The Official Transit Thread

[inane]

Just do the middle ground. The city comes up with the plan, and basically lets everyone know that they don't have to sell THEIR house, but if you do, it's eligible for rezoning. And sure they might not like it, but they can stay. And evidence of that is still found in the west end, where you do see the odd house hanging around the highrises.

Yes, and I have no problem with that. Plan away around the stations and densify as it comes. That's great. Forcing it doesn't work.

[inane]

What do you have against Kamloops growing? Would you rather dump more people into the lower mainland, home of the best agricultural land in the province? Kamloops could create a lot more subdivisions before it became a problem, but it does have appartment buildings and condos downtown. Why should a small town have to work on the same principles as the big city?

I don't have anything against Kamloops growing. And I certainly don't want development in the ALR--I have no idea why you'd assume one has anything to do with the other there....

Kamloops, or any other town can grow intelligently. Sprawling suburbs is a 1950's model of development based on unlimited fuel and cars as the #1, 2, 3, 4, 5 priority. Why would you base your town's growth on an outdated, dying philosophy?

hmmm, a quick glance at the Kamloops OCP and it seems, at least in theory, they agree with me.

from the OCP

"The City's growth management approach emphasizes infill and the intensification of land

use in order to make efficient use of existing infrastructure and reduce environmental

and financial costs of growth. Senior governments are encouraging municipalities to

grow and develop in a more sustainable manner, conserving land, energy, and other

resources, and reducing the impact on the environment. In principle, this approach is

widely supported by the public, but in practice, is often difficult to achieve due to

neighbourhood opposition to increased densities in existing neighbourhoods and

reluctance to use transit. For the term of this plan, the City will continue to pursue its

long-term goal of a more compact, efficient, and sustainable community."

http://www.kamloops.ca/pdfs/kamplan/growth.pdf

[ronthecivil]

I don't have anything against Kamloops growing. And I certainly don't want development in the ALR--I have no idea why you'd assume one has anything to do with the other there....

Kamloops, or any other town can grow intelligently. Sprawling suburbs is a 1950's model of development based on unlimited fuel and cars as the #1, 2, 3, 4, 5 priority. Why would you base your town's growth on an outdated, dying philosophy?

hmmm, a quick glance at the Kamloops OCP and it seems, at least in theory, they agree with me.

from the OCP

"The City's growth management approach emphasizes infill and the intensification of land

use in order to make efficient use of existing infrastructure and reduce environmental

and financial costs of growth. Senior governments are encouraging municipalities to

grow and develop in a more sustainable manner, conserving land, energy, and other

resources, and reducing the impact on the environment. In principle, this approach is

widely supported by the public, but in practice, is often difficult to achieve due to

neighbourhood opposition to increased densities in existing neighbourhoods and

reluctance to use transit. For the term of this plan, the City will continue to pursue its

long-term goal of a more compact, efficient, and sustainable community."

http://www.kamloops.ca/pdfs/kamplan/growth.pdf

That's fine and it shows, but there should be houses built until housing is inexpensive. Then it would allow more people to own, drive down rent prices, and do more for homelessness than any goverment subsidy would do.

It's kind of the reason I like the idea of putting more density in Vancouver. Sure supply demand isn't the be all to end all, but rather than debate the whole subsidised housing think I would just as soon increase the inventory. Dramatically.

[ronthecivil]

Yes, and I have no problem with that. Plan away around the stations and densify as it comes. That's great. Forcing it doesn't work.

You might if you lived there. Joe house owner would probably throw a fit if you turned the single family homes on his block into office towers. The problem with my plan, is as good a comprimise as it is, would not go over with the NIMBYs in Vancouver anyways. Heck, you can't even build a subway system (let alone a highway) to get the existing people around without a torches and pitchforks public meetings brewing over. The problem with most of Vancouver is they feel entitled to live in a growing dynamic city but to not have to actually experience any change themselves.

[Buggernut]

Yes, and I have no problem with that. Plan away around the stations and densify as it comes. That's great. Forcing it doesn't work.

Prohibiting it doesn't either.

[inane]

You might if you lived there. Joe house owner would probably throw a fit if you turned the single family homes on his block into office towers. The problem with my plan, is as good a comprimise as it is, would not go over with the NIMBYs in Vancouver anyways. Heck, you can't even build a subway system (let alone a highway) to get the existing people around without a torches and pitchforks public meetings brewing over. The problem with most of Vancouver is they feel entitled to live in a growing dynamic city but to not have to actually experience any change themselves.

Plans get developed in Vancouver and other cities in the Lower Mainland all the time. Where do you get your information from? Look at that big new development at Kingsway and Knight. These things don't happen over night. If Joe house owners neighbourhood gets designated something denser in a plan, that plan won't be on the ground for years.

Prohibiting it doesn't either.

Who ever argued for prohibiting development?

[Buggernut]

Who ever argued for prohibiting development?

Isn't that exactly what the zoning restrictions have done to prevent development for the last 20-some years since the Skytrain was built?

[ronthecivil]

Plans get developed in Vancouver and other cities in the Lower Mainland all the time. Where do you get your information from? Look at that big new development at Kingsway and Knight. These things don't happen over night. If Joe house owners neighbourhood gets designated something denser in a plan, that plan won't be on the ground for years.

Who ever argued for prohibiting development?

Any time you do a major zoning change to a neighbourhood you have to do a community review. If you had a plan to change the entire community, even if half agreed it's a good idea and had dollar signs in their eyes, the torch and pitchfork crowd would be the ones that would make sure they attended every city hall meeting until they relented. It's those very people that would do exactly what you posed to buggernut, oppose ANY kind of developement. And I dont' think we disagree with how things work, or how it should be done (see above), but I can assure you, these people exist. I have had to deal with them, and know many people who have dealt with them. You know, the organise a big public meeting to complain about airport noise, even though you live in a community on sea island directly underneath and right beside the airfield fence of the the very very old (older than the community) south runway! Yes, I know, it doesn't make any sense, but it is none the less, very, very real.

You have to appreciate how loud and vocal people are. My favorite little though experiment would be to do a survey on how we should do the lions gate bridge. We could put out one petition that asked for signatures for a resolution to close the bridge and plant trees on the causeway, perhaps say a bike path. You could do another petition to say damn the trees and put in a six lane highway and a fancy new bridge. Go downtown on a weekday, and set up a little stand, and you will find all kinds of people that will be pissed at the one idea and happily sign the other. And if either option actually happened, there would be fierce protests and angry city council meetings. Which is why we often get the status quo, and city of Vancouver policy in action is more about what NOT to do (expand car capacity, no matter what). As for what to DO, well, you don't see much of that, now do you?

[inane]

Any time you do a major zoning change to a neighbourhood you have to do a community review. If you had a plan to change the entire community, even if half agreed it's a good idea and had dollar signs in their eyes, the torch and pitchfork crowd would be the ones that would make sure they attended every city hall meeting until they relented. It's those very people that would do exactly what you posed to buggernut, oppose ANY kind of developement. And I dont' think we disagree with how things work, or how it should be done (see above), but I can assure you, these people exist. I have had to deal with them, and know many people who have dealt with them. You know, the organise a big public meeting to complain about airport noise, even though you live in a community on sea island directly underneath and right beside the airfield fence of the the very very old (older than the community) south runway! Yes, I know, it doesn't make any sense, but it is none the less, very, very real.

You have to appreciate how loud and vocal people are. My favorite little though experiment would be to do a survey on how we should do the lions gate bridge. We could put out one petition that asked for signatures for a resolution to close the bridge and plant trees on the causeway, perhaps say a bike path. You could do another petition to say damn the trees and put in a six lane highway and a fancy new bridge. Go downtown on a weekday, and set up a little stand, and you will find all kinds of people that will be pissed at the one idea and happily sign the other. And if either option actually happened, there would be fierce protests and angry city council meetings. Which is why we often get the status quo, and city of Vancouver policy in action is more about what NOT to do (expand car capacity, no matter what). As for what to DO, well, you don't see much of that, now do you?

You don't need to tell me how the system works, as I've said before I work in municipal government. You can't make everyone happy, that is obvious.

To your question that I bolded--stating the status quo is what we get:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/city...sions/index.htm

Mount Pleasant is happening right now (http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/cpp/mountpleasant/index.htm) maybe you should go to a public meeting and see all the 'status quo' that gets approved....

Are you just really a pessimistic person or what's your hate on for Vancouver about? Do you really think nothing gets done?

[ronthecivil]

You don't need to tell me how the system works, as I've said before I work in municipal government. You can't make everyone happy, that is obvious.

To your question that I bolded--stating the status quo is what we get:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/city...sions/index.htm

Mount Pleasant is happening right now (http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/planning/cpp/mountpleasant/index.htm) maybe you should go to a public meeting and see all the 'status quo' that gets approved....

Are you just really a pessimistic person or what's your hate on for Vancouver about? Do you really think nothing gets done?

Hey, they might try, but when it actually suceeds I will consider your work in the municipality well done. After all, the skytrain stations with the least amount of redevelopement are still in Vancouver. But good luck, and I mean that sincerely.

Now if they would only take serious my east west corridor vision. I know you don't like it due to traffic speeds, but with the effecientcies of an east west one way system, you could take one lane out, put in a high curb, and then hide the curb with shrubbery or what not to make it look ok to the peds.

[inane]

Hey, they might try, but when it actually suceeds I will consider your work in the municipality well done. After all, the skytrain stations with the least amount of redevelopement are still in Vancouver. But good luck, and I mean that sincerely.

Now if they would only take serious my east west corridor vision. I know you don't like it due to traffic speeds, but with the effecientcies of an east west one way system, you could take one lane out, put in a high curb, and then hide the curb with shrubbery or what not to make it look ok to the peds.

I don't work in Vancouver, it's not my project, but I mean look at Joyce Station. You don't think there was planning and development there?

[ronthecivil]

I don't work in Vancouver, it's not my project, but I mean look at Joyce Station. You don't think there was planning and development there?

Yep. But look at commercial drive and nanaimo stations, still single family homes next to the station. Ok, that's not the one you work for, but simply translate my message of (sincere) good luck to densifying the neighbourhood, but I will remain scepticle until I actually see something happening.

Incidentily, given you very left wing views, I would have guessed you worked for Burnaby in the first place.

[inane]

Yep. But look at commercial drive and nanaimo stations, still single family homes next to the station. Ok, that's not the one you work for, but simply translate my message of (sincere) good luck to densifying the neighbourhood, but I will remain scepticle until I actually see something happening.

Incidentily, given you very left wing views, I would have guessed you worked for Burnaby in the first place.

Yeah, there are some examples where density has taken off, others where it hasn't. So? Your point that Vancouver is anti-density at skytrain stations is certainly not as true city-wide as you seem to think it is...

Very left wing views haha...sure, if you need to categorize people be my guest, but you're wrong about Burnaby

[ronthecivil]

Yeah, there are some examples where density has taken off, others where it hasn't. So? Your point that Vancouver is anti-density at skytrain stations is certainly not as true city-wide as you seem to think it is...

Very left wing views haha...sure, if you need to categorize people be my guest, but you're wrong about Burnaby

You don't consider yourself left wing?!? Everyone sits somewhere on the spectrum, I am centre-right. It's not a category, just a simple discription

I would guess the city planners want to densify in those areas (remember ecodensity, one of the left wing ideas that even I subscribe to) but it's not city hall that I am worried about, it's the residents, that will fight those efforts tooth and nail. Well maybe not, but that's what I am betting on. The good luck refences (genuinely) the effort to win them over.

[inane]

You don't consider yourself left wing?!? Everyone sits somewhere on the spectrum, I am centre-right. It's not a category, just a simple discription

I would guess the city planners want to densify in those areas (remember ecodensity, one of the left wing ideas that even I subscribe to) but it's not city hall that I am worried about, it's the residents, that will fight those efforts tooth and nail. Well maybe not, but that's what I am betting on. The good luck refences (genuinely) the effort to win them over.

Sure I'm 'left wing' about some things. I just think labeling people like that is stupid because then the whole context of the conversation is 'oh you're a hippy left winger' or some other bs. I mean you say you're center-right--is that true about every issue out there? I doubt it. So why do you pigeon hole yourself?

Yes, there will be some opposition to density. But if your argument were true, how could the density we see at Joyce Station or at Knight/Kingsway have occurred?

[ronthecivil]

Sure I'm 'left wing' about some things. I just think labeling people like that is stupid because then the whole context of the conversation is 'oh you're a hippy left winger' or some other bs. I mean you say you're center-right--is that true about every issue out there? I doubt it. So why do you pigeon hole yourself?

Yes, there will be some opposition to density. But if your argument were true, how could the density we see at Joyce Station or at Knight/Kingsway have occurred?

Not pigeonholing, just saying there are lots of people that work at these places that think a lot like you. That's all. Don't be so sensitive.

How did it happen there? I guess they suceeded at winning them over, or had the balls to ignore them.

[inane]

Not pigeonholing, just saying there are lots of people that work at these places that think a lot like you. That's all. Don't be so sensitive.

How did it happen there? I guess they suceeded at winning them over, or had the balls to ignore them.

So why are you so pessimistic about it happening again?

[ronthecivil]

So why are you so pessimistic about it happening again?

My personal experiences at public meetings, the lack of change so far, and my knowlege of the neighbourhoods. Can't say it can't happen, I just think it won't unless someone dynamically charasmatic leads the way.

[nitronuts]

Automated 'clang' added to Coast Mountain Bus repertoire of auditory prompts

By Gerry Bellett, Vancouver SunMay 26, 2009 7:10 PMComments (3)

“Clang, clang, clang went the trolley, ding, ding, ding went the bell, zing, zing, zing went my heartstrings as we started for Huntington Dell....”

The beginning of The Trolley Song famously sung by Judy Garland.

METRO VANCOUVER — There isn’t a Huntington Dell stop on any of the Coast Mountain Bus Company’s routes, but these days there’s plenty of clanging and dinging — zinging, alas, isn’t provided.

A month ago the bus company introduced an automated “clang” — reminiscent of an old trolley bell — to its repertoire of auditory prompts for passengers.

It sounds out ahead of that unearthly female voice that calls out the stops the bus is approaching in an ingratiating, android-like tone that seems to express constant surprise at getting it right.

The clang is a pre-warning that a stop is about to be announced, which gives a heads-up to blind and handicapped people waiting for their stop.

TransLink’s Drew Snider said Tuesday it replaces the “ding” that the bus company had initially used but discarded because it was too close to the “ding” that sounds when commuters pull the cord or press the button to get off at the next stop.

“It was getting a bit confusing,” Snider admitted.

The whole business of clangs and dings and automated voices is the result of bus drivers not wanting to announce stops, said Rob Sleath, chair of Access for Sight Impaired Consumers and a member of TransLink’s transit user advisory committee.

“We’ve tried for years to get drivers to announce stops,” said Sleath, who is visually impaired. “There were a handful of drivers who did a beautiful job of calling them out, but most rarely did it.”

Blind people on a bus have no idea where they are and need help to disembark at the right stop, he said.

“We’d ask the driver to call out our stop, but if they didn’t, we were the ones with the problem,” said Sleath who helps train new transit drivers on how to deal with blind and handicapped people.

Two years ago Coast Mountain placed a GPS system on its buses and Sleath’s organization asked if an automated system for announcing the stops in advance could be built into it.

“They agreed, but we then found that just calling out the name of the stop would catch some people by surprise, so we asked if they could install a chime sound just before to warn people a stop was being called,” said Sleath.

Again Coast Mountain complied, but the chime was too similar to the one that sounds out when a commuter asks for the next stop and was causing confusion for drivers, he said.

So back to the sounding board.

“There were a whole range of sounds available and we suggested the drivers pick the one they wanted, but for some reason they wouldn’t make a decision,” Sleath explained. “In the end Coast Mountain asked us to choose one and we picked the trolley sound. It’s what people old enough to remember the old street cars in Vancouver would have heard.”

gbellett@vancouversun.com

© Copyright © The Vancouver Sun

Edited May 27, 2009 by nitronuts

[Common sense]

Yeah, that new sound pisses me off.

It's like a fire alarm going off while I'm trying to catch a nap on the bus.