The Official Transit Thread

[nitronuts]

^ well, the money has to come from somewhere to just even maintain existing service. We've been warned that this would happen for the last 3 years, and we're now at the 11th hour of either going back to 1970 bus levels or improving transit for the betterment of our region.

[inane]

Source? Keep in mind the province is already in the process of subsidising other taxes by introducing another 9 cents a litre on gas taxes, never mind the ginourmous royalties from our oil and gas industry, or the existing gas taxes. Show me a balance sheet of total taxes collected, and assign costs to those various sundry items, and you will have a point. But unless you prove it, no one is going to give a damn.

Source?

Which items on my list do you think I'm making up? Which items on my list are free or are not worsened by automobiles?

This is the thing with you engineers. If you can't assign a direct monetary value to it (health costs, time costs, noise pollution costs, etc...) it doesn't count. Too bad the real world doesn't work like that.

[ronthecivil]

I do hope that Translink, the Council of Mayors, and the Ministry will hold their head up high and refuse to cave in to the public backlash like how the NDP reacted with the Translink car levy in 2000. There are simply far too many single-occupancy vehicles out there when many could be using transit. And inane is certainly on the ball with the impacts of vehicles.

If Translink doesn't get this money it needs, among things that will happen:

- slashing of 40% of the region's bus service, essentially back to 1970 levels

- selling the seven West Coast Express cars currently on order

- maintaining roads at 25 per cent of committed levels

The only compromise I'd have with these levys and tolls is if we see drastically improved transit service right away, especially south of the Fraser. Flood it with new bus routes and much higher frequency bus schedules; more buses! You can't punish people for their transportation lifestyle if you don't give them a competent alternative.

Surrey's Mayor Watts said it best: “We have another million people moving into the Lower Mainland in the next couple of decades...we can’t go backwards.”

Do note that much of Translink's problems also come from its rather large mandate. Unlike many agencies like it around the world, it's responsible for not just public transit BUT ALSO BUILDING AND MAINTAINING ROADS.

EXACTLY. So if you upgrade said bridges, nobody minds if you slap a toll on them. You could even up it a little to provide some gravy for transit. But if it's a flat out cash grab, operation tax payer revolt will be full board, no matter how "right" it is.

[The Analyst]

All of you yuppy anti-car blah blah hippies get your facts together before you start telling me "you better take transit then if you don't want to pay the costs"

I live in Po-Co and work down town. My options....

a-take hwy 1

b-take hwy 7

c-take west coast express

d-take bus to CTC station, transfer to lougheed take skytrain..

let's add the expenses....

fuel cost parking fees time

a - $5/day 11/day 0 2 hours (1 hour each way)

b - $5/day 11/day 0 2 hours (1 hour each way)

c - $1/day 4/day 12.50/day 3 hours (1.5 hours each way - specific train times)

d - $0/day 0/day 4.53/day 4 hours (2 hours each way - specific train/bus times)

now... a and b (driving) costs 16 per day and I waste 2 hours of my day commuting.

c - costs me 17.50 per day and takes 30 min longer

d - saves me 12 dollars per day, but takes twice as long...

so what is your time worth to you.... ?

i'm no high level executive but making $25/hour is where i see my time as being valued.

if i spent 4 hours in traffic that $100 that me or my company miss in earned business because i'm not working.

maybe for you $8 burger flippers you can waste away on the 97 b-line, you time isn't worth it.... mine is.

MY POINT, MAKE TRANSIT A VIABLE OPTION AND I WILL USE IT... YOU CONTINUE TO PUNISH DRIVERS WITH RIDICULOUS TOLLS, FEES, TAXES, SURCHARGES, PREMIUMS AND TAKE AWAY ROADS AND GIVE THEM TO HIPPY BIKE RIDERS. GIVE ME AN OPTION BETTER THAN DRIVING AND I'LL USE IT. UNTIL THEN, I'LL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GET IN MY OVERPRICED CAR, FILL IT WITH TAX AND LEVIED FUEL, BURN THAT FUEL OVER A GRIDLOCKED HWY, PAY MY OUTRAGEOUS PARKING FEE, AND BURN THAT FUEL ALL THE WAY HOME. UNLESS YOU WANT TO GIVE ME $50/day NOT TO DRIVE...........

Edited July 31, 2009 by The_Analyst

[Common sense]

Find the alternative that'll get you from point A to B while taking up only twice as much time, while still making it out alive.

- buses? nope. they don't exist south of the Fraser.

- bikes? nope. that'll make you grow a superiority complex and think you're king of the road, and then you get ran over.

Perhaps the irony is that you say you appreciate the need for cars to be on the road (whether it be for commercial, private, or emergency use), and yet you're suggesting policies that'll restrict movement of them, to the point where there will be standstill and congestion. Sadly, buses and other forms of transit are susceptible to this congestion ('cept for Skytrain, cuz it's in the sky :D) and thus, we'll all be back at square 1.

[ronthecivil]

Source?

Which items on my list do you think I'm making up? Which items on my list are free or are not worsened by automobiles?

This is the thing with you engineers. If you can't assign a direct monetary value to it (health costs, time costs, noise pollution costs, etc...) it doesn't count. Too bad the real world doesn't work like that.

You stated that the taxes collected don't cover those costs. Well, show a balance sheet. Go ahead and make up a cost then.

BTW, feel free to add said noise pollution cost to the cost benefit analysis of say any bus route. Live next to a major bus route, they are noisy, from a very early time to quite a late time.

And like it or not, that is how the real world works. Get used to it.

[ronthecivil]

^ well, the money has to come from somewhere to just even maintain existing service. We've been warned that this would happen for the last 3 years, and we're now at the 11th hour of either going back to 1970 bus levels or improving transit for the betterment of our region.

I would expect that part of the taxpayer revolt would be noting that even the current services, which service a small percentage of the population, are already taking a giant chunk of taxes to subsidise them. Asking for more tends to get people irate. Especially when the people that would pay the most for all these tolls would be the same ones with the worst transit service, even with all that extra money! Doh!

[nitronuts]

EXACTLY. So if you upgrade said bridges, nobody minds if you slap a toll on them. You could even up it a little to provide some gravy for transit. But if it's a flat out cash grab, operation tax payer revolt will be full board, no matter how "right" it is.

Tolling existing roads has been done in cities like London, Singapore, and Stockholm. Was there backlash? Yes, and it worked like a miracle in drastically reducing car traffic and increasing transit ridership.

It needs to be done. Existing crossings in this region need to be tolled. Translink needs the revenue to provide competent transit service in the first place (or even for just maintaining existing service), and it can't raise enough revenues for those transit improvements without regional crossing tolls (which should be complemented with drastically improving transit service). It's quite a mind boggling problem.

Edited July 31, 2009 by nitronuts

[Common sense]

All of you yuppy anti-car blah blah hippies get your facts together before you start telling me "you better take transit then if you don't want to pay the costs"

I live in Po-Co and work down town. My options....

a-take hwy 1

b-take hwy 7

c-take west coast express

d-take bus to CTC station, transfer to lougheed take skytrain..

let's add the expenses....

fuel cost parking fees time

a - $5/day 11/day 0 2 hours (1 hour each way)

b - $5/day 11/day 0 2 hours (1 hour each way)

c - $1/day 4/day 12.50/day 3 hours (1.5 hours each way - specific train times)

d - $0/day 0/day 4.53/day 4 hours (2 hours each way - specific train/bus times)

now... a and b (driving) costs 16 per day and I waste 2 hours of my day commuting.

c - costs me 17.50 per day and takes 30 min longer

d - saves me 12 dollars per day, but takes twice as long...

so what is your time worth to you.... ?

i'm no high level executive but making $25/hour is where i see my time as being valued.

if i spent 4 hours in traffic that $100 that me or my company miss in earned business because i'm not working.

maybe for you $8 burger flippers you can waste away on the 97 b-line, you time isn't worth it.... mine is.

MY POINT, MAKE TRANSIT A VIABLE OPTION AND I WILL USE IT... YOU CONTINUE TO PUNISH DRIVERS WITH RIDICULOUS TOLLS, FEES, TAXES, SURCHARGES, PREMIUMS AND TAKE AWAY ROADS AND GIVE THEM TO HIPPY BIKE RIDERS. GIVE ME AN OPTION BETTER THAN DRIVING AND I'LL USE IT. UNTIL THEN, I'LL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GET IN MY OVERPRICED CAR, FILL IT WITH TAX AND LEVIED FUEL, BURN THAT FUEL OVER A GRIDLOCKED HWY, PAY MY OUTRAGEOUS PARKING FEE, AND BURN THAT FUEL ALL THE WAY HOME. UNLESS YOU WANT TO GIVE ME $50/day NOT TO DRIVE...........

Oh wow. Where to begin?

You live in Poco. There's the problem. How far away from Downtown is it? Around 31 km. How can Poco-Downtown direct transit be a viable option when it's that far away? Like you said, there's the WCE. Only $1.5 more per day, and you don't put mileage on your car too. Isn't that better than weaving in and out of traffic?

[The Analyst]

Tolling existing roads has been done in cities like London, Singapore, and Stockholm. Was there backlash? Yes, and it worked like a miracle in drastically reducing car traffic and increasing transit ridership.

It needs to be done. Existing crossings in this region need to be tolled. Translink needs the revenue to provide competent transit service in the first place (or even for just maintaining existing service), and it can't raise enough revenues for those transit improvements without regional crossing tolls (which should be complemented with drastically improving transit service). It's quite a mind boggling problem.

again, total disregard for the person like me who has no viable option but to drive. let's do a cash grab, from the drivers, and give it to the bus riders...

you want to give transit more use... give a free 2 zone pass to every registered car owner......

not the drivers, the owners of the vehicles.... make transit at least a reasonable option, some people will need to pay the 3 zone upgrade (like myself) and less traffic congestion.

[inane]

Find the alternative that'll get you from point A to B while taking up only twice as much time, while still making it out alive.

- buses? nope. they don't exist south of the Fraser.

- bikes? nope. that'll make you grow a superiority complex and think you're king of the road, and then you get ran over.

Perhaps the irony is that you say you appreciate the need for cars to be on the road (whether it be for commercial, private, or emergency use), and yet you're suggesting policies that'll restrict movement of them, to the point where there will be standstill and congestion. Sadly, buses and other forms of transit are susceptible to this congestion ('cept for Skytrain, cuz it's in the sky :D) and thus, we'll all be back at square 1.

I'm suggesting policies to get more people into alternative modes of transportation thus freeing up space of the road for people that NEED to drive.

It's not some devious/socialist plan, it's pretty straight forward stuff.

[nitronuts]

All of you yuppy anti-car blah blah hippies get your facts together before you start telling me "you better take transit then if you don't want to pay the costs"

I live in Po-Co and work down town. My options....

a-take hwy 1

b-take hwy 7

c-take west coast express

d-take bus to CTC station, transfer to lougheed take skytrain..

let's add the expenses....

fuel cost parking fees time

a - $5/day 11/day 0 2 hours (1 hour each way)

b - $5/day 11/day 0 2 hours (1 hour each way)

c - $1/day 4/day 12.50/day 3 hours (1.5 hours each way - specific train times)

d - $0/day 0/day 4.53/day 4 hours (2 hours each way - specific train/bus times)

now... a and b (driving) costs 16 per day and I waste 2 hours of my day commuting.

c - costs me 17.50 per day and takes 30 min longer

d - saves me 12 dollars per day, but takes twice as long...

so what is your time worth to you.... ?

i'm no high level executive but making $25/hour is where i see my time as being valued.

if i spent 4 hours in traffic that $100 that me or my company miss in earned business because i'm not working.

maybe for you $8 burger flippers you can waste away on the 97 b-line, you time isn't worth it.... mine is.

MY POINT, MAKE TRANSIT A VIABLE OPTION AND I WILL USE IT... YOU CONTINUE TO PUNISH DRIVERS WITH RIDICULOUS TOLLS, FEES, TAXES, SURCHARGES, PREMIUMS AND TAKE AWAY ROADS AND GIVE THEM TO HIPPY BIKE RIDERS. GIVE ME AN OPTION BETTER THAN DRIVING AND I'LL USE IT. UNTIL THEN, I'LL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GET IN MY OVERPRICED CAR, FILL IT WITH TAX AND LEVIED FUEL, BURN THAT FUEL OVER A GRIDLOCKED HWY, PAY MY OUTRAGEOUS PARKING FEE, AND BURN THAT FUEL ALL THE WAY HOME. UNLESS YOU WANT TO GIVE ME $50/day NOT TO DRIVE...........

Problem is it takes money to make money: we need money to build a viable and competent transit system. And really, this region started building transit far too late; we only started during the 1980's with Expo '86's inaugural SkyTrain line. Between the 1960's and 1980's, there has been a focus on expanding car use and a degradation of transit in the region. We're only catching up right now, trying to catch up from the last 40 years in transit investments we should've made.

I'll agree with you, transit in the Northeast sector is abysmal...slow and terribly infrequent. And one can't blame you for staying with the car. But once we've built ourselves a strong regional transit backbone that CONNECTS DESTINATIONS (THIS IS VITAL), we'll see transit as a real competent alternative to the car. Extend SkyTrain to UBC, extend SkyTrain to the Northeast sector/Coquitlam, and extend SkyTrain and build light rail in Surrey and the south of Fraser. Buy more buses, improve and up the frequency of routes, AND remove some bus stops that are too close together - impeding on the speed of the service. What some people in Translink and anti-SkyTrain folks don't get is how speed is vital in attaining ridership, not the number of stops the service connects with and the claimed convenience as a result.

[inane]

You stated that the taxes collected don't cover those costs. Well, show a balance sheet. Go ahead and make up a cost then.

BTW, feel free to add said noise pollution cost to the cost benefit analysis of say any bus route. Live next to a major bus route, they are noisy, from a very early time to quite a late time.

And like it or not, that is how the real world works. Get used to it.

I'm sorry, I don't have all those exact figures in front of me. I know in your mind that makes my entire argument baseless, so be it. Even nitro agrees with me on this one though

[The Analyst]

Oh wow. Where to begin?

You live in Poco. There's the problem. How far away from Downtown is it? Around 31 km. How can Poco-Downtown direct transit be a viable option when it's that far away? Like you said, there's the WCE. Only $1.5 more per day, and you don't put mileage on your car too. Isn't that better than weaving in and out of traffic?

so the problem is that i live far away.. you want to turn this into "affordable living downtown" and option GET REAL!!!!!

where i live now, digital tv, internet, heating, hot water (terasen), rent, parking for 2 vehicles.. total cost $900

equate that to downtown.

1200 for rent, 300 for utilities, 150 for 2 parking stalls

1650? or 900? hmmm that's a toughy....

the west coast express is ok, if you didn't have to stay late at work.

it runs west bound until 10am and runs east bound until 6.... otherwise HAVE FUN TAKING 3 CONNECTING BUSES HOME!!!!

i usually end up having someone drive from poco to vancouver to pick me up (much faster than taking the bus home)

[inane]

so the problem is that i live far away.. you want to turn this into "affordable living downtown" and option GET REAL!!!!!

where i live now, digital tv, internet, heating, hot water (terasen), rent, parking for 2 vehicles.. total cost $900

equate that to downtown.

1200 for rent, 300 for utilities, 150 for 2 parking stalls

1650? or 900? hmmm that's a toughy....

the west coast express is ok, if you didn't have to stay late at work.

it runs west bound until 10am and runs east bound until 6.... otherwise HAVE FUN TAKING 3 CONNECTING BUSES HOME!!!!

i usually end up having someone drive from poco to vancouver to pick me up (much faster than taking the bus home)

carpool?

[Common sense]

so the problem is that i live far away.. you want to turn this into "affordable living downtown" and option GET REAL!!!!!

where i live now, digital tv, internet, heating, hot water (terasen), rent, parking for 2 vehicles.. total cost $900

equate that to downtown.

1200 for rent, 300 for utilities, 150 for 2 parking stalls

1650? or 900? hmmm that's a toughy....

the west coast express is ok, if you didn't have to stay late at work.

it runs west bound until 10am and runs east bound until 6.... otherwise HAVE FUN TAKING 3 CONNECTING BUSES HOME!!!!

i usually end up having someone drive from poco to vancouver to pick me up (much faster than taking the bus home)

Plans for the WCE to extend its hours by adding trains to the fleet are underway. I think Translink's buying 7 more trains? Not too sure about that number, though.

I never said you living in PoCo is the problem and you should move into a $1650/mo. apartment in downtown. I said the fact that PoCo is 31km away from downtown makes it hard for any transit system to:

1.) provide quality service (get there in about the same time as driving) while;

2.) servicing enough people to break even.

It's a bad balance, but the WCE's the closest option there is for someone living in the NE sector.

[nitronuts]

so the problem is that i live far away.. you want to turn this into "affordable living downtown" and option GET REAL!!!!!

where i live now, digital tv, internet, heating, hot water (terasen), rent, parking for 2 vehicles.. total cost $900

equate that to downtown.

1200 for rent, 300 for utilities, 150 for 2 parking stalls

1650? or 900? hmmm that's a toughy....

the west coast express is ok, if you didn't have to stay late at work.

it runs west bound until 10am and runs east bound until 6.... otherwise HAVE FUN TAKING 3 CONNECTING BUSES HOME!!!!

i usually end up having someone drive from poco to vancouver to pick me up (much faster than taking the bus home)

The West Coast Express service can't be improved as train schedules are under contract with CP Rail as the WCE uses their tracks for $80-million a year. It's not as if Translink is refusing to improve the WCE, the service is an absolute success but current improvement is only limited to longer trains. The contract will be renegotiated in 2014, and hopefully we'll see some agreement for all-day bi-directional service.

[The Colt 45s]

It seems like the alternative for everything these days are to increase taxes, tolls, tariffs, and fees. I wish my pay cheque kept up with the rate of inflation, not to mention the increase in taxation. We have to come up with the money some how.

[nitronuts]

Plans for the WCE to extend its hours by adding trains to the fleet are underway. I think Translink's buying 7 more trains? Not too sure about that number, though.

I never said you living in PoCo is the problem and you should move into a $1650/mo. apartment in downtown. I said the fact that PoCo is 31km away from downtown makes it hard for any transit system to:

1.) provide quality service (get there in about the same time as driving) while;

2.) servicing enough people to break even.

It's a bad balance, but the WCE's the closest option there is for someone living in the NE sector.

It's 7-cars.

Agreed, transit can't work for everyone but a balance can be made by taking out the choice riders from the road. Transit usage with in the region is about 12%, increasing it to 25% would bring us to Toronto and Montreal standards.

[The Analyst]

don't get me wrong, in the opportunities i can, I take co-workers to and from work... my wife come with me when we work at relatively the same times.... so I do my best to contribute and I understand the need for improvements.

I just feel in my situation I've got no choice but to drive. Yet nothing is being done to help me (the evergreen live is potentially being scrapped) and your asking me to pay more and more each year for someone elses benefit.

There are hundreds of thousands of people living in north fraser and the fraser valley that don't work in their area. Yet we aren't receiving any help at all.... the golden ears bridge.... that's it, at least that is a step in the right direction and the toll is understandable.

solution?? 4 lane highway (2 each direction) that runs along the south end of the inlet (next to the west coast express tracks) that is a $3-5 toll for direct connection to the port at the north end of clark road.

I'd pay $10 daily to cut my daily commute from 2 hours to 45 min.....