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#211 hockeyfan87

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:26 PM

Honestly, where do you come up with something this stupid? If you spent the time, the money, and put in the hard work (doing well as you went) to get through medical school, would you expect to go work as a janitor? It's NOT a sense of entitlement. If you do seven years of university, earning two degrees and a teaching certificate, while investing tens of thousands of dollars, you have EARNED the right to be a teacher. How is that selfish and how does that prove that someone should not be a teacher? "Hey, you put in all the time, work, and money required ... but you're selfish if you think you should now have a job".

Easily one of the dumbest comments I have ever read on these boards.


I hope you aren't a teacher. You dismiss what someone else says as dumb because they disagree with you?

What you just described is entitlement. The fact is there are many people out there with undergraduate degrees and higher levels of education who can't find jobs. Should the government subsidize them too?

Teachers are being asked to do to much with too little but a 15% wage increase is ridiculous when the province is already running a deficit.

If you have something constructive to discuss let's hear it. The education system needs reforms but the BCTF will cave at the first sign of more money and let other issues, such as class size, go by the way side.

Edited by hockeyfan87, 04 March 2012 - 03:27 PM.


#212 stawns

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:30 PM

It's the taxpayers who would be funding everything the BCTF is asking for; therefore, people on both sides of the fence are within their rights to have their opinions.


I'm a teacher, and I'm a taxpayer, just like you.

#213 stawns

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:36 PM

Teachers are being asked to do to much with too little but a 15% wage increase is ridiculous when the province is already running a deficit.


Not claiming it's unbiased, but it's certainly another view of the state of the BC economy.

"
BC isn’t broke: putting teacher bargaining in perspective

March 2nd, 2012 · Iglika Ivanova · 21 Comments · Economy, Education, Employment & labour, Poverty, inequality & welfare, Privatization, P3s & public services, Provincial budget & finance, Taxes

Last Monday, BC teachers held a Day of Action in communities across the province to protest the BC government’s decision to legislate a contract and put an end to their collective bargaining process. I was invited to speak to teachers at the Surrey rally, where I had the opportunity to share some of my analysis of the BC Budget (which readers of this blog are familiar with) and debunk some myths around the economic and fiscal context in which the teachers’ bargaining process is taking place.
It was an honour to show support to teachers in my adoptive country because I owe so much to my own teachers back in Bulgaria. I literally wouldn’t be here today had I not had amazing teachers growing up. Through my own education experience, I’ve come to believe that great education is the most sustainable way to make change happen, to build a better future for everyone. And you can’t have great education without dedicated, hardworking and caring teachers.

And I was thrilled to be invited to the Surrey rally of all the great events happening around the province for personal reasons too: my in-laws are Surrey teachers.
The following is the prepared text of my remarks.

As a public interest researcher at the CCPA, I spend a lot of my time looking at issues of government finance and how they affect the quality of public services and in turn, quality of life for people in our province. In my brief remarks today, I want to share with you two rather disconcerting patterns that I have seen play out in BC over the last decade.

The first is a pattern in labour relations that the previous speakers already touched on. We’re increasingly seeing governments, both federally and in BC, who believe that wages need to be kept low for the benefit of economic growth (regardless of whether we’re in a period of economic growth, recession or a recovery).

The second pattern I want to talk about is the consistent underfunding of public services in this province, which includes education. We have seen a distinct withdrawal of government support from public services while more and more of the costs have been downloaded to families who need the services.
The net zero mandate public sector unions are facing now is a reflection of both of these patterns. So is last week’s provincial budget.

Let’s start with the budget. This year’s budget falsely claims that the proverbial cupboard is bare and that nothing can be done to meet any of BC’s most pressing social, economic and environmental challenges. What this really means is that the provincial government is asking us, asking the poor and middle class families to tighten our belts, to make sacrifices and wait for the economy to get stronger before our issues can be addressed.

But in reality, the cupboard isn’t bare. The constraints the government appears to be facing are neither economic nor fiscal. They are political.

The fact is that the BC economy is in recovery. Growth is not as strong as it was in the mid-2000s, but it is present. The economy is projected to grow by about 4% per year. Government revenues are growing along with the economy, also by about 4%. Government spending, however, is only growing by 2%. This means that effectively, the size of government is shrinking relative to the size of our economy. And this is not new — the size of government spending as a share of the economy has fallen quite dramatically over the last decade. In 2000, government spending was roughly at 22% of our economy, last year it was down to 20% and with this new budget, it is projected to fall further over the next couple of years. This may sound like small changes, but with the BC economy at over $200 billion per year, a 2 percentage point decrease (from 22% to 20%) amounts to more than $4 billion dollars per year.

So does the government have no money because the recovery is slow or is the crunch caused by government shrinking its size deliberately over the last decade? You tell me.

As it stands, the budget’s stated priority is to balance the books in time for the next election. You’ve all heard that the budget is in deficit this year, but how many of you know that the budget shortfall for this year is greatly overstated? The government has deliberately low-balled revenue forecasts and is hiding behind a convenient accounting artifact. Roughly half of the $2.5 billion projected deficit for 2011 is a product of accounting rules that require government to expense the full $1.6 billion HST transition funding repayment in the current year. This is despite the fact that BC negotiated a deal with the federal government to pay it over five years with no interest. So we are paying the bill over five years, but the entire amount is added to this year’s deficit estimate. The real budget shortfall is only $1.2 billion, half of which is fiscal padding in the form of a contingency fund allocation and a forecast allowance.

At $1.2 billion, our deficit is less than 1% of the provincial economy (it’s close to 0.6% to be precise).

The spin on this year’s budget is so-called “prudence” but in reality there is nothing prudent about failing to tackle the global climate crisis, reduce income inequality, adequately fund our schools, invest in community-based supports for seniors, or reduce BC’s embarrassingly high poverty rate. For all the talk of preserving core public services, the budget offers only meager increases to the ministries of health, education and social assistance that don’t keep pace with rising cost pressures and population growth. K-12 education funding, for example, needs to rise by at least 2% to keep up with inflation and maintain the current levels of service; more if the province wants to address the unmet needs in the system. Instead, we’re seeing what’s essentially a frozen budget, a zero increase, which effectively amounts to funding cuts on the ground.

Practically speaking, it’s not real fiscal constraints that stand in our way but a lack of political will. Our debt levels are very reasonable when considered as a share of our economy, and they are among the lowest in the country. We can afford to borrow a bit more at today’s record low interest rates to make capital and social investments that will make us all better off in the long run.
Our Finance Minister Kevin Falcon claims we have no choice, but he’s wrong. Our government has a choice.
Our BC government is by no means broke, and the net zero mandate for public sector bargaining is a political choice, not a reflection of an economic imperative to cut costs.

The choice our government is making is to ask us to tighten our belts and keep out wages low for the benefit of economic growth during the recovery. Once growth returns, the government has often argued, the benefits would trickle down to everyone and wages will rise as the economy grows. Our Premier made that point quite clearly in her radio appearance on the Bill Good show earlier in February.

But the focus on pursuing jobs and growth without regard to what type of jobs we’re getting hasn’t paid off for BC families.
The 2008 recession and the current slow recovery are taking place in the context of a 30-year-long stagnation in BC family incomes. We don’t hear this often, but median earnings for full time, full year workers in BC have actually fallen since the late 1970s, once inflation is taken into account. This means that over half of BC full year full time workers are earning less in real terms than their parents’ generation. That’s happened during a time when the provincial economy almost doubled in real terms, and real GDP per capita rose by 23%.

But it’s clear that the benefits of prosperity have not trickled down to the bottom half of the population. This raises a moral question about fairness and social justice, one that the Occupy movement brought to the forefront of the public debate just last fall.
But it also has a direct impact on the economic well-being of our province and our country. High inequality can diminish economic growth if it means that we are not fully using the skills and capabilities of all its citizens or if it undermines social cohesion, leading to increased social tensions. We must find a way to share prosperity more fairly.

This all starts with a solid and well-funded public education system. Accessible, high quality education from the early years all the way to post-secondary is the only way to ensure economic mobility in a modern society. Providing access to high quality educa­tion for all children is the greatest equalizer we have.

And this means treating the hard working women and men who teach our children with the respect they deserve and compensating them fairly.

There is no question that governments everywhere in Canada are facing pressure to balance their budgets. So far, efforts to reduce the deficit have disproportionately focused on cutting public sector jobs, wages and social programs. But we must remember that there are two sides to every budget – the spending side and the income or revenue side. The only proposals coming from the business sector are to cut government spending, but I think it’s only fair and reasonable to look at the other side too and consider government income.

Over the past decade, the BC government has reshaped the provincial tax system. As a result, BC now boasts the lowest personal income taxes for individuals earning up to $120,000 per year and one of the lowest corporate income tax rates in the country. The savings have been small for all but the highest-earning families and have largely gone unnoticed as user fees have risen, including MSP which is going up next year for the fourth time since 2009. And a number of public services have been scaled back or suffered from declines in quality due to underfunding.

But these tax cuts have done considerable damage to our collective capacity to care for one another and protect the environment. If we were collecting taxes at the same share of the economy now as we were in 2000, we’d have $2.5 billion more. Every year.
The way the government got people to support tax cuts is by hiding the consequences. Low taxes sounded like a good idea to be people. Good idea until such time that you or somebody you love needs the services that the tax cuts have starved. Until you see how big your child’s class is and how many kids with special needs are in it who don’t receive the supports they need to learn well. Until you have to get rushed into the overcrowded emergency room and treated in the hallway. Until you find out how long the waiting list is for your aging mother to be assessed for supportive housing.

This highlights a need for a public debate on a key question: do we really want BC to be a low tax society with low wages and frayed public services? Because this is where the government’s current budget is leading us.
At a time when BC families are already stretched by record high debt levels and a weak labour market, the way out of this economic slump lies not in lowering the wages and benefits of teachers and other public sector workers, but in having stronger and more accessible public services, starting with education.

#214 hockeyfan87

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:40 PM

My girlfriend and I are both teachers (I'm high school English, she's elementary). We have 7 years of university education each. A combined 14 years, and, approximately $60-$70k in debt between us. And you know what, we can't even find full-time teaching jobs. That's the reality for many of us. In fact, the district I'm in closed 12 schools just a couple of years ago. Twelve. Teachers, vice-principals, principals, counsellors, librarians ... all with years and years of experience (talk about job security) and they're looking for new jobs.

So what? That's the choice we made and, believe it or not, a huge reason we made that choice was because we did care about working with students. When I first started I thought that I would enjoy teaching because I loved English, but it didn't take long for me to realize that working with the students was far more rewarding. But you know what? I still have to pay rent, vehicle costs, food costs, etc. I'd also like to have a house some day and start a family. When will I be able to do that, exactly?

So here's what happens next: teachers that are highly skilled, competent, and hard-working ... find other careers. Personally, I'm waiting to hear back from law schools. Who loses in this situation? Not to sound arrogant, but it's the students. I can go into law and be just fine. The students, however, will miss out on a good teacher that genuinely cares. And you can say "oh, well I guess you just don't care that much then" but that's hardly fair. Since when are teachers supposed to monk-like and forsake all worldly possessions? Wasn't it enough that I earned two degrees and spent tens of thousands of dollars? Like I said, I do want a house and family, but I can barely make ends meet as is!

What the B.C. government has done is to say that our union doesn't matter. Negotiations are over and we have to work, or we face extremely stiff fines. Furthermore, a mediator will broker a new deal but it MUST comply with the government's wishes. So really, what rights to teachers actually have? None.

And like many have said, this is about more than money. Classroom compositions are very important. 30 kids in a class? 5-10 IEPs (individual education plans)? It's not just the extra work that this creates for teachers, it's also how spread out it makes us. No individual student really gets the time or attention they need to succeed (go figure so many don't go to university).

But what are we complaining about, our work day is done by 3pm (yeah right!), we have weekends and holidays off, we get summers off, and we get benefits. Just try being a full time teacher for one term or semester, I dare you. Teachers eat, sleep, and breathe their jobs more than you can imagine. The teachers that don't, well, they're the ones you get stuck with when the hard-working teachers find better jobs.

It just baffles my mind how the government can strip spending on education. How can you possibly justify or rationalize that? How is it not seen as the incredibly important institution that it is? And then for people to criticize teachers, as a whole, and call them lazy and greedy? Wow. I shared more personal information than I'd normally like but, to me, this is that important. I just don't think most people really understand the situation.


I get it you're a teacher and you're very passionate about this topic but the only people giving you "rep" are the people solidly on your side. How do you think you come across to people like me, who like most members of the public, are undecided on where they stand?

Where is the government going to get the money to give the teachers what they want? Or is this not your concern? Look at the bigger picture. The system we have right now is unsustainable. If it was a simple issue of giving students a good education it would be a simple argument and decision.

It's not. Healthcare takes up 60% of our budget. How much is left for education, infrastructure, social programs, etc.? This is the real discussion people need to be having but people, including yourself, ignore the realities that BC is facing.

#215 hockeyfan87

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:45 PM

@ stawns That's an interesting article even if it contains bias. Generally, I think money spent on education is a good investment. I subscribe to the belief that governments should save during good economic times and spend during recessions.

I won't be voting Liberal next election but for the next three years we're stuck with them. It's pretty clear that they're going to lose the next election for a host of reasons (emergence of conservative party, union disputes, etc.) and maybe the NDP will be able to satisfy teachers in a way that benefits them and students. Although I'm not hopeful.

#216 stawns

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:49 PM

I get it you're a teacher and you're very passionate about this topic but the only people giving you "rep" are the people solidly on your side. How do you think you come across to people like me, who like most members of the public, are undecided on where they stand?

Where is the government going to get the money to give the teachers what they want? Or is this not your concern? Look at the bigger picture. The system we have right now is unsustainable. If it was a simple issue of giving students a good education it would be a simple argument and decision.

It's not. Healthcare takes up 60% of our budget. How much is left for education, infrastructure, social programs, etc.? This is the real discussion people need to be having but people, including yourself, ignore the realities that BC is facing.


the point of that article is, there are many people who think the gov't isn't in nearly as bad a shape as the powers that be want you to believe. Doesn't seem to be too bad when they give themselves, and their corporate cronies higher salaries and disgusting tax breaks.

What I truly don't understand are the people who rail hardest against the teachers, or any union, are usually the ones getting screwed the hardest by the gov't...........teachers and unions are low middle income earners struggling paycheque to paycheque, just like you......trying to fight against an unjust system, just like most of the people heaping hate and vitriol upon them. You'd think those people would recognize that.

For the record, I am not a union person, in any way.......I just want to go to work and do my job to the best of my ability, but when I have to share 23 science 7 textbooks between 78 grade 7 students (or math, or socials etc etc), then you better believe I am going to fight for a better learning environment for my kids.

#217 Taelin

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:51 PM

I won't be voting Liberal next election but for the next three years we're stuck with them. It's pretty clear that they're going to lose the next election for a host of reasons (emergence of conservative party, union disputes, etc.) and maybe the NDP will be able to satisfy teachers in a way that benefits them and students. Although I'm not hopeful.


I for one hope they aren't the ruling party next election. The NDP days of the 90's and early 2000's still have me seeing red.

#218 hockeyfan87

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:53 PM

the point of that article is, there are many people who think the gov't isn't in nearly as bad a shape as the powers that be want you to believe. Doesn't seem to be too bad when they give themselves, and their corporate cronies higher salaries and disgusting tax breaks.

What I truly don't understand are the people who rail hardest against the teachers, or any union, are usually the ones getting screwed the hardest by the gov't...........teachers and unions are low middle income earners struggling paycheque to paycheque, just like you......trying to fight against an unjust system, just like most of the people heaping hate and vitriol upon them. You'd think those people would recognize that.

For the record, I am not a union person, in any way.......I just want to go to work and do my job to the best of my ability, but when I have to share 23 science 7 textbooks between 78 grade 7 students (or math, or socials etc etc), then you better believe I am going to fight for a better learning environment for my kids.


Yes, perception and reality are different. If you believe in what you're doing and your intentions are what you say they are then I fully support your right to strike. I just feel like I've seen this story play out so many times in the last ten years with the Liberals and the BCTF that I've grown disillusioned.

Edited by hockeyfan87, 04 March 2012 - 03:55 PM.


#219 Remy

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:55 PM

I hope you aren't a teacher. You dismiss what someone else says as dumb because they disagree with you?

What you just described is entitlement. The fact is there are many people out there with undergraduate degrees and higher levels of education who can't find jobs. Should the government subsidize them too?

Teachers are being asked to do to much with too little but a 15% wage increase is ridiculous when the province is already running a deficit.

If you have something constructive to discuss let's hear it. The education system needs reforms but the BCTF will cave at the first sign of more money and let other issues, such as class size, go by the way side.


You get offended that I called your earlier post stupid (as it was), and the proceed to back it up by making more ignorant comments. I am a teacher, but thanks for your professional input on that issue. As someone who has never been in my classroom, I appreciate knowing how unsuitable for the profession you find me (I also assume you are a fully certified teacher, to make such judgements ... yeah, right). I didn't assert that your comments are dumb because they disagree with mine, I called them dumb because they are dumb. I also then corrected the incorrect statements that you made.

At what point did I or anyone else ask for a subsidy? I work for my wages, thank you. You still seem to fail to understand that when someone meets all the qualifications for a profession, after years of hard work, they do deserve to find employment unless there is some other reason why they should not (a criminal record, etc.). I'm not looking for a handout, I worked hard to earn my qualifications. You completely ignored the valid points I made in my earlier post. Would you, having earned your MD, find it reasonable that you should be unable to find work as a doctor? They have bodies governing admissions (and graduation) FOR A REASON.

And you're flat out wrong about what the BCTF is fighting for. Wage increases (which essentially amount to a cost of living bump) are at the BOTTOM of our list. You are making statements on something you apparently know very little about. We don't expect the government to get blood from a stone, either. Classroom size, composition, teacher autonomy, etc, etc. I'm not here to explain all the ins and outs for you (especially since you have such strong ideas already anyway), but if you really want to understand what's going on, then read up about it. Again, this is NOT a cash-grab by teachers ...

#220 stawns

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:01 PM

Yes, perception and reality are different. If you believe in what you're doing and your intentions are what you say they are then I fully support your right to strike. I just feel like I've seen this story play out so many times in the last ten years with the Liberals and the BCTF that I've grown disillusioned.


I don't disagree, but don't you think teachers, and other govt wokers have the right to fair contract negotiation? Thats all teachers are asking, is negotiation, and the govt refuses to do anything but impose contract after contract. Like I said, I'm no more a fan of the BCTF than I am of the gov't, but when the gov't imposes a cotract and education plan that guts the education system, like bill 22 does, then I have a problem.

They are not shy about their intentions to model their system after the US.........is that really what we want for our kids?

#221 hockeyfan87

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:02 PM

You get offended that I called your earlier post stupid (as it was), and the proceed to back it up by making more ignorant comments. I am a teacher, but thanks for your professional input on that issue. As someone who has never been in my classroom, I appreciate knowing how unsuitable for the profession you find me (I also assume you are a fully certified teacher, to make such judgements ... yeah, right). I didn't assert that your comments are dumb because they disagree with mine, I called them dumb because they are dumb. I also then corrected the incorrect statements that you made.

At what point did I or anyone else ask for a subsidy? I work for my wages, thank you. You still seem to fail to understand that when someone meets all the qualifications for a profession, after years of hard work, they do deserve to find employment unless there is some other reason why they should not (a criminal record, etc.). I'm not looking for a handout, I worked hard to earn my qualifications. You completely ignored the valid points I made in my earlier post. Would you, having earned your MD, find it reasonable that you should be unable to find work as a doctor? They have bodies governing admissions (and graduation) FOR A REASON.

And you're flat out wrong about what the BCTF is fighting for. Wage increases (which essentially amount to a cost of living bump) are at the BOTTOM of our list. You are making statements on something you apparently know very little about. We don't expect the government to get blood from a stone, either. Classroom size, composition, teacher autonomy, etc, etc. I'm not here to explain all the ins and outs for you (especially since you have such strong ideas already anyway), but if you really want to understand what's going on, then read up about it. Again, this is NOT a cash-grab by teachers ...


I waited twenty minutes for you to post this drivel (I saw you watching this thread)? At no point did I say I was a teacher or claim I was an expert on the topic.

I find you unsuitable to be a teacher because you're condescending, arrogant and can not have a reasonable debate without committing a list of fallacies which I would expect from someone with seven years of university education to be aware of.

What strong ideas have I put forward? I think they are quite even, I said I was undecided in where I stand.

Maybe you should be more worried about paying down your personal debt than having a base argument with people on the Canuck Forums.

#222 hockeyfan87

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:05 PM

I don't disagree, but don't you think teachers, and other govt wokers have the right to fair contract negotiation? Thats all teachers are asking, is negotiation, and the govt refuses to do anything but impose contract after contract. Like I said, I'm no more a fan of the BCTF than I am of the gov't, but when the gov't imposes a cotract and education plan that guts the education system, like bill 22 does, then I have a problem.

They are not shy about their intentions to model their system after the US.........is that really what we want for our kids?


Of course not and I hope it doesn't come to that. I'm not a fan of the Liberals by any stretch of the imagination but I don't think they are equipped to handle and meet everyone's expectations. Instead of change, they are on a course to try to maintain what we have and failing in every respect.

#223 stawns

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

Of course not and I hope it doesn't come to that. I'm not a fan of the Liberals by any stretch of the imagination but I don't think they are equipped to handle and meet everyone's expectations. Instead of change, they are on a course to try to maintain what we have and failing in every respect.


it's already come to that........bill 22 is taken right from American education...........

sky rocketing admin costs at the expense of teachers and students

huge classes with no caps on special needs students

the burden of supplies and equipment on the students and teachers

the de-professionalization of the teaching profession.

#224 PlanB

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 05:07 PM

Many people here think that because they a)went to school once in their lives or b)that they pay tax - that they know how education is, or should be run.People do of course have the right to an opinion (at least for now in this province anyway) but I certainly wish that more people took the opportunity to get informed about this matter before commenting (I know, foolish for even thinking that on a message board, but I can dream can't I:).

In my research (yes, I actually did some research on education) I discovered a few FACTS, not opinions (I did discover many of those), but FACTS.

I'll spare everyone the empirical data, but the research is incontrovertible:the level of education in any society is directly related to:
-crime rates
-unemployment rates (or underemployment rates)
-welfare useage
-women's rights
-racism
-sexism
-overal health of population
-countless other social/economic indicators of well-being

The bottom line is that the higher level of education in any one given community, the lower the negative social indicators (crime,welfare,unemployment,racism,etc....) and the higher the positive ones (income level,life expectancy,ect....)Of course this is not a direct link every single time for every single person on the planet (highly educated people can be unhappy, sick, and unproductive), but the data is overwhelming when taken as a whole picture.Our present government fails (and has failed for the past decade) to recognize this.Another fact I discovered is that, even if declining enrollment is taken into consideration, the Liberal government has decreased education funding-per-student for close to 10 years running.I've read proposed Bill 22, and the educational implications are very serious.How many people here commenting on the state of education in BC have actually read Bill 22 and can honestly say they understand what it means at a real-life, daily situation for teachers and students in this province - vs. the people simply stating that the government is broke, teachers are greedy and get summers off?I encourage people here to get informed about Bill 22 and what it means for both public education in this province and wrokers rights (this is a whole other story, and a freightening one at that).I'll just state a few other facts I learned on my way to becoming informed on this topic:MLA's in BC have received wage increases every year for the past decade and received a 30% across the board increase in 2007.They also voted to make their annual pay raises directly linked to the cost of living index so they'll never receive a pay increase lower than that, ever.No, I am not a teacher.But since I am contemplating having children in the near future, and I will not be able to afford private education like many of our MLA's do for their own children, I became informed - no I didn't write a PhD thesis on the topic, but I tried to get myself some information.This government and it's policies on education are a great concern to me.I'm NOT saying give teachers a huge raise, but the system needs to be invested in, and teachers need a role in determining the future of it.The government should not be making the kinds of decisions it is trying to make regarding public education without the equal input from ALL stakeholders.
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#225 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 05:30 PM

Many people here think that because they a)went to school once in their lives or b)that they pay tax - that they know how education is, or should be run. People do of course have the right to an opinion (at least for now in this province anyway) but I certainly wish that more people took the opportunity to get informed about this matter before commenting (I know, foolish for even thinking that on a message board, but I can dream can't I:).

In my research (yes, I actually did some research on education) I discovered a few FACTS, not opinions (I did discover many of those), but FACTS.

I'll spare everyone the empirical data, but the research is incontrovertible: the level of education in any society is directly related to:
-crime rates
-unemployment rates (or underemployment rates)
-welfare useage
-women's rights
-racism
-sexism
-overal health of population
-countless other social/economic indicators of well-being

The bottom line is that the higher level of education in any one given community, the lower the negative social indicators (crime,welfare,unemployment,racism,etc....) and the higher the positive ones (income level,life expectancy,ect....)Of course this is not a direct link every single time for every single person on the planet (highly educated people can be unhappy, sick, and unproductive), but the data is overwhelming when taken as a whole picture. Our present government fails (and has failed for the past decade) to recognize this.Another fact I discovered is that, even if declining enrollment is taken into consideration, the Liberal government has decreased education funding-per-student for close to 10 years running.I've read proposed Bill 22, and the educational implications are very serious. How many people here commenting on the state of education in BC have actually read Bill 22 and can honestly say they understand what it means at a real-life, daily situation for teachers and students in this province - vs. the people simply stating that the government is broke, teachers are greedy and get summers off?I encourage people here to get informed about Bill 22 and what it means for both public education in this province and wrokers rights (this is a whole other story, and a freightening one at that). I'll just state a few other facts I learned on my way to becoming informed on this topic:MLA's in BC have received wage increases every year for the past decade and received a 30% across the board increase in 2007. They also voted to make their annual pay raises directly linked to the cost of living index so they'll never receive a pay increase lower than that, ever. No, I am not a teacher. But since I am contemplating having children in the near future, and I will not be able to afford private education like many of our MLA's do for their own children, I became informed - no I didn't write a PhD thesis on the topic, but I tried to get myself some information. This government and it's policies on education are a great concern to me. I'm NOT saying give teachers a huge raise, but the system needs to be invested in, and teachers need a role in determining the future of it. The government should not be making the kinds of decisions it is trying to make regarding public education without the equal input from ALL stakeholders.


I like you.

Unfortunately our government's priority is housing all the criminals that will inevitably be spawned by poor educational standards. It's okay, not like kids need science. Put down that beaker, Billy. And pick up that can.

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#226 BobLoblaw

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:23 PM

I'm a teacher, and I'm a taxpayer, just like you.

The point of my post was to point out everyone has the right to have their opinion and that we should not simply be dismissive of those who aren't teachers. I am confused by the intent of your post. What are you trying to say?

#227 DYU3ster

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:43 PM

Something has to give. Since our economy is still in the midst of a recession and the government running a deficit budget that I find it hard for them to give teachers 15% increase in wages in 3 years. So, I can imagine probably imagine 6 percent increase in wages over 3 years as something reasonable. Hopefully this new contract agreement will set a max capacity per class as well as its an ongoing dispute that comes up again and again.

#228 мцт вяздк чф

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:24 PM

i like how the students walked out of class on friday in support of the teachers when in reality they just wanted time off.

keep striking teachers, that way our younger generation gets closer to that of the u.s. in the i.q. department. soon our kids will be saying the capital of canada is toronto too.


/puts on fireproof vest to protect from midget flamers on future posts/replies to come.

KIM JONG UN'S FAVORITE HOCKEY TEAM ARE THE KELOWNA ROCKETS.

JOHN SHORTHOUSE'S VOICE REMINDS ME OF KERMIT THE FROG.


#229 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

The point of my post was to point out everyone has the right to have their opinion and that we should not simply be dismissive of those who aren't teachers. I am confused by the intent of your post. What are you trying to say?


Why bother doing your due diligence and actually research the facts when you can spout off with baseless rhetoric and propaganda? It's much easier that way.

Like you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but if you are going to post on a sensitive and personal issue like this in a public forum then you owe it to the people involved to make sure it is informed. Its very insulting to teachers to here about how much the public hates them especially when it stems from false accusations.

That being said there is no need for the crusade bud, no one is being persecuted here.
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#230 BobLoblaw

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:28 PM

^^^ All points I agree with. The only reason I commented at all was because of the statement insinuating that opinions of those who aren't teachers are irrelevant. When trying to gain public support, that sentiment can result in turning people off from the cause.

Just stick to facts and the people who are receptive to listening will listen and come to their own reasoned conclusions. These are the only people the BCTF should be trying to reach.

#231 Canucksbiggestfan

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:34 PM

i like how the students walked out of class on friday in support of the teachers when in reality they just wanted time off.

keep striking teachers, that way our younger generation gets closer to that of the u.s. in the i.q. department. soon our kids will be saying the capital of canada is toronto too.


/puts on fireproof vest to protect from midget flamers on future posts/replies to come.


Not every student walked out of class to get time off, at my school only about 5 kids left and I believe they actually came back. I for one thought that the walk out was dumb an just a chance for kids to leave class early and I'm in high school.
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#232 Weber's Playoff Beard

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:58 PM

i like how the students walked out of class on friday in support of the teachers when in reality they just wanted time off.

keep striking teachers, that way our younger generation gets closer to that of the u.s. in the i.q. department. soon our kids will be saying the capital of canada is toronto too.


/puts on fireproof vest to protect from midget flamers on future posts/replies to come.


WTH are you talking about. That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

#233 goalie13

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:45 PM

Honestly, where do you come up with something this stupid? If you spent the time, the money, and put in the hard work (doing well as you went) to get through medical school, would you expect to go work as a janitor? It's NOT a sense of entitlement. If you do seven years of university, earning two degrees and a teaching certificate, while investing tens of thousands of dollars, you have EARNED the right to be a teacher. How is that selfish and how does that prove that someone should not be a teacher? "Hey, you put in all the time, work, and money required ... but you're selfish if you think you should now have a job".

Easily one of the dumbest comments I have ever read on these boards.


A small correction... I believe under those circumstances you have actually earned the right to apply for work as a teacher. Maybe that's where people are getting the sense of entitlement from.

My wife is a teacher and also a recent graduate. She has applied all over the province and there just aren't many positions out there. We had to move north just so she could get an on-call position. I read somewhere that there are 3 new teachers graduating each year for every 1 position that is available, and that doesn't take into account those that are still out there looking. In BC, we definitely have a surplus of teachers looking for work.
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#234 Resiliency

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:55 PM

A small correction... I believe under those circumstances you have actually earned the right to apply for work as a teacher. Maybe that's where people are getting the sense of entitlement from.

My wife is a teacher and also a recent graduate. She has applied all over the province and there just aren't many positions out there. We had to move north just so she could get an on-call position. I read somewhere that there are 3 new teachers graduating each year for every 1 position that is available, and that doesn't take into account those that are still out there looking. In BC, we definitely have a surplus of teachers looking for work.


I'm sure a few days of striking will be detrimental to the learning of our kids.

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#235 BDWolf

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:34 PM

It was stated earlier in this thread but I think the question needs to be asked. If the job is so bad and teachers are so under paid and over worked why don't they quit? Why is it that more and more people go to school to become a teacher? Are they dumb? This same debate comes up very few years. No current teacher can claim they had never heard this from the teachers union. Yet they still wanted to become a teacher.
I know many love to teach and help kids. I support smaller class sizes and more helpers for special needs. But they money has to come from some where. There is only so much money. And many other unions feel their government workers need more too.
_________________________________________

#236 Remy

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:38 PM

A small correction... I believe under those circumstances you have actually earned the right to apply for work as a teacher. Maybe that's where people are getting the sense of entitlement from.

My wife is a teacher and also a recent graduate. She has applied all over the province and there just aren't many positions out there. We had to move north just so she could get an on-call position. I read somewhere that there are 3 new teachers graduating each year for every 1 position that is available, and that doesn't take into account those that are still out there looking. In BC, we definitely have a surplus of teachers looking for work.


It doesn't help that they've closed schools like crazy. All of a sudden, yeah, the market is flooded.

I did a BA in English, did not expect that I had earned a job at that point. It's too general. But now, imagine getting your electrical ticket, instead of a BEd. That is specific. It requires specific training that doesn't really apply to much else. When you get that ticket, your plan is to work as an electrician. You have the same qualifications as all other recent grads, there isn't much you can do to set yourself apart. Most people need to do what your wife did and apply all over, just to have a chance. No, you do not receive a job offer upon graduation (even though that IS what happens with many other professional programs), but to find yourself in a position where you have to go years before landing a full-time position, that's not really acceptable. Everyone has different life circumstances, some people can move to where the jobs are, but some can't (not saying that's the case for me).

Again, it's not entitlement. It took a lot of work to get qualified. But it's not like it's just one or two people that struggle to find work, it's almost all of us. That's not a good thing, whatever you want to call it. Of course I've earned the right to apply, as you say, but there is not much that can be applied for, that's the problem.

Funny enough, for me personally, the absolute last sentiment I have is entitled. I tried very hard to find work in other areas because I wanted to test some other options. I'm not at all upset that, as of right now, I don't have a full-time gig. The problems I discussed are more generalities than anything. Like I said in my very first post, I'm still exploring different fields. Would that be the case even if it was easier to break into the teaching profession? Probably.

This has all been taken a bit out of context, at this point. What I initially said was that, based on how things currently are, a lot of teachers are looking for work in other areas and that students are missing out on good teachers. The work pool is slowly being degraded by lower wages, lack of prestige, and a lack of jobs upon graduation. When you have student loans, rent, and food bills, pragmatism is going to take over, sooner or later.

#237 Malaria

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:55 PM

You're supposed to get a note.. it's something the teacher outlines at the beginning of the year. You were already in high school for 4 years, to not know this, is unlikely. Take responsibility man.

That's just an excuse. I have never in all my education have ever had a tutor and I'm in university.


Did you read my post? I was sick the ENTIRE week. How was I suppose to bring him a note? And then it was winter break for two weeks. I didn't bring a note for the first class back and he tells me it's too late. I would have gotten a note had he told not told me it was too late.

Do you know her personally? I've partied with her and her friends a bunch of times and it's awkward at first, until i get drunkPosted Image


#238 canucks#01fan

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 12:18 AM

Many people here think that because they a)went to school once in their lives or b)that they pay tax - that they know how education is, or should be run. People do of course have the right to an opinion (at least for now in this province anyway) but I certainly wish that more people took the opportunity to get informed about this matter before commenting (I know, foolish for even thinking that on a message board, but I can dream can't I:).

In my research (yes, I actually did some research on education) I discovered a few FACTS, not opinions (I did discover many of those), but FACTS.

I'll spare everyone the empirical data, but the research is incontrovertible: the level of education in any society is directly related to:
-crime rates
-unemployment rates (or underemployment rates)
-welfare useage
-women's rights
-racism
-sexism
-overal health of population
-countless other social/economic indicators of well-being

The bottom line is that the higher level of education in any one given community, the lower the negative social indicators (crime,welfare,unemployment,racism,etc....) and the higher the positive ones (income level,life expectancy,ect....)Of course this is not a direct link every single time for every single person on the planet (highly educated people can be unhappy, sick, and unproductive), but the data is overwhelming when taken as a whole picture. Our present government fails (and has failed for the past decade) to recognize this.Another fact I discovered is that, even if declining enrollment is taken into consideration, the Liberal government has decreased education funding-per-student for close to 10 years running.I've read proposed Bill 22, and the educational implications are very serious. How many people here commenting on the state of education in BC have actually read Bill 22 and can honestly say they understand what it means at a real-life, daily situation for teachers and students in this province - vs. the people simply stating that the government is broke, teachers are greedy and get summers off?I encourage people here to get informed about Bill 22 and what it means for both public education in this province and wrokers rights (this is a whole other story, and a freightening one at that). I'll just state a few other facts I learned on my way to becoming informed on this topic:MLA's in BC have received wage increases every year for the past decade and received a 30% across the board increase in 2007. They also voted to make their annual pay raises directly linked to the cost of living index so they'll never receive a pay increase lower than that, ever. No, I am not a teacher. But since I am contemplating having children in the near future, and I will not be able to afford private education like many of our MLA's do for their own children, I became informed - no I didn't write a PhD thesis on the topic, but I tried to get myself some information. This government and it's policies on education are a great concern to me. I'm NOT saying give teachers a huge raise, but the system needs to be invested in, and teachers need a role in determining the future of it. The government should not be making the kinds of decisions it is trying to make regarding public education without the equal input from ALL stakeholders.

i agree 100% and to add onto the no class size limits, students are not getting the one on one help that many students need. its not only the teachers that are losing out but the students and thier futures aswell
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Credit to -Vintage Canuck- for avatar

#239 inane

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 09:45 AM

It was stated earlier in this thread but I think the question needs to be asked. If the job is so bad and teachers are so under paid and over worked why don't they quit? Why is it that more and more people go to school to become a teacher? Are they dumb? This same debate comes up very few years. No current teacher can claim they had never heard this from the teachers union. Yet they still wanted to become a teacher.
I know many love to teach and help kids. I support smaller class sizes and more helpers for special needs. But they money has to come from some where. There is only so much money. And many other unions feel their government workers need more too.


You answered your own question. Teachers want to teach because they want to teach. Not because they want to suck on the public tit.

Don't kid yourself, the money is out there. It's all about priorities. Education is not a priority for this government.

#240 goalie13

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:45 AM

Again, it's not entitlement. It took a lot of work to get qualified. But it's not like it's just one or two people that struggle to find work, it's almost all of us. That's not a good thing, whatever you want to call it. Of course I've earned the right to apply, as you say, but there is not much that can be applied for, that's the problem.

Funny enough, for me personally, the absolute last sentiment I have is entitled. I tried very hard to find work in other areas because I wanted to test some other options. I'm not at all upset that, as of right now, I don't have a full-time gig. The problems I discussed are more generalities than anything. Like I said in my very first post, I'm still exploring different fields. Would that be the case even if it was easier to break into the teaching profession? Probably.


Fair enough. However, to some, your stance came across that way. Since I am married to a teacher, I could hear where you were coming from.

The teaching profession is a funny thing. As recent as 10 - 12 years ago, if you wanted to be a teacher there were temporary contracts out there to be had. Sure it took a bit to get on full-time, but there were jobs available. At the very least, a graduate could sign up to be a TOC in almost any district they chose to.

Fast-forward to today and (unless you are French) you have to compete just to get on any TOC list. Enrollment is down and teachers are working longer, but there are more universities than ever pumping out graduates. We should have seen this coming. I know everyone has the right to pursue whatever career they want, but I think universities should have a bit of a reality check and take a look at how many new grads they are putting into the job market.

At the same time, I don't think any of that can be cured in a new collective agreement. Sure if there were some significant changes in class sizes there would be more teachers employed, but I still think there are too many grads entering the job market. We're lucky because I am able to take my job wherever she needs to go for teaching work, but not everybody is like that.

I think another part of the general entitlement issue comes from the overall contract demands. I'm all in favour of class size and composition restrictions and I think most people can get on board with that. Some of the things (class size, I.E.P.s) my wife has already had to deal with as a TOC are ridiculous. Where I think the BCTF loses marks with the public are in the other demands. Things like the 15% wage increase and extraordinary bereavement leave that we've all heard about just don't fly with the general public. Many people out there haven't had raises themselves in a number of years, so they wonder why the teachers should be any different.

If the BCTF came out with contract demands that were significantly closer to what people can get on board with, I think they would have way more of the public behind them. But that's just my take...
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