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Justin Trudeau - Suffering from Foot in Mouth - Canadian Style


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#301 ronthecivil

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

Silly


I find it much easier to ignore the right wingers that want to run my life than the left wingers who undermine it by destroying the economy even worse than Harper is with their outdated socialist leanings.

Rather than join forces with those that would have us become one nation under go or one nation in solidarity I would just as soon leave the extremists in the fringes where they belong and see consensus built in the middle.

A leaning to the left fringe would make as much sense as the recent republican moves to the tea party fringe - it guarantees scaring off any moderate.
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#302 J.R.

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:46 AM

NDP have already (and continue to) moved off the "fringe" and towards centre/moderate. I'd also like to note that the vast majority of countries that out rank us in all those livability/education/life expectancy yadda, yadda scores you see come out every year tend to be more socialistic (ie: left) in nature than us, not less.

This thinking that you can't have quality, well run social programs AND be fiscally responsible is idiotic. Numerous countries around the world do just that and out rank us on a great many livability/quality of life/education/health care etc standards. Why you wouldn't want to emulate that is beyond me.

Germany being an especially good example of this. They're pretty much propping up the entire EU and have excellent social programs, vast "green" initiatives and higher food/farming standards while retaining quality industries, manufacturing, tech etc.

Edited by J.R., 05 December 2012 - 11:49 AM.

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#303 Tearloch7

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:49 AM

NDP have already (and continue to) moved off the "fringe" and towards centre/moderate. I'd also like to note that the vast majority of countries that out rank us in all those livability/education/life expectancy yadda, yadda scores you see come out every year tend to be more socialistic (ie: left) in nature than us, not less.

This thinking that you can't have quality, well run social programs AND be fiscally responsible is idiotic. Numerous countries around the world do just that and out rank us on a great many livability/quality of life/education/health care etc standards. Why you wouldn't want to emulate that is beyond me.


Astutely said, Sir .. socialism has a place for everyone .. capitalism is the "biggest pig at the trough eats til he is glutted" .. "have you seen the little piggies, crawling in the dirt"? .. B)
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#304 J.R.

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:10 PM

Astutely said, Sir .. socialism has a place for everyone .. capitalism is the "biggest pig at the trough eats til he is glutted" .. "have you seen the little piggies, crawling in the dirt"? .. B)


There isn't anything wrong with capitalism per se either. Germany is still a capitalist country, they just also supplement that with fantastic social programs. The two aren't mutually exclusive and when used in conjunction, can create a very nice system for both industry AND people.
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#305 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM

NDP have already (and continue to) moved off the "fringe" and towards centre/moderate. I'd also like to note that the vast majority of countries that out rank us in all those livability/education/life expectancy yadda, yadda scores you see come out every year tend to be more socialistic (ie: left) in nature than us, not less.

This thinking that you can't have quality, well run social programs AND be fiscally responsible is idiotic. Numerous countries around the world do just that and out rank us on a great many livability/quality of life/education/health care etc standards. Why you wouldn't want to emulate that is beyond me.

Germany being an especially good example of this. They're pretty much propping up the entire EU and have excellent social programs, vast "green" initiatives and higher food/farming standards while retaining quality industries, manufacturing, tech etc


I seriously doubt that the NDP, or even an NDP contaminated united left would leave our country with quality industry, manufacturing, tech etc. I have yet to see an NDP government that doesn't call for the social programs you call for but at the same time they all tend to want to raise taxes on business. Higher taxes, tougher environmental laws, stronger labour rights, and more regulation in general might be populist but it's a sure fire way to drive business out of town. Especially the oil industry which is a favorite target of the left despite it paying massively into budgets (so much so that every time natural gas prices switch our own provincial budget takes a massive swing and our revenues from oil and gas are miniscule compared to the fed.).

Even the ultra low tax, high deficit, credit bubble forming conservatives are improvement on that. If you recall I even made a thread complaining about conservative economic policy but if all your trying to do is beat the NDP at that it's not a very high bar.

I have yet to see the NDP stray from any policy that wouldn't sound as though it came from a mouthpiece of big labour.
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#306 J.R.

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:31 PM

Not looking very hard then.
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#307 inane

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:46 PM

And Ron, what's so bad about environmental protection? Workers rights? Even higher taxes?

We all want better roads, schools, hospitals, transit--but then when it comes time to pay for it everyone pisses and moans. Well, you can't have it both ways.
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#308 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:19 PM

And Ron, what's so bad about environmental protection? Workers rights? Even higher taxes?

We all want better roads, schools, hospitals, transit--but then when it comes time to pay for it everyone pisses and moans. Well, you can't have it both ways.


Even under the conservatives we have environmental protection and workers rights. It's not 1960. The NDP are guaranteed to up the cost of doing business which means less business. We will have a preview of it next year don't worry.

Of course we all want the government to give us stuff and for someone else to pay for it. The NDP do that by offering entitlements to people and getting big business to pay for it. It's no bolder than the local mayors council putting a deadline to the province to come up with funding. Every politician is bold with their promises so long as they don't get blamed by the people getting the benefit for making them pay for it.

Taxing the heck out of the business community is no more magic than any other form of taxation. It can and does alter behaviour, in this case more often than not by packing their bags and leaving town or simply shutting down entirely.
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#309 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:20 PM

Not looking very hard then.


It's as obvious as saying the conservatives support the military or cracking down on crime.
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#310 J.R.

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:22 PM

Even under the conservatives we have environmental protection and workers rights. It's not 1960. The NDP are guaranteed to up the cost of doing business which means less business. We will have a preview of it next year don't worry.

Of course we all want the government to give us stuff and for someone else to pay for it. The NDP do that by offering entitlements to people and getting big business to pay for it. It's no bolder than the local mayors council putting a deadline to the province to come up with funding. Every politician is bold with their promises so long as they don't get blamed by the people getting the benefit for making them pay for it.

Taxing the heck out of the business community is no more magic than any other form of taxation. It can and does alter behaviour, in this case more often than not by packing their bags and leaving town or simply shutting down entirely.


Where do you get this thinking that they simply want to tax all business under one giant blanket?
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#311 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:25 PM

Where do you get this thinking that they simply want to tax all business under one giant blanket


Everything they have said my entire life?

OK, well not all the same. They might up the taxes even more on traditional villains like the banks and oil companies.

I seriously doubt there wouldn't be more regulations as well to add to the costs of all business.
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#312 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

Everything they have said my entire life?

OK, well not all the same. They might up the taxes even more on traditional villains like the banks and oil companies.

I seriously doubt there wouldn't be more regulations as well to add to the costs of all business.

Having personally experienced two NDP regimes in BC (Barrett and Harcourt/Clark/MIller/ Dosanjh), I am not looking forward to another. During economic good times they depressed the BC economy and it took years to "right" the ship. I shudder to think what would happen in fragile economic times.
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#313 J.R.

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

Ron, , the vast majority of countries routinely ranked ahead of say the USA (the self described "greatest country") in livability/education/health care etc have more social programs (including us). In other words, their people, overall (by those standards) are better off, happier, more educated, healthier etc with MORE social programs, not less.

So despite all this evidence and logic, people are still against social programs? Why is that? Is it just a feeling or sentiment of not wanting to pay for someone else's "free lunch"? Because all the evidence points to the contrary. Never mind that "sentiment" is a fairly poor way to make or vote on policy. I can also assure you that very few Canadians (or Germans, or Swiss or Japanese etc) actually think any of this is simply "free". We're quite aware that we pay taxes ;)

So help me understand, because I can't seem to find any logical argument for this line of thinking. It completely befuddles me.
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#314 Lancaster

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

People aren't necessarily against social programs, but just want government to be fiscally responsible. Just writing blank cheques will just make things worse in the long-run.

I would say most people would want a vibrant private sector, which in turn will generate a bigger tax revenue for government, which in turn can pay for more programs. Make a bigger pie, not give a larger portion of a shrinking one.
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#315 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

Having personally experienced two NDP regimes in BC (Barrett and Harcourt/Clark/MIller/ Dosanjh), I am not looking forward to another. During economic good times they depressed the BC economy and it took years to "right" the ship. I shudder to think what would happen in fragile economic times.


Wow, lucky you. The one I experienced in my lifetime required me to leave the country to find a job.

Edit: What will happen? Let's just say it won't be pretty. Any sort of economic contraction above and beyond the already coming multiple potential economic troubles (fiscal cliff, europe imploding, canadian personal debt levels, record high housing cost) run the risk of BC leading the whole country into a deep and bitter recession.

Edited by ronthecivil, 05 December 2012 - 05:23 PM.

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#316 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

Ron, , the vast majority of countries routinely ranked ahead of say the USA (the self described "greatest country") in livability/education/health care etc have more social programs (including us). In other words, their people, overall (by those standards) are better off, happier, more educated, healthier etc with MORE social programs, not less.

So despite all this evidence and logic, people are still against social programs? Why is that? Is it just a feeling or sentiment of not wanting to pay for someone else's "free lunch"? Because all the evidence points to the contrary. Never mind that "sentiment" is a fairly poor way to make or vote on policy. I can also assure you that very few Canadians (or Germans, or Swiss or Japanese etc) actually think any of this is simply "free". We're quite aware that we pay taxes ;)

So help me understand, because I can't seem to find any logical argument for this line of thinking. It completely befuddles me.


Um, ya.

But in Canada we already have good social programs. This isn't the states. Even with the conservatives in power we still have universal public healthcare (no matter how much it's bankrupting us), welfare, etc. etc.

We do need slightly higher taxes (like say putting the GST up that point that was taken off) but we don't need to start an attack on business in general.

BTW, in the states there's two problems. One is they don't have taxes high enough due to (the soon to expire as they go over the fiscal cliff) Bush tax cuts. But the other is that while they don't have socialism for the masses when you hit 65 they sure do and the way they run that part of their social system is even worse than us and the liabilities they have moving forward threaten to bankrupt the US even with the increased taxes.
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#317 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:20 PM

People aren't necessarily against social programs, but just want government to be fiscally responsible. Just writing blank cheques will just make things worse in the long-run.

I would say most people would want a vibrant private sector, which in turn will generate a bigger tax revenue for government, which in turn can pay for more programs. Make a bigger pie, not give a larger portion of a shrinking one.


Yep. And the one thing that seems to be ignored by everyone is interest payments which seem to be a second priority to the right and a non issue to the left.

A centrist government would run a surplus and the money freed up from interest payment could go towards tax cuts or improved social programs rather than robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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