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#91 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:38 PM

Let's go with the basic 1st year philosophy course on critical thinking, using the mini-thesis as a basis for support/defense. I've already said I'm of the opinion that smoking is not justified. I will support this opinion by taking the other side demonstrating that there is no basis for someone to want to smoke.

Thesis:

I smoke cigarettes and I am justified in doing so. I enjoy smoking cigarettes as they are relaxing and relieve stress.

Support:

Premise 1. All [relaxing forms of relieving stress] are appropriate in pursuing.
Premise 2. (Smoking cigarettes) is a [relaxing form of relieving stress].
Conclusion: (Smoking cigarettes) is something that is appropriate in pursuing.

Premise 1 counterexample: Slacking off is relaxing, as is beating off
Premise 2 counterexample: Someone who has been addicted for a while can view this as the stress.

Opposition:

Premise 1. All [substances which may cause cancer] is something that should not be pursued
Premise 2. (Smoking cigarettes) is a [substance which may cause cancer]
Conclusion: (Smoking cigarettes) is something that should not be pursued.

More relevant to the thread:

Thesis:

I smoke cigarettes in public areas where people are subject to my exhaust. I do this because I do not want to wait until I am at home.

I would create a support for this, but I honestly cannot make smoking in public justifiable, that’s where you come in CDC. Maybe rephrase it, I don’t know.


The opposition is obvious; the inevitable exhaust which willingly affects those around you is both toxic to their health and unwarranted. You would have to be some sort of sadist to want to damage the health of those around you.

Edited by Ossi Vaananen, 29 December 2012 - 05:43 PM.

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#92 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:38 PM

You are committing a logical fallacy commonly known as a

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#93 canucks since 77

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

<p>

<br />
No idea and you are constructing strawman arguments.<br />
<br />
If you stand next to me and smoke you have exposed me to a health risk by that simple act.<br />
<br />
If I stand next to you and consume an alcoholic beverage it has done you zero harm.<br />

<br />
</p>
Til you drink enough to override common sense, then look out. Talk about a strawman argument.
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#94 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

You know what you can do? Move the hell away from me. Simple as that...you see someone smoking a cigarette...instead of being a douche and complaining about the smoke...don't go around the smoke...I don't see what's so difficult about that...unless you're just lazy and like to complain.

It does not work that way.

You are the one causing the harm by smoking so it is incumbent upon you to act.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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#95 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

Til you drink enough to override common sense, then look out. Talk about a strawman argument.

You have just given a textbook example of a Strawman Argument in action.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#96 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

*
POPULAR

It does not work that way.

You are the one causing the harm by smoking so it is incumbent upon you to act.


If it were me it sure as hell WOULD work that way...especially if I'm smoking my cig and have been smoking it long before you come along...then I'm not only not going to move...I'm gonna tell you three words...and they won't be I love you. Smokers have every right that everyone else has...if you don't like the smoke...don't go around the smoke. If you don't like my fire...then don't come around...cos I'm gonna burn one down....
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#97 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:54 PM

If it were me it sure as hell WOULD work that way...especially if I'm smoking my cig and have been smoking it long before you come along...then I'm not only not going to move...I'm gonna tell you three words...and they won't be I love you. Smokers have every right that everyone else has...if you don't like the smoke...don't go around the smoke. If you don't like my fire...then don't come around...cos I'm gonna burn one down....

It has been my experience that when the issue is raised it is because the person smoking is in violation of the law.

In BC:


Where is smoking banned?
  • Smoking is not permitted in any fully or substantially enclosed public place or workplace.
  • Smoking is not permitted within 3 metres of most public or workplace doorways, open windows, or air intakes (i.e. a “buffer zone”).
  • Substantially enclosed transit shelters are smoke-free.
  • Common areas of apartment buildings, condominiums and dormitories are smoke-free.
  • Tobacco use of any kind, including smoking, is banned on all public and private K-12 school grounds.
  • In motor vehicles when youth under 16 years of age are present.

Can I smoke in my vehicle?
There are two situations when smoking is not allowed in a vehicle:
  • When it’s your work vehicle: under the Tobacco Control Act, smoking is banned inside all workplaces - and if are using a work vehicle, then it is a workplace and you cannot smoke inside it even if you are the sole occupant.
  • When someone under the age of 16 is in your vehicle: it is a violation of the Motor Vehicle Act to smoke in any vehicle when youth under 16 are present.
http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/tobacco/communities.html#q3
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#98 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

It has been my experience that when the issue is raised it is because the person smoking is in violation of the law.

In BC:


Where is smoking banned?

  • Smoking is not permitted in any fully or substantially enclosed public place or workplace.
  • Smoking is not permitted within 3 metres of most public or workplace doorways, open windows, or air intakes (i.e. a “buffer zone”).
  • Substantially enclosed transit shelters are smoke-free.
  • Common areas of apartment buildings, condominiums and dormitories are smoke-free.
  • Tobacco use of any kind, including smoking, is banned on all public and private K-12 school grounds.
  • In motor vehicles when youth under 16 years of age are present.
Can I smoke in my vehicle?
There are two situations when smoking is not allowed in a vehicle:
  • When it’s your work vehicle: under the Tobacco Control Act, smoking is banned inside all workplaces - and if are using a work vehicle, then it is a workplace and you cannot smoke inside it even if you are the sole occupant.
  • When someone under the age of 16 is in your vehicle: it is a violation of the Motor Vehicle Act to smoke in any vehicle when youth under 16 are present.
http://www.health.go...unities.html#q3



I'm not in BC.....nor Canada....I'm in the US...where Tobacco is a cash crop...and none of that applies here.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#99 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:07 PM

You are committing a logical fallacy commonly known as a

Posted Image


You are refusing to acknowledge that the effects of alcholol fueled violence and the actions of drunk drivers , affect a greater percentage of our population , than second hand smoke does.

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 29 December 2012 - 06:07 PM.

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#100 debluvscanucks

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

OK, here you go - one year of stats in the US:


In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.

Secondhand smoke exposure causes an estimated 46,000 heart disease deaths annually among adult nonsmokers in the United States.


And sometimes you can't move away from the smoke....at a bus stop for instance. At work, the guys like to step outside the door and the smoke all floats back inside....I asked them to move away from the door and that was a pretty simple compromise that they agreed to. As soon as they lit up, I could fee it in my throat and shouldn't have had to, so they understood this and moved. How could I have moved away from the smoke? (I couldn't have unless I left my work station).

They also won't allow perfume in the ICU based on the same sensitivities. Sure, it's my right to wear it but I also understand that it adversely affects some, so it's the least I can do.

In a bar, some people have asthma but still want to socialize....so you're saying they should "suck it up"? I think the smokers are the ones who should be (and are being) inconvenienced....they choose to smoke and the other people choose not to breathe it - so it has to work for everyone.

Smokers' rights do not trump others' - if I wanted to spray hairspray in my hair I wouldn't let'er rip....I'd politely go away from others in order to do so. The same applies with smoking - it's just a matter of being considerate instead of being a jerk.
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#101 Ossi Vaananen

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

I like the support deb, but even I want to see the source for that one.
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#102 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

I'm not in BC.....nor Canada....I'm in the US...where Tobacco is a cash crop...and none of that applies here.

Since this message board is pretty much BC centric your rants have little relevance then. And i would suggest that you not considering visiting given your inflated sense of self entitlement.

And there are even more restrictions on smoking within the City of Vancouver. The Vancouver Park Board has a bylaw in effect Since September 2010 that prohibits people from smoking in the city’s parks, beaches, playgrounds, and golf courses. And Vancouver extends the provincial smoke free buffer zone from three to six meters and includes customer service areas such as food carts, outdoor patios etc (“customer service area” means a partially enclosed or unenclosed area, including a balcony, patio, yard or sidewalk, that is part of or connected to or associated with a business or use in a building or premises that includes the service of food or alcoholic drinks to customers or other persons for consumption on site;) :


(e) within six metres measured on the ground from a point directly below any point of any opening into any building including any door or window that opens or any air intake;
(f) in a customer service area; or
(g) within six metres of the perimeter of a customer service area.
http://former.vancou...ylaws/9535c.PDF

Other municipalities also have rules that may be more restrictive than the BC law.

Metro Vancouver (22 municipalities in the Lower Mainland, one electoral area, and one treaty First Nation ) also introduced a smoking ban in 33 regional parks.
http://www.metrovanc...es/default.aspx
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#103 pimpcurtly

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

<p><br />
</p>
Til you drink enough to override common sense, then look out. Talk about a strawman argument.


Not everyone who drinks alcohol turns into a violent maniac who drives across town. Time to get some new friends maybe??
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#104 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:11 PM

You are refusing to acknowledge that the effects of alcholol fueled violence and the actions of drunk drivers , affect a greater percentage of our population , than second hand smoke does.

I am aware of the effects but they are completely different from exposure to second hand smoke.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#105 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:12 PM

OK, here you go - one year of stats in the US:

In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.

Secondhand smoke exposure causes an estimated 46,000 heart disease deaths annually among adult nonsmokers in the United States.


This is not direct causality, it's indirect causality....there are more mitigating factors in the cause of heart disease, even among non-smokers, than just secondhand smoke...the alcohol in question however directly causes the traffic fatalities....so it is a direct factor in those.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#106 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

OK, here you go - one year of stats in the US:

In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.

Secondhand smoke exposure causes an estimated 46,000 heart disease deaths annually among adult nonsmokers in the United States.


And what about the victims of alchololic fueled violence ? How many of them are there ?
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#107 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:15 PM

Since this message board is pretty much BC centric your rants have little relevance then. And i would suggest that you not considering visiting given your inflated sense of self entitlement.

And there are even more restrictions on smoking within the City of Vancouver. The Vancouver Park Board has a bylaw in effect Since September 2010 that prohibits people from smoking in the city’s parks, beaches, playgrounds, and golf courses. And Vancouver extends the provincial smoke free buffer zone from three to six meters and includes customer service areas such as food carts, outdoor patios etc (“customer service area” means a partially enclosed or unenclosed area, including a balcony, patio, yard or sidewalk, that is part of or connected to or associated with a business or use in a building or premises that includes the service of food or alcoholic drinks to customers or other persons for consumption on site;) :


(e) within six metres measured on the ground from a point directly below any point of any opening into any building including any door or window that opens or any air intake;
(f) in a customer service area; or
(g) within six metres of the perimeter of a customer service area.
http://former.vancou...ylaws/9535c.PDF

Other municipalities also have rules that may be more restrictive than the BC law.

Metro Vancouver (22 municipalities in the Lower Mainland, one electoral area, and one treaty First Nation ) also introduced a smoking ban in 33 regional parks.
http://www.metrovanc...es/default.aspx


I'd suggest you get bent. I have as much right to speak on this board as you do. And who the hell do you think you are telling me not to consider visiting? Here's a newsflash for you...I'll visit if I damn well feel like it.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#108 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:17 PM

I'd suggest you get bent. I have as much right to speak on this board as you do. And who the hell do you think you are telling me not to consider visiting? Here's a newsflash for you...I'll visit if I damn well feel like it.

Feel free to do so but I would suggest that you leave your belligerence at home and obey the laws of the land when you arrive.

You appear to have some serious mental issues. You may want to consider dealing with those.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Illegitimi non carborundum.

Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#109 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:21 PM

I am aware of the effects but they are completely different from exposure to second hand smoke.


Many places are now considered unsafe in melbourne due to intoxicated people wandering the streets commiting acts of violence , the same cannot be said for the effects of second hand smoke .
What i have been trying to point out is that the negative effects of alcohol consumption touch a greater percentage of people than the negative effects of second hand smoke
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#110 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Feel free to do so but I would suggest that you leave your belligerence at home and obey the laws of the land when you arrive.

You appear to have some serious mental issues. You may want to consider dealing with those.


And who are you, Sigmund Freud now? I'm perfectly calm, my friend...I'm speaking MY OPINION on a debate about smoking. Now...seeing as how I am on-topic with everything I am posting, and also seeing as how you feel it's your duty to psychoanalyze an anonymous poster on an internet message board...I think it may be you who has the mental issues...namely "delusions of grandeur" when it comes to your own opinion. I've already stated that I no longer smoke cigarettes, but I have friends who do...and as long as tobacco is legal...they oughta be able to smoke anyplace they want as long as it's an adult establishment and not a family restaurant or something like that. Just because I live in a different area than the one you are blathering about the rules for does not make my opinion irrelevant sir.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#111 pimpcurtly

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Many places are now considered unsafe in melbourne due to intoxicated people wandering the streets commiting acts of violence , the same cannot be said for the effects of second hand smoke .
What i have been trying to point out is that the negative effects of alcohol consumption touch a greater percentage of people than the negative effects of second hand smoke


Your pitch to bring back prohibition is quite convincing...Ill give you that. ;)
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#112 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Many places are now considered unsafe in melbourne due to intoxicated people wandering the streets commiting acts of violence , the same cannot be said for the effects of second hand smoke .
What i have been trying to point out is that the negative effects of alcohol consumption touch a greater percentage of people than the negative effects of second hand smoke

Crazy drunk Aussies, what can you do?

However that does not change the fact that committing crimes while drunk is quite different from exposure to toxic secondhand smoke.
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#113 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:25 PM

And who are you, Sigmund Freud now? I'm perfectly calm, my friend...I'm speaking MY OPINION on a debate about smoking. Now...seeing as how I am on-topic with everything I am posting, and also seeing as how you feel it's your duty to psychoanalyze an anonymous poster on an internet message board...I think it may be you who has the mental issues...namely "delusions of grandeur" when it comes to your own opinion. I've already stated that I no longer smoke cigarettes, but I have friends who do...and as long as tobacco is legal...they oughta be able to smoke anyplace they want as long as it's an adult establishment and not a family restaurant or something like that. Just because I live in a different area than the one you are blathering about the rules for does not make my opinion irrelevant sir.

Alcohol is legal but there are numerous restrictions upon it including where it may be consumed.

Your uninformed opinion carries little weight and runs contrary to the accepted wisdom of the lawmakers, medical profession and the general public here in BC.

Your position seems delusional. YMMV.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 29 December 2012 - 06:29 PM.

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#114 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:26 PM

DP

Edited by Wetcoaster, 29 December 2012 - 06:26 PM.

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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#115 Grapefruits

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

If it were me it sure as hell WOULD work that way...especially if I'm smoking my cig and have been smoking it long before you come along...then I'm not only not going to move...I'm gonna tell you three words...and they won't be I love you. Smokers have every right that everyone else has...if you don't like the smoke...don't go around the smoke. If you don't like my fire...then don't come around...cos I'm gonna burn one down....


No they don't. Smokers have the responsibility to stay out of certain areas that have been deemed "Non Smoking" You wanna smoke in a public place that is deemed that while no one is around, fill your boots. Someone comes into that are, its you're responsibility to leave and give them the necessary space.

Many places are now considered unsafe in melbourne due to intoxicated people wandering the streets commiting acts of violence , the same cannot be said for the effects of second hand smoke .
What i have been trying to point out is that the negative effects of alcohol consumption touch a greater percentage of people than the negative effects of second hand smoke


Still doesn't justify a reason to expose non smokers to 2nd hand smoke

Edited by zero-ONE-three, 29 December 2012 - 06:30 PM.

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#116 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

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Your uninformed opinion carries little weight and runs contrary to the accepted wisdom of the lawmakers, medical profession and the general public here in BC.

Your position seems delusional. YMMV.


Hey guess what pal...I'm not in BC...so I could give a diddly crap about what some stuffed shirts, lawyers and doctors in BC have to say about smoking. As this is a debate on SMOKING...my opinion is far from irrelevant....someone get this guy the jaws of life before he suffocates himself...holy toledo....
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#117 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:29 PM

No they dont,


Still doesn't justify a reason to expose non smokers to 2nd hand smoke


Uh yeah...as citizens...they actually do...have the same exact rights as any other citizen.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#118 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

Hey guess what pal...I'm not in BC...so I could give a diddly crap about what some stuffed shirts, lawyers and doctors in BC have to say about smoking. As this is a debate on SMOKING...my opinion is far from irrelevant....someone get this guy the jaws of life before he suffocates himself...holy toledo....

Since you are posting on a board made up almost exclusively of residents of British Columbia, surely you can see how strange such an opinion would be.
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#119 Grapefruits

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

Uh yeah...as citizens...they actually do...have the same exact rights as any other citizen.


As pointed out, there are rules that smokers must follow while smoking that non smokers do not have to follow.
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#120 pimpcurtly

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

Uh yeah...as citizens...they actually do...have the same exact rights as any other citizen.


So the people who work in the bars are just SOL when it comes to working in a toxic environment?
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