matter how much you capitalize your words in a FACEBookMEme Argument, it's not changing that.
Let's not forget the hilarity of this moving goalpost.
2009-2011 - this is an auto-win cup core!
2012-2014 - dead in the water, worthless, untradeable.
QuoteGillis impact on the future was devastating. Benning at least put a bright light at the end of the tunnel, but you lack the patience to wait and see it through. Its just like when the twins struggled immensely from their draft year til they were 24 turning 25. Without the WCE, they would have been ruined and possibly moved out or gone back home. Bennings picks had to step in and produce right away because the guys who could have stayed another couple years, chose to retire early leaving no choice but to throw the kids in and let them play.
Their is plenty of talent under 25 that still have yet to make their mark. Have some bloody patience.
On the contrary, this market was screaming for patience. Accumulating draft picks when we weren't good and not rush any of the kids.
What Benning did in making his win now trades is not patience.
Throwing Virtanen, McCann, Hoglander, Podz straight into the NHL is not patience.
Every aspect of this org, from the scouting staff (Brackett), the training staff (Burnstein), the front office (Gilman) has been rotted to the core by Benning. And you cheer this on.
It will take 5-10 years to get rid of the rot that Benning has left on this franchise. And you know what. I am very patient about it. I'm not going anywhere.
Quoteleaving no choice but to throw the kids in and let them play.
There was a choice. Sign cheap UFAs and rebuild. That is an excuse. Benning was able to deploy 30-35% of the cap to his original contracts. he had the flexibility. He was just plain bad.
He ended up paying premiums from a position of strength (Sutter, OEL, to a lesser extent JT) because the concept of cap space as an asset was alien to him. While teams now are squeezing us to get out of his mistakes (Dickinson,Garland,myers)
Anyways, this has been a fun morning, cheerio!
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15 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:
Take notes bud 2012, 2013… 2014????????? Way to keep things rollin Gillis…. DOWNHILL Lmfao
You've lost the plot my friend. Take care.
Do try and answer those questions when you have a chance. I'm genuinely curious.
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1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:
He did not win. Boston won. And Boston continued dominating. Vancouver was dead in the water 3 years after appearing in the finals with no hope in hell. No future. Nothing. Done. Dead. Thanks Gillis for almost winning a cup, but it cost the future
Take notes everyone. Winning the president's trophy (2012) and the division (2013) means you're dead in the water. Can't compare to those meaningful games in March the last 8 years....give your head a shake man.
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13 hours ago, AnthonyG said:
No its just comical the comment about the “disaster” left behind, yet his cleaning duties were farrrrrrr heavier than PA and JR are tasked with.
Also had to deal with
a flat cap
Cap recapture
2 expansion drafts
The only thing comical about this whole thing is the amount of fluff you're trying to buffer JB with.
The bolded would be more convincing if 31 other GMs also didn't go through the same thing, with a fair share of them thriving in that environment. This is an excuse in the purest form and does not mitigate anything on Benning's part.
QuoteCOVID outbreak that shut the team down for an entire month mid season (never happened before and the only team ever to deal with it) along with the most insane scheduling to close out that season after a virus just ruined an entire team and ended one guys career for sure.
Two things about the outbreak:
1.) It happened March 30th, by then the season was more than half over and lost. The Canucks had a sub 10% chance of making playoffs one month before the outbreak and needed to be playing at a 107 pace from February onwards to make playoffs. Benning's prized acquisition in Toffoli almost single handedly sinking our season. It sucked, but it was not the reason why we missed playoffs. The 2020 offseason was. Benning lost the 2021 year before it even began because he 'ran out of time'.
2.) If anything, the Covid outbreak highlighted Benning's shortcomings as a leader even more. Where was his leadership when that happened? It took JT Miller stepping up a week after the outbreak and telling the media that the team was uncomfortable playing and getting the league to reschedule and give the team the rest they needed.
QuoteLittle to no assets the day he took over to accelerate any type of rebuild or retool
He inherited a 100+ point team that made playoffs the following year. With moveable assets like Kesler, Hamhuis and Garrison and 30%-35% of the cap to play with (by the start of the 2015-16 season, roughly $26M of the $73M in annual team cap hit were new contracts signed by Benning) . That's more than enough cap flexibility for any rebuild/retool. Plus A future captain in Bo #1 goalie in Markstrom, a top pairing in Edler/Tanev.
Even when he chose to sit on the assets like Burrows and Hansen till they depreciated to nothing, he still got assets for them, as opposed to now where Canucks have to pay to get Benning's contracts off the books.
Give me the 2015 team and the upcoming drafts to rebuild/retool with over what JR/PA took over any day. Benning made this team miss out on a generation of talent.I'll pre-empt you as well. Yes, Gillis failed to provide Benning with a prospect pool in the few months he had left in his time here when decided to rebuild against Aquilini's wishes. The above still left Benning a pretty impressive template to start with and put his mark on the team.
QuoteWhat was your actual expectation for JB when he took over?
I’m very curious to know.
1.) Up til 2015, go for it, then rebuild.
2.) Be mindful of a buyer and seller's market. Don't trade away picks and sign cheap veterans to mentor the picks you do get. Buy low, sell high.
3.) Develop the prospects you draft rather than rush them
4.) Manage the cap properly and see cap space as a weapon to use when rebuilding.
5.) When rebuilding, enter each draft with more draft capital than a playoff team
Believe it or not, I started out as pro-Benning, defended him up until 2016. Walking away from that year with less assets than a playoff team while you're third last was inexcusable. It felt like every other team was either gunning for the cup or rebuilding with intent. Canucks under Benning were just....there.
I'm very curious with you as well, a reverse of this thread's premise.
1.) Can you say what long term good Benning has done for the club without mentioning three draft picks? Petey/Hughes/Demko? Because that's really it after 8 years of futility.
2.) What did you expect Gillis to leave Benning with on the farm considering he's only a year removed from trying to go for it as a President's trophy winner and trading picks away for one last shot in 2013? He only had time to do one rebuild move trading Schneider away for Bo, and trying to rebuild against the owner's wishes which literally got him fired? What more could he have done in your eyes?
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Keep him. In 2-3 years teams will pay a lot to have him.
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42 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:
Gillis did no wrong though right?
smh
Not even the argument smh.
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Going by JB's estimate. Two years ago
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1 hour ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:
You might not like Myers. But that is just a meh contract. And that was proven by Gudbranson. You'd think Gudbranson wasn't even good enough for the KHL by the time fans like you were done with him. And yet he signed another 4 million per year contract in the NHL.
So by this logic, because Benning created a market demand for OEL, that was not a bad contract? There are other bad GMs out there ya know.
I'll also bite on that strawman. The mistake with Gudbranson was not necessarily the contract, but the assets given up to acquire the player.
Myers is a serviceable #4, being paid like a top 2. And therefore a bad contract. Unless we want to define what bad means to you? I mean judging by your own words, the bar seems as low as not being a max term/cap contract. Just because Benning didn't pay a $3-4 mil guy an 8x8 doesn't mean paying him a 6x5 isn't a mistake/bad deal. it still is an overpayment.
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30 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:
Without it , the Canucks wouldn't have a single bad contract at the end of his tenure. But hey , worst GM in history.
If we waived Myers or Poolman last December. How confident would you be that a team would scoop him up? Because hey, there was only one bad contract right?
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22 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:
It would probably be :
Loui Eriksson!
And the same ppl would say that is why he is one of the worst GM's in league history. Even though it wasn't a max deal, Benning signed no max deals. And he probably took less to play with the Sedins.
I think without the OEL trade, Bennings legacy should be a fair bit better. But I don't think it would be. People were tired of him and just wanted to lynch him.
The average NHL GM's body of work is fairly bad. I think Benning was average. But without OEL, no max deals and drafting Petterson, Hughs, Podz, Hogs, Demko and Silovs, I'd say his legacy would be a little above average. if 5/10 is average, I'd say he was 6.5/10 without the OEL trade. Does that make me an official Benning apologist card carrying member ? I dont know.
Oh yes. Let's remove possibly the single worst transaction in franchise history from the record, and then he's probably mediocre!
Signing a max deal is not an indicator of a bad GM, it's knowing the context where you should and shouldn't do it. Petey is going to get a max deal and that's not likely to turn out to a bad thing for instance.
The thing about Benning isn't that there is one transaction you can pin it on, but a cascade of consistently bad decisions that add up to a pile of crap. The offseason of 2020 didn't happen just because of Loui, but also because of Myers, Pearson, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel etc....it takes a holistic view to properly gauge the damage he's done to the franchise.
3/10 or 4/10 if i want to pin the blame on Aqua. And each point is essentially for (Petey/Hughes/Demko)
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As much as I love to rag on Benning....reviving a 2-3 year old thread
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I was originally of the opinion that we have to trade one of Boeser, Garland or both. But with the way the cap increase is structured, a saavy team will pounce on us to acquire Boeser and Garland for pennies on the dollar because we are on the cap crunch, and in 2025/2026 the cap is projected to go up by 5-6 mil. This would instantly make both those players bargains because they'll appreciate in value due to the lower % of cap they represent in 2 years time.
I know it goes against everything this team has ever done, which has been taking the short cuts and competing now at the expense of the future, but the team has to seriously consider standing pat and letting the cards fall where they fall and then wait for the cap bump in 2025 to go for it after extending Petey.
By then, every team will have more cap space so the squeeze will not depress their trade values if we do decide to trade one of Boeser or Garland. Garland's $4.95 M in a 90M salary cap world is a bargain, as is Boeser's 6M and they are top 6 players, we wil be able to get more for them in that offseason than this year.
If we have to part with them, trade them a year from now rather than the $83M world this summer.
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Let's assume Detroit gets ASP to replace Hronek. And presuming one of the C's we want does not drop to us.
Would we be opposed to drafting Tom Wallinder? In fact, let's say we have the choice between ASP and Wallinder. Who is the preference?
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Just gonna screencap this for posterity before a contrarian votes just for the sake of it. Rare to have 100% consensus here
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17 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said:
I've never bought into the clobbered in the first round just because everyone says it. I mean, look at Panthers this year.
Plus, we'll be getting better. These guys are entering their prime along with having two stellar goalies. We're not far from competing.
Fans deserve a few years of winning or at least being better than the Benning years and going for it with the stars we've waited on.
Difference is Panthers were a consistent playoff team and a president's trophy winner the year before. Our teams are light years apart. I think if this team can't make playoffs in the next two to three years, rebuild.
We definitely need to go for it now, but in a measured way, and luckily Allvin is better at pro scouting than Benning. But as a fan that wants this team to succeed in a sustainable fashion, there has to be a hard cut off, a cold rational cut off, where if this core shows that it does not have what it takes, the team has to break it up and take the step back and rebuild. We can't retool forever because it is a vicious cycle that feeds into itself.
Forget the Benning years, they are a sunk cost now, do what's right for the franchise in this moment. For now, it's going for it, but there will come a time when we shouldn't be sentimental or go for a short term gratification fix.
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On 3/8/2023 at 4:46 PM, kilgore said:
Folks who haven't reset to the retool yet are just in for more self inflicted pain.
The tank dream is dead. At least for this season. I don't know if some are confusing our democratic election system with the NHL And fans with voters. its not a democracy. And the world is not fair. We live in a capitalist society where money rules. And only the very wealthy get to own the sports teams, and decide on how they want to run it. We are simply along for the ride.
Now maybe there is a tiny bit of influence in embarrassing an owner if enough fans b@#$# about some aspect of the team, and the media shows pick up on that, and eventually the grumbling gets all the way up to Francesco. But I really don't think we sway the Aquilini's much in how they spend their money.
For the most part, we have to go along with the owners vision. We've had to for all of Bennings disastrous torturous years while he ran around trying to bandaid the team for Francesco every Summer.
We are still working with the same plan that Frank had for JB in 2014. But there is a big difference. Firstly we have competent experienced managers and coaches. We have bonified stars ready to break out, and actual good veteran signings lately. This retool has a real chance of getting us to the dance. We now have a legit top RHD. Yes it probably will be a one and done team as we will have no futures to build from, but hopefully we can get near the top of the league with Petey and Hughes, and Miller and Demko, for a few years before it all comes crashing down.
A proper rebuild there would be more chance to build something sustainable, with a farm bursting at the seams. But with a well engineered retool, we can still get to contender status, even if its temporary. But if it works it will be quicker. Whatever it yields, we have to cheer it on and hope it works don't we? Even if it means winning more games down the stretch than is good for us draft wise. What else can the Canucks proletariat do?
At the very least can he install cup holders in the seats? Went to a BC lions game yesterday and I marveled at the fact that I had a place to put my drink.
I think Hronek is also propped up by his deployment, similar to how we did with Hodgson. Seider was having a sophomore slump and Detroit literally had no one else to go to. I'm not saying he's a bad RHD, he's a legit top 4 RHD. But I'd like to see the games first before annointing him that.
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3 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:
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5 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:
It's not a bottom 10 team. The 2015-18 Canucks were a bottom 10 team. The rebuilding Blackhawks,SJS, Habs, Wings and Ducks are bottom 10 teams. The aged out Capitals and Blues are likely a bottom 10 teams.
The Canucks are what ? The 5th-6th youngest team in the league, with elite players just entering their prime years.
With the addition of Hronek, and the teams renewed commitment to to team defence (Tocchet). The D should be passable next season.
The big question is will they collapse in the first quarter of the season? The one thing I cannot guarantee.
On paper though, I say they do have the players to compete for a playoff spot.
At this point, this team is a bottom 15 team paid like a top 3 team.
Hypotheticals and paper is fine. But we need to see it happen and we just haven't. Even the bubble run was due to a once in a lifetime pandemic pause that gave the team a play in. We still haven't seen this group succeed consistently over an 82 game stretch with an above 15th result.
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On 5/26/2023 at 10:25 AM, NewbieCanuckFan said:
We play in a weak division.
Sorry, that's all I got.
The division has quietly improved. Four teams made playoffs. Three went to the 2nd round and 1 is in the conference finals. Calgary had a down year with Sutter but not a pushover. The only team that is gonna be easy match next year is probably SJ. Or Anaheim but they're on the up.
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you want me to go further back?
Jim Bennings legacy without the OEL trade. Grade him out of 10.
in Canucks Talk
Posted
I would look at his Shooting% in Boston for another reason in his regression. It was not sustainable.