The Official Transit Thread

[ronthecivil]

My suggestion would be to build a two lane lift bridge, similar to the train one beside second narrows, above the Massey tunnel, and cut off boat traffic during rush hour and cut off highway traffic all other hours.

Yeah lift bridges may be archaic, but they're relatively cheap.

I think the reason they didn't build a bridge in the first place is that the ground sucks too much to support it. That said, it wouldn't suprise me if the plan for Massey turned out to be a massive bridge with fancy geotech piling or what not. I don't think there has been much work yet.

Also, the feds might (as in almost certainly wouldn't) go along with your blocking of a navigable (and well used) waterway, even if it's for four to six hours a day.

[ronthecivil]

Isn't every district but Surrey seeing declining enrollment?

Regardless, those numbers can be very deceptive. School catchments and other factors can make those numbers look very fuzzy.

I doubt we disagree that Surrey's (and Langley's) populations are exploding while Vancouver's stagnates (well, it grows very slowly, but not enough to account for population increases).

The schools don't tell the whole story but when one city is actually growing like a weed and another is looking at massive drops gives you a good idea as to how the demographic makeup of the city is changing.

Edited September 7, 2010 by ronthecivil

[inane]

Until you find a job in Surrey, then the whole system has moved south of fraser and the workings of the bedroom community of Vancouver are no longer a concern to you. That's the scenario that's happening.....

Let's do a little though experiment shall we? Over the next 30 years or so were supposed to gain about 1 million people. If we cancelled all the road projects, jumped gas taxes and put in marvelous transit out to UBC and Langly, do you really think that it won't result in even more sprawl that we already have, regardless of the congestion? Or will Vancouver, Burnaby, and New West fit the vast majority within their borders ? They all have to go SOMEWHERE!

Ok Ron, again, I ask you to think your plan out long term. So we house these people out in the burbs, we accomodate sprawl so that every square inch of land is developed except the ALR. Then what?

[ronthecivil]

Ok Ron, again, I ask you to think your plan out long term. So we house these people out in the burbs, we accomodate sprawl so that every square inch of land is developed except the ALR. Then what?

My plan would be to massively increase the population on the Burrard Peninsula (why do you suppose I bitch about the slow pace of Vancouvers growth???), put in high gas taxes (like 30 cents a litre) and put that money 50/50 to improving the roads/ providing fast affordable transit such that cost not congestion becomes the dominant factor in transportation choice. Do that and the desire to live in dense communities served by transit will increase, even in the burbs, with planning and delvelopement pressures following suite.

What's your plan for fitting a million people? All I see is fights to stop roads and developement. That's a great strategy for moving the growth elsewhere, not so good for accomidating it.

[inane]

My plan would be to massively increase the population on the Burrard Peninsula (why do you suppose I bitch about the slow pace of Vancouvers growth???), put in high gas taxes (like 30 cents a litre) and put that money 50/50 to improving the roads/ providing fast affordable transit such that cost not congestion becomes the dominant factor in transportation choice. Do that and the desire to live in dense communities served by transit will increase, even in the burbs, with planning and delvelopement pressures following suite.

What's your plan for fitting a million people? All I see is fights to stop roads and developement. That's a great strategy for moving the growth elsewhere, not so good for accomidating it.

Yet you mock my belief that elected officials don't do anything controversial...how do you suppose your plan would be received?

[ronthecivil]

Yet you mock my belief that elected officials don't do anything controversial...how do you suppose your plan would be received?

Traffic congestion is always top three if not number one irritant of voters in surveys done. With that amount of money a crap ton could be done, and it includes a built in demand management tool. And extra 15 billion dollars for roadway and 15 billion A YEAR for transit province wide would get a hell of a lot of things done.

Skytrain out to Coquitlam, UBC, and Langley over ten years? No problem.

Every roadway upgrade on the books? No problem.

Build a road around the other side of the hills to replace the malahat? No problem.

Give Victoria and Kelowna real transit, and at least community shuttles for the elderly in smaller communites? No problem.

Four lane the transcanada to the border and 97 to PG? No problem.

Those are pretty good selling points and when people can see what they are paying for with their own eyes it helps a lot.

What's your big plan to fit in a million people?

[inane]

Traffic congestion is always top three if not number one irritant of voters in surveys done. With that amount of money a crap ton could be done, and it includes a built in demand management tool. And extra 15 billion dollars for roadway and 15 billion A YEAR for transit province wide would get a hell of a lot of things done.

Skytrain out to Coquitlam, UBC, and Langley over ten years? No problem.

Every roadway upgrade on the books? No problem.

Build a road around the other side of the hills to replace the malahat? No problem.

Give Victoria and Kelowna real transit, and at least community shuttles for the elderly in smaller communites? No problem.

Four lane the transcanada to the border and 97 to PG? No problem.

Those are pretty good selling points and when people can see what they are paying for with their own eyes it helps a lot.

What's your big plan to fit in a million people?

I agree density needs to be upped in city centres. Everyone sees that. So why do we keep building highways to the burbs?

[ronthecivil]

I agree density needs to be upped in city centres. Everyone sees that. So why do we keep building highways to the burbs?

Did not building highways to the burbs slow down sprawl at all?

We need to move truck traffic somehow. This IS a port city.

[inane]

Did not building highways to the burbs slow down sprawl at all?

We need to move truck traffic somehow. This IS a port city.

Oh so now this is a truck issue? See how the goal posts shift?

[ronthecivil]

Oh so now this is a truck issue? See how the goal posts shift?

So do you think that cancelling gateway would magically stop people from moving to the burbs like they have been doing for decades despite terrible traffic over the bridge during that time?

Since were speaking of shifting goalposts you still haven't come up with any strategies to fight sprawl OR where to put those million people were expecting. Tick tock!

[inane]

So do you think that cancelling gateway would magically stop people from moving to the burbs like they have been doing for decades despite terrible traffic over the bridge during that time?

Since were speaking of shifting goalposts you still haven't come up with any strategies to fight sprawl OR where to put those million people were expecting. Tick tock!

People moving to the burbs is ok, but the sprawling burbs is not ok. Move people to Surrey City Centre, Coquitlam town center, langley city, etc...just don't sprawl out to every square inch of land that's not in the ALR. Plus densify Vancouver, New West, Burnaby, North Van. Richmond is a lost cause.

Spend the money you're spending on SFPR/Hwy 1 and put it in transit. It doesn't have to be shiny skytrain by the way--a finer grid of busses would do just fine. The problem with taking transit anywhere but Vancouver is the wait times and the transfer times, it's not the type of transit.

There is so much underdeveloped or wasted land in all city centres, you could drop 1 million people in the lower mainland and not eat up one square inch of 'greenfield' if you really wanted to.

[ronthecivil]

People moving to the burbs is ok, but the sprawling burbs is not ok. Move people to Surrey City Centre, Coquitlam town center, langley city, etc...just don't sprawl out to every square inch of land that's not in the ALR. Plus densify Vancouver, New West, Burnaby, North Van. Richmond is a lost cause.

Spend the money you're spending on SFPR/Hwy 1 and put it in transit. It doesn't have to be shiny skytrain by the way--a finer grid of busses would do just fine. The problem with taking transit anywhere but Vancouver is the wait times and the transfer times, it's not the type of transit.

There is so much underdeveloped or wasted land in all city centres, you could drop 1 million people in the lower mainland and not eat up one square inch of 'greenfield' if you really wanted to.

Ok, we don't need to drop them ALL on the Burrard Peninsula but do you really think that one million peoples worth of homes can be built in dense nodes in various city centres???? I really don't mind that idea but I KNOW that's just as unlikely.

How long would the CAPITAL cost of the highways fund the OPERATING costs of a finer bus network, especially without the toll revenue provided by a tolled Port Mann Bridge? I am cool with more buses but cancelling a few highway projects isn't going to fund that for long. As translink has been trying to prove for a while, you need a radical funding strategy just to provide the status quo, let alone allowing for a major increase in service.

Last I checked the public has NO appetitie for increased taxes to fund transit.

Last I checked the public isn't happy about tolls but they will suffer through using them to fund a major upgrade to the bridge and highways. Even at moderate traffic levels the bridge will be collecting 10-40k AN HOUR in tolls. I suspect around 200 million a year. That will easily pay the mortgage on the roadway, unlike bus fares which are only about 50% of the costs.

It's not a shell game where you can just move budget from one column to another and voila you have more buses!

It's interesting though you note that places not named Coquitlam, Surrey, Langley are a lost cause for growth. I agree, which is why soon enough this will be known as the Greater Surrey Regional District as it overtakes Vancouver as the regional hub just as Vancouver becomes a sleepy bedroom community for the rich. If Surrey is smart they will use the demand to generate a real downtown, and while they are at it, do it at a lower tax rate so you can steal all the businesses as well. After all, even for the CEO Vancouver is way too expensive, and a move of the office to a downtown Surrey and his family to a nice acrerage in South Surrey or Whiterock doesn't sound all that bad after all if it makes the employees happy! By all means densify the burbs, it will make providing transit a lot easier!

[inane]

Ok, we don't need to drop them ALL on the Burrard Peninsula but do you really think that one million peoples worth of homes can be built in dense nodes in various city centres???? I really don't mind that idea but I KNOW that's just as unlikely.

How long would the CAPITAL cost of the highways fund the OPERATING costs of a finer bus network, especially without the toll revenue provided by a tolled Port Mann Bridge? I am cool with more buses but cancelling a few highway projects isn't going to fund that for long. As translink has been trying to prove for a while, you need a radical funding strategy just to provide the status quo, let alone allowing for a major increase in service.

Last I checked the public has NO appetitie for increased taxes to fund transit.

Last I checked the public isn't happy about tolls but they will suffer through using them to fund a major upgrade to the bridge and highways. Even at moderate traffic levels the bridge will be collecting 10-40k AN HOUR in tolls. I suspect around 200 million a year. That will easily pay the mortgage on the roadway, unlike bus fares which are only about 50% of the costs.

It's not a shell game where you can just move budget from one column to another and voila you have more buses!

It's interesting though you note that places not named Coquitlam, Surrey, Langley are a lost cause for growth. I agree, which is why soon enough this will be known as the Greater Surrey Regional District as it overtakes Vancouver as the regional hub just as Vancouver becomes a sleepy bedroom community for the rich. If Surrey is smart they will use the demand to generate a real downtown, and while they are at it, do it at a lower tax rate so you can steal all the businesses as well. After all, even for the CEO Vancouver is way too expensive, and a move of the office to a downtown Surrey and his family to a nice acrerage in South Surrey or Whiterock doesn't sound all that bad after all if it makes the employees happy! By all means densify the burbs, it will make providing transit a lot easier!

You keep going on about what the public wants or has an appetite for. When the hell has that mattered? HST ring a bell? What the people want is irrelevant. It's what the government thinks is best for the people. Hell Campbell's put in two new taxes in the last 2 years and there's no one out with pitchforks...

Campbell had a good opportunity when he rode the 'green' wave with the Carbon tax. But instead of tying money generated to things like transit, it just goes to the big pot to go build roads!

oh and Surrey may overtake Vancouver population wise, it will never take over as the primate city in the region...

Edited September 8, 2010 by inane

[ronthecivil]

You keep going on about what the public wants or has an appetite for. When the hell has that mattered? HST ring a bell? What the people want is irrelevant. It's what the government thinks is best for the people. Hell Campbell's put in two new taxes in the last 2 years and there's no one out with pitchforks...

Campbell had a good opportunity when he rode the 'green' wave with the Carbon tax. But instead of tying money generated to things like transit, it just goes to the big pot to go build roads!

oh and Surrey may overtake Vancouver population wise, it will never take over as the primate city in the region...

Translink can raise gas taxes to fund transit can't they? If it's so popular roll it on out!

I think the HST will matter to the governing party, there's a lot of pissed off voters. That's not good for the government, right or wrong as they may be. Last I checked they are in danger of a recall petition because of all this. If anything the whole HST experience will make governments LESS likely to put in unwanted taxes, much like the RAV line scared Vancouver off of rapid transit.

And I don't think it will happen overnight, but all the young proffesionals from whom the movers and shakers are going to settle out from live predominantly in Surrey (some in New West, but mostly south of fraser). The people that make the decisions are moving to Surrey. The people in Vancouver are getting old and retired. Lower the business tax and build a downtown and watch how fast things change.

[I_AM_CANUCKIAN]

Took me 2 hours to get to work today. Had to walk from Royal Oak to Metrotown this morning.

Electrical problems shut down SkyTrain Expo Line

Service has been restored to Vancouver's Expo Line SkyTrain system after the service ground to a halt on Friday morning when TransLink lost communication with several trains in a downtown section of the line.

The problems, which were first reported just after 7:30 a.m. PT, initially shut down the entire Expo Line, but by 8:15 a.m. TransLink was reporting service was partially restored.

According to TransLink's, "Expo Line trains are moving again, but very slowly. Trains are running on single tracks along separate sections, and customers may have to change trains at some stations to continue the journey."

"Coast Mountain Bus Co. has pulled buses off regular rush-hour service and brought in spare coaches to help with bus bridges," said TransLink

"Millennium line are running segregated service operating between VCC-Clarke and Columbia Station," said TransLink, in an earlier statement.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/09/10/bc-skytrain-breakdown.html

Edited September 10, 2010 by I_AM_CANUCKIAN

[Common sense]

A bit better for me. However, all 43 buses along 41st Ave were diverted to become the Skytrain bus bridge, so it was basically 41 or walk into UBC.

[Vanuck14]

That would be one very long walk.

[The Situation]

I was on the 480 and sleeping peacefully but it was very crowded. When it got down to around West 70th, some Asian punk in a beige shirt yelled "ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!? IS THERE ANY ROOM IN THE BACK OF THE BUS??!?!? MOVE TO THE BACK OF THE BUS!!!!! YOU DON'T NEED TO GO TO UBC TO KNOW THAT!!!!". I was like WTF? Good thing this is a bus to Richmond full of relatively small Asians. If it was like a bus in Surrey or South Central, he would have got some stitches or worse.

[Common sense]

I was on the 480 and sleeping peacefully but it was very crowded. When it got down to around West 70th, some Asian punk in a beige shirt yelled "ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!? IS THERE ANY ROOM IN THE BACK OF THE BUS??!?!? MOVE TO THE BACK OF THE BUS!!!!! YOU DON'T NEED TO GO TO UBC TO KNOW THAT!!!!". I was like WTF? Good thing this is a bus to Richmond full of relatively small Asians. If it was like a bus in Surrey or South Central, he would have got some stitches or worse.

What's so bad about telling people to move further back? I've done it plenty of times and managed to squeeze 10 people on in the process of doing so.

Seriously...you don't need to go to UBC to know to move back and make room for someone else if it's a packed bus.

[The Situation]

What's so bad about telling people to move further back? I've done it plenty of times and managed to squeeze 10 people on in the process of doing so.

Seriously...you don't need to go to UBC to know to move back and make room for someone else if it's a packed bus.

Was that you earlier? jk

Nothing wrong but the person wasn't very polite. His tone was very whiny and angry. He could have been "Hey guys can you please move back?" instead of making an ass of himself. Also of course, he woke me up, that made me a bit grumpy.