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Posts posted by 13231
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20 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:
Canucks fans are a tough crowd. They just hired someone and right away there's people bashing the hire and spewing negativity. Give these people a chance!
JR is assembling a team who plan on bringing a championship to VAN. What's there to complain about? They're making smart hires with their analytics department, they hired Castonguay which is a very positive step.
Looking at PIT's drafting over the years and blaming Allvin is ridiculous. Forget who they drafted, they won Cups.
I think people have been pretty level headed to the announcements so far. If anything, there seems to be quite a bit of extreme misguided optimism and this notion that we have this vast & diverse management group. That's far from true, we have the Pittsburgh Penguins management 2.0 circa 2019. This wave of vocal optimism sets up huge & probably unreachable short term expectations, imo.
The same people that lost their minds when we traded firsts for Miller, OEL & Garland seem to be the ones most excited by the recent hirings. And for context, this exact management team has traded firsts for the likes of Ryan Reaves and Jason Zucker in recent years lol. This group has done some things really well in the past, and made some outright terrible decisions as well. Let's hope they are more experienced now and do more of what worked well for them. The next two years of the decisions they make will be crucial for the next decade of our team's results.
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5 minutes ago, appleboy said:
GM's are only as good as the people around them. Benning didn't surround himself with enough quality people. JR is putting a much larger group of people into place. Will they bring us a winning organization? Who knows but he is building something that looks more like an organization instead of just a management team.
Some of us were discussing Martin and I was wondering about his waiver status. He is on emergency loan so waiver exempt .
So far, aside from Castonguay, that "much larger" group basically consists of the executive team JR had as GM in Pittsburgh. And if you look into the end of that group's tenure, it's kind of a scary site. Let's hope this is a new and improved version of the 2015-2017 management team and not the same vision that ran the Penguins subsequent to the cup wins.
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23 minutes ago, DefCon1 said:So let me get this straight. You are not high on JR who won the cup back to back recently with the Pens as a GM and has 3 cups with 2 different teams. But on the other hand you defend Benning who hired Weisbrod, let Brackett and Malhotra go and had loyalty to Green and Baumgartner to a fault. He is the reaso our team doesnt have any depth on D and still deploys an offensively inept bottom 6. The reason why we will miss the playoffs again while also have nothing in our farm team. He did draft well but then when you dont make playoffs for many years and end up as bottom 5 to 10 team, then you will also get to draft better players.
Your whole premise of defending Benning is based on the fact he made several good moves but you dont acknowledge the fact that we are atill a bottom 10 team.
JR is a qualified hockey executive, nobody can take away his cups and his success with the teams he build in those years from him. He is however also responsible for a steep decline the Hurricanes endured in the last 5 years he was in charge, and his moves during his last few years in Pittsburgh were also baffling, to say the least. You cannot just acknowledge his cups & then completely void and ignore his shortcomings and failures that are also a part of his history, which hurt his teams long term. You are actually applying this one sided approach in your analysis of Benning, by focusing solely on his failures rather than accepting he also did some very good things to help set up our team long term.
I have, and still stand by the fact that Benning's biggest mistake was hanging on to Green for as long as he did, which warranted his firing. I've said that on record on this board on at least 1 or 2 topics. But where you and I differ I suppose is that I'm not turning a blind eye to the other side of a person's tenure, and focusing singularly on a narrative that supports my opinion. Hockey is not something you can analyse by a black and white approach, you'll find a lot of answers when you acknowledge context and nuances.
And no, we are not a bottom 10 team. For the past few months, we have played some of the best hockey in the NHL with a roster Benning assembled, while being decimated with COVID and all sorts of restrictions AND while missing key pieces of our roster. I cannot even recall the last time we played with our entire roster intact, yet we are still keeping up with the playoff race, and winning or at least staying competitive against some of the league's best teams.
We are in a position to become a very good team, thanks to several moves Benning made, and thanks to Aquaman pulling the plug on Green and co. and bringing in a great coach in Boudreau. Now, it is up to JR and his selected front office to bring the team over the top. Will he do it? He certainly can, and I truly hope he does. But I am cautious and will wait to see the moves this front office makes before blindly getting on board just because JR has won some cups. So have Chiarelli, Holland, and several others.
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25 minutes ago, DefCon1 said:
Well good thing he has many smart people around him and JR at the top guiding us. Its not like Benning who only had Aquaman at the top to ask for advice while being saddle by someone even dumber than him as AGM.
As with anything, there's no guarantee. The only person with a solid resume thus far is JR himself, but with how he left things in Pittsburgh, I am cautiously not as high on him as many people in the fan base are. The real evaluation of this hockey ops team will come from the trades, signings, and draft choices they makes over the next 12-18 months, not from how professionally they've talked to the media so far.
It is also distasteful and ignorant to call Benning dumb. He did several great things for this organisation that will be appreciated with time. History will be kinder to him than many of the short sighted fans and media members that had a weird obsession with deeply scrutinizing his every move, majority of times without any relevant context or facts.
This is a make or break moment in club history. If things are done right, we can become a perennial contender within 2-3 years. If not, we'll be back in a definite rebuild. Let's hope JR & co do the right things.
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There is not enough information at hand to properly assess this hiring as a fan, and we definitely do not have the insights that JR does. That being said, and with the information that is available, I really hope Allvin is surrounded and supported by a much better scouting staff than he headed. This hiring is something that will be evaluated properly 3-4 years down the line, but I certainly hope Allvin is capable of succeeding at the task in hand and is not an experiment by JR. We cannot afford to have a hit or miss GM right now, we need a guy who can strongly build around this core and get it over the top.
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Had a feeling Petey was due for a big game and he came through. Also monster games by Motter, Poolman, Pearson & Boeser who seemed to be everywhere and breaking the Caps' momentum several times while generating offensive opportunities. Demko an absolute beauty as always. And noticeably good games by Highmore, Myers and Bo. Just wish we stopped with the passive play on the PK, otherwise we were overall definitely the better team.
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1 hour ago, Coconuts said:
Yes and no.
Game one. was a shutout, he did his job. Game two was a 3-2 OT win. Game three we were crushed 8-1, some of that's def on Luongo. Game four we lost 4-0, you can blame Luongo but zero run support. Game five was a shutout, credit Luongo. Game six we lost 5-2, two goals ain't much but Luongo shoulders some blame. Game seven we lost 4-0.
Luongo had two shutouts in the final, and during two of his losses we were shutout. We didn't score much at all during the final, totaling eight goals in seven games.
When you score eight goals in seven games during the Stanley cup final the goaltender shouldn't get the lion's share of the blame. People make it out as if he melted down the entire time, which simply isn't true. We got cooked a few times but had we been scoring goals those games could have gone very differently, it's also on the defense to help stop goals. We made a run to the final, but by the time we got there most of the team was crawling.
Not that I'm razzing you or anything, Luongo just gets a hard rap for how that final played out and I don't think it's entirely right.
Awh man, haven't been part of this debate in years lol but this is a pretty fair analysis game by game. Although Luongo played great in the games we won, what ended up making the difference was that he played terrible in the games we lost, especially games 3 &4. At the same time, Thomas stood on his head and provided truly elite goaltending. We were out of those games due to the unbelievably soft goals Lu let in in quick successions while Thomas stopped literally everything thrown his way. Luongo didn't deserve all the blame, but he rightfully shouldered a lot of it. His great performances were great and his weak ones sunk the team 10-15 minutes into the first periods. His opponent was consistently incredible and kept his team in every game.
Anyways, back to 2022 lol and I honestly believe Demko has the potential to be an even better goalie than Luongo, I hope he rounds his game up and executes with extreme consistency like the truly great goalies of each generation.
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4 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:
He hasn't had success in over two years! This isn't a blip he's in. It's a Loui Player Name type pattern we're seeing.
There's a significant difference between Petey and LE. LE was doing the little things that nobody knew how to quantify, Petey is driving play and creating chances. I have a lot of confidence that he will bounce back. Reminds me of first few years of Mackinnon's career where he was trying to figure it all out.
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2 minutes ago, Canuckfanforlife82 said:
Why does Petey deserve mercy in the wave of criticism? He’s been awful and makes so much money.
I'm speaking of his performance in today's game where he was probably the only noticeable forward besides Horvat and Pearson in a good way. Overall we definitely need the 2018-20 Petey back but I think he's getting there, his lack of success in recent games in not for the lack of effort.
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Looked like textbook Travis Green hockey today. The way Carolina was forechecking and pressuring our forwards in their zone is what we were beginning to play like, but somehow it all fell apart today in this game. Long lapses of passive hockey were significantly apparent tonight, on top of terrible passing, breakouts and an overtly cute powerplay. Still giving the team benefit of the doubt because they played well in Florida after such a strange 2 week break, but I hope BB rips them apart for this effort.
I have a feeling Petey will begin to click soon, his effort is visible and he's consistently creating chances. I hope he's shown a little mercy today by the wave of criticism the team will deservedly face today.
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19 minutes ago, iinatcc said:
at this point, specifically if anyone actually wants this team to make the playoffs this season, a 4-2 loss is the same as a 10-1 loss. Neither moves you up in the standings. Likewise a 1-0 regulation win is as good 7-2 win at this point.
I'm not debating the implications of the losses, ideally we win every game. But the overreactions are not valid,. The team is coming off of a 2 week break and put right into a road trip against the league's best teams, and is holding its own. The Petey trade suggestions, calls for rebuilds, scorched earth trade deadline movements should all wait if and until the losses pile on for the next 7-10 days. There is a reason we have a reputation as one of the most volatile & sensitive fan bases in hockey, these last two PGTs are indisputable evidence.
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Reading the boards right now you'd think we've absolutely gotten blown out 2 games in a row. Reality however points to us being pretty competitive against arguably two of the best teams in the NHL after a prolonged period of time off (which happened in the midst of a historic winning streak). Some of these overreactions are scary. Give the team another 7-10 of regular play and save the absolute verdicts until then.
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6 hours ago, thrago said:
I don't think Green was a bad coach, but I do think he should have come into the league as an assistant coach. I think that the lack of tools he had to work with due to his lack of experience, plus the fact he was surrounded with other rookie coach's put him in a situation that when his system wasn't working he didn't know what to do to fix it. I think if his next gig is as an assistant coach under an experienced coach he can go on to have a good career or even if he had more experienced assistants, would help him out a lot as well.
Green was a bad coach, all facts and information point to that conclusion. His stubbornness & inability to adapt his systems to the strengths of the roster was just one of multitude mistakes that he made. I honestly can't find a single redeeming factor in his coaching, every aspect of it was disastrous or close to it.
I also cannot see how he could be useful to any team as an assistant. What does he bring to the table to any coaching staff? His clear inability to see and adjust to the ineptitude of his systems for such long periods is not something most GMs would just overlook. They will not easily forget how horrendous this season was under his coaching.
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What I've observed from following the media and a chunk of our fanbase (people I know personally; friends, family, comments on social media), is that they view hockey in a very black and white manner. The team is either a cup contender, or just awful. Many of them don't even watch the games, just blindly believe the echo chamber guys like Drance, Macintyre, etc project. The nuances that impact this team are often ignored or completely overlooked. However, many people who watch this team game in, game out, along with watching a lot of the rest of the NHL play, knew pretty well all along that our defense is quite solid. I'd say when healthy, we're top 15 in the NHL.
The problem all along was the horrid system the defense and our entire team was made to play. Green and Baumgartner enforced a playing style which was so incompetent that it made the defense look like it was that bad. We have two bonafide number 1 defensemen in Hughes and OEL. Yes, OEL is still a number 1 defenseman. The rest of the D is rounded up by guys like Myers, Poolman, Hamonic, etc that are very solid players themselves in their roles. We can still upgrade, no doubt, but we are by no means weak defensively and all numbers are pointing to this fact.
We have a very volatile fanbase and toxic media. This is a just a fact we have to live with. Best thing to do is try to educate the people that we know bit by bit about the nuances of the game and what is actually unfolding with all factors considered. I'm not trying to be condescending, I don't like arguing with people about hockey at all, but it just gets extremely annoying when people who know very little about the game constantly whine about it the loudest.
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On 12/19/2021 at 5:23 AM, canuck73_3 said:
There is a lack of objectivity on the Green is an awful coach side though.
The truth is more in the middle whether you like it or not.
Coming back to the boards after a while and seeing your post now. You are yet to present a single fact/stat/pattern to affirm your statement. Not a single thing you said can be qualified as an objective statement. Your whole argument is contingent on a single sentence, basically stating that because Green made it to the NHL as a head coach, it unequivocally makes him a good coach. Furthermore, you have not reverted to a single point myself or the other member who's a part of this conversation has made, points which are based on analysis of systems and roster deployment, supported by relevant numbers.
Unless you can reply to any of the above with a comprehensive post, with a rebuttal relevant to facts and something other than "Green is a good coach because that's how I feel", then I'm sorry it is just plainly foolish to engage in any further conversation with you.
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2 hours ago, Alienhuggyflow said:
100% and how blind was I lol but for me once I was able to see how they played away from TG it became noticeable right away.
What bugs me is Benning brings in Shsw but TG acts like a dick basically wasting a great asset that Jim brought in to help him.
That's the epitome of dumb.
Words cannot describe the incompetence of Travis Green. I don't think I will ever completely fathom how inept, arrogant and stubborn that man was. Glad some of his former supporters have enough integrity to dissect his methods & consequently admit that they were wrong. There are still many spinning the narrative that he is a good coach, just the team is now playing better because JB is gone and the players are relieved lmao
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1 hour ago, CanucksJay said:
I am hoping Green defenders like @canuck73_3 just want the Green bashing to stop because they are nice guys and don't want any canuck current or former being lambasted in the forum. Problem is, they are not being objective and are completely going against what is actually happening on the ice since the coaching change and therefor are losing credibility and creating more arguments for insisting on a lost cause.
Ironically the Green bashing won't stop until Green defenders stop popping up trying to validate that "good coach" statement lol. And that's what bothers me too, a narrative being given weight that completely goes against all facts & objectivity.
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1 hour ago, canuck73_3 said:
Just because he was no longer a fit here doesn’t make him an awful coach, which is all I have said he is a good coach you don’t get a job in the NHL as a head coach but not being a good coach. To say otherwise is truly delusional. Is he a great coach? Absolutely not, he is a good coach who was not and may never have been a good fit with the rosters we had though.
Simply being employed by a NHL team does not automatically grant you the status of being a good NHL coach. He was a good AHL coach (even that's up for debate), therefore got promoted. What he did here with the team is completely bizarre and went against all common sense. It's no coincidence that Boudreau undid everything he taught and our team is now looking dramatically different. You also say he's a good coach but just not for this team, but how do you quantify that when he has only coached one NHL team and failed badly at it?
Mike Milbury was also a GM in the NHL, was he a good GM too by your definition? You judge someone's qualities based on what they've delivered, and the evidence for Green speaks for itself.
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14 hours ago, CanucksJay said:
So what happened this year then?
Was the damage already done?
Only thing to do was replace JB and TG before season started or season was lost? Where were you during training camp then?
Nothing to do with coaching strategies or deployment right?
If the NHL doesnt call off the game tomorrow, will the guys turn on JR and Smyl too? They'll just stop trying?
Anybody can see it wasnt effort that was the issue. It was systems and coaching but sure, keep insisting that wasnt the case...
BB didnt need to change anything. Problem was solved when we fired Benning...
Let's have BB revert back to green's lines and have petterson playing with Dickinson and Dowling or whoever
Let's park Podz on the bench in the 3rd
Lets park Chiasson as net front on pp1 and have the unit pass it around the entire time.
Let's go back into passive box on the pk with our grinders.
Let's play that high event hockey strategy and stay in zone defence in a shell and wait for a turnover and then transition by dump and chase.
Damn this is hilarious. Yeah it wasn't coaching....
Man nothing makes me cringe harder than those people who say "GreEn iS a gOod CoAcH" and @canuck73_3 insisting that he was is just plain delusion at this point. It's shocking that there are still people out there defending Green's preposterous coaching. I don't know how anyone can objectively refute any of the points you made here. And this doesn't even cover all of Green's incompetence.
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All the trade discussion here sounds baseless and premature right now. What the quotes from the organization and common sense suggests is that the team will be evaluated carefully now, as to where it clearly stands under the new coaching staff. Everything will be determined from that point forward. Up until the Olympic break would be the timeline I assume.
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6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:
You can't hire a President and change the coach and then keep the same GM. It doesn't work that way. Jim needs to be able to bring in his own guy. Let's hope it's the right guy.
Idk Petey, you might be right because I'm not aware of the precedent in this situation. Seldom see a coach & GM being fired during the season when there's no PoHo. Just would've been a decent option to keep Benning until at least the off season and see how his team performs under a new coach, that would give JR enough time to find a replacement if necessary as well. Either way, that ship has sailed and we all just hope now that JR makes the right choice choosing the next GM.
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I'm fine with JR being PoHo, his insights to the team would be very beneficial. Dean Lombardi as GM would be an amazing final piece. Need someone of his pedigree to push to team to contender realm at this point.
Hot take: Benning should not have been fired until the off-season, should've been given a chance with JR in the PoHo position.
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Green watching us right now- "That's a good team over there"
Man, I cannot express how happy I am to watch our team be coached by people like BB, Walker, and Shaw. It was complete insanity what Green and Baumer had been doing to this team. I can't believe there's people who actually thought Green was a great coach, while he repeated obvious mistakes and deteriorated players' attributes and the team's psyche for a terribly prolonged period of time.
The hockey we are playing right now is what this team is built for. A refined version of this (which will come with time) is what gets teams into deep playoff runs. Ffs I'm so happy to not see the passive box, a new line combo every 2 minutes, a random benching or a static power play anymore. We are now playing games to win them, not playing scared to lose.
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7 minutes ago, RakuRaku said:
Simple answer to #1 is, Green just signed a new extension so Aqualini may not wanna cough up $ to compensate Green unless there's an awesome coach out there there can right the ship guaranteed!!
Any reasonable GM or owner would see by this point how big of a failure our coaching staff is, and the fact our players have tuned them out. But I guess this just means we have an equally clueless owner who is too worried about a coaching contract wasted than the well being of the team & fan base
The truth is more in the middle whether you like it or not.
[Report] Canucks name Patrik Allvin as GM
in Canucks Talk
Posted
I mean this is the most non-offensive way, as I'm not trying to trigger anyone or start an argument, but I genuinely find the irony on the boards today absolutely hilarious. The people who constantly critiqued the previous regime's drafting, trades and signings are fervently singing the new management's praises today. Have you seen the draft picks, trades and signings these guys made in their last 3 years working together?
Not to say our new front office will be inevitably bad, they have my full support as a fan and I wish them nothing but the best. But the fickleness & the paradox in people's views is nothing short of comical.