The Official Transit Thread

[ahzdeen]

If there's an extension in the future to Port Coquitlam/Pitt Meadows, we can simply alternate trains at Coquitlam Centre like how we do now at Columbia and Bridgeport.

I can see Douglas being a station used a lot by the people in Westwood plateau. But it that were to happen, they would have to put in a decent park and ride there.

[ronthecivil]

Sir, just Google your question.

A lot of growth is going to happen in Coquitlam Centre in the future, it deserves two stations...it's not just for Douglas College, albeit there will be quite a bit of ridership from the college.

Coquitlam Station to Douglas College is roughly 1-km, which is the average spacing of most stations for our SkyTrain lines.

If there's an extension in the future to Port Coquitlam/Pitt Meadows, we can simply alternate trains at Coquitlam Centre like how we do now at Columbia and Bridgeport.

For it to deserve two stations IMO they would need to blow up coquitlam centre mall and replace it with a proper dense developement, and if they need all that parking put it underground. Of course, were that to happen, the local road connections would be improved so much (no need to go around) that you would no longer need the second station, especially with what would be the majority of the people being much closer than the developements north of the mall.

In the future, sure, you could split it, but it seems pointless to have a split to service one station. If you want it to simply do that little route build a little monorail or something that simple connects between that station and douglas, could even justify a half way station to service the mall (or ideally it's replacement communit) then. Putting skytrain to there is an overbuild.

And besides, I thought they were trying to save some money. Seems a no brainer to me. And as it turns out, there's already a parking lot right there where they could build a large park and ride facility (structure) which would be conveniently on the intersection of two main roads.

[nitronuts]

^

1) major expansion plans are being planned for coquitlam centre mall, eventually taking up most of the huge swaths of ground parking.

2) dozens and dozens and dozens of condo buildings are being planned for the area over the next 2 decades, it deserves two stations even if the t-line is only for one station at Douglas.

3) hardly overbuilt, think of the future (THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WILL SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!!! lol).

[Common sense]

@evergreen: ZOMG I SEE NO LRT!!!!!!

[jd22_]

I live in Poco and I have attended Douglas Coquitlam; the area is becoming incredibly dense. It is certainly more dense than any area outside of Surrey, Burnaby, and Vancouver/NV, with over a dozen skyscrapers going up just south of lafarge lake, and a large amount of townhouses popping up just north of David.

I absolutely hate this, but the Burke Mountain development is just a couple KM away and there is absolutely no proper infrastructure there to service the hundreds of homes. It's brutal. The Douglas College stop will at least help with this, though some bus would have to be run up and down coast meridian and in and out of Queenston, Kingston, etc etc etc.

[jd22_]

Also, ron, I don't recall seeing specs for the pitt river bridge being skytrain compatible. It wasn't a very expensive bridge as bridges go.

[ronthecivil]

^

1) major expansion plans are being planned for coquitlam centre mall, eventually taking up most of the huge swaths of ground parking.

2) dozens and dozens and dozens of condo buildings are being planned for the area over the next 2 decades, it deserves two stations even if the t-line is only for one station at Douglas.

3) hardly overbuilt, think of the future (THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WILL SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!!! lol).

Well, that whole area, even built out, could be accomidated with a single track stub to to between the two (and if you have a stub might as well make it two stations) in the future. This single track would not even need to be part of the actual line, it could simple be a monorail type connection. And even if you don't build it now, (or ever for that matter), it's hardly the end of the world for even the furtherst flug condos that existing right now to be a measly 1200m away. And most of those new condos I would bet would be even closer.

As well, to really serve the area well, there should be buses that funnel through the dense areas and then diffuse into the residential nodes up there. If you had say one bus every 30 mins (and say 15 mins peak) to what looks to me to be three nodes up in the hills, it would then end up having 10 min service (5 min peak) through the dense areas as they mesh through there. Or something to that effect, you get the idea. To me it strikes me as this nub to nowhere is more politically motivated by one municipalities city hall rather than sound transit decisions. You would think that one would have learned their lesson regarding how splitting a line can result in significant crowding on one section (Richmond) and under-utilisation on the other (airport), this stub line would be worse, much worse. If this was ever extended further east (and live my dream of killing the WCE, the Canucks got over it, so can we) this nubs uselessness would become even more pronounced. Not putting the nub in IS THINKING OF THE FUTURE!!!!

Never mind that this probably solves the budget problem right there. Minus one station and 1.5 km of track, that's gotta take a chunk outta the budget. I would be willing to bet it would further improve the B/C ratio (and hence the business case, although not the political case).

[ronthecivil]

Also, ron, I don't recall seeing specs for the pitt river bridge being skytrain compatible. It wasn't a very expensive bridge as bridges go.

Meh, build a bridge for the extension when that time comes then, not the end of the world. Skytrain bridge are cheaper than highway bridges anyways.

[ronthecivil]

I live in Poco and I have attended Douglas Coquitlam; the area is becoming incredibly dense. It is certainly more dense than any area outside of Surrey, Burnaby, and Vancouver/NV, with over a dozen skyscrapers going up just south of lafarge lake, and a large amount of townhouses popping up just north of David.

I absolutely hate this, but the Burke Mountain development is just a couple KM away and there is absolutely no proper infrastructure there to service the hundreds of homes. It's brutal. The Douglas College stop will at least help with this, though some bus would have to be run up and down coast meridian and in and out of Queenston, Kingston, etc etc etc.

By all means run those buses but if you have to run the buses anways why not run them one more km to the station at the WCE and future everygreen line. Or if you really want a stub just build it later.

Like I said, I bet this solves the budget shortfall right now.

[jd22_]

Meh, build a bridge for the extension when that time comes then, not the end of the world. Skytrain bridge are cheaper than highway bridges anyways.

True, but then you have ridiculously empty tracts of land and low density for km and km past the pitt river bridge. The only legitimate skytrain station out there would be at meadowtown. It's all farmland and warehouses for a few km east of the Pitt River.

That said, it's many, many years away from happening. But even if it did, it'll still take an hour or more to get downtown via skytrain from Maple Ridge.

[jd22_]

By all means run those buses but if you have to run the buses anways why not run them one more km to the station at the WCE and future everygreen line. Or if you really want a stub just build it later.

Like I said, I bet this solves the budget shortfall right now.

Pinetree community centre and high school are there as well, not to mention several hundred homes immediately west of Hoy Creek.

It's an area more deserving of a station than Sapperton or Lake City Way. Burnaby demanded LCW on the line, but it's very ill used. Pinetree/Douglas College station will get more users within a week than sapperton plus LCW does in a month. Building stubs later is more expensive, you know that. It's been pointed out a ton regarding the M line extension.

Oh, also, I don't know the full technical difficulties involved but building a loop/extra area to turn a skytrain around at Coquitlam Centre would require alot of extra land... I don't know if that's available.

Edited October 5, 2009 by jd22_

[ronthecivil]

Pinetree community centre and high school are there as well, not to mention several hundred homes immediately west of Hoy Creek.

It's an area more deserving of a station than Sapperton or Lake City Way. Burnaby demanded LCW on the line, but it's very ill used. Pinetree/Douglas College station will get more users within a week than sapperton plus LCW does in a month. Building stubs later is more expensive, you know that. It's been pointed out a ton regarding the M line extension.

Oh, also, I don't know the full technical difficulties involved but building a loop/extra area to turn a skytrain around at Coquitlam Centre would require alot of extra land... I don't know if that's available.

Regardless of how it's being done, any extensions would of course be way, waaaaaaay in the future. I could think of a dozen places to extend to before going even to POCO. Of course, that line of thinking would probably make one realise that going out to Douglas college should probably be a lower priority than many other things as well.

A community centre? A high school? Single family home? Jeepers, sure, improve the bus service, and build a park and ride (where there is conviently space and two feeder roads not to mention an exising bus loop) and up the bus service. If the buses are slow build HOV lanes for them on Pinetree. Run express buses down laughead during WCE off times from the end of the line to mission (or better yet, just do that and kill the WCE, although really should get the skytrain over the river before one does that).

Adding an extra station in the middle of existing track might be a bad idea. But extending track to put a station in the middle of nowhere, that's pretty expensive.

Save money by enhancing the existing transit hub and park and ride facility to increase their capacity to be in line with the additional capacity being provided by being a skytrain terminus in what is already and will continue to be an ideal location. Use some of the savings to build an elevated ped walkway that cuts through the parking area and right over the laughead to increase ped access to the place.

If this idea was implemented, which would work better in the long term anyways, was implemented now, it would solve a significant, if not all of, the budget shortfall that has been stalling the project for three years.

If everyone is so in love with what would eventually be a stub, then by all means, as things are redeveloped, [b]save the right of way, and perhaps think of a way of making a pedestrian/cycling trail out of it that could one day be topped off with a skytrain guideway.

[nitronuts]

Well, that whole area, even built out, could be accomidated with a single track stub to to between the two (and if you have a stub might as well make it two stations) in the future. This single track would not even need to be part of the actual line, it could simple be a monorail type connection. And even if you don't build it now, (or ever for that matter), it's hardly the end of the world for even the furtherst flug condos that existing right now to be a measly 1200m away. And most of those new condos I would bet would be even closer.

As well, to really serve the area well, there should be buses that funnel through the dense areas and then diffuse into the residential nodes up there. If you had say one bus every 30 mins (and say 15 mins peak) to what looks to me to be three nodes up in the hills, it would then end up having 10 min service (5 min peak) through the dense areas as they mesh through there. Or something to that effect, you get the idea. To me it strikes me as this nub to nowhere is more politically motivated by one municipalities city hall rather than sound transit decisions. You would think that one would have learned their lesson regarding how splitting a line can result in significant crowding on one section (Richmond) and under-utilisation on the other (airport), this stub line would be worse, much worse. If this was ever extended further east (and live my dream of killing the WCE, the Canucks got over it, so can we) this nubs uselessness would become even more pronounced. Not putting the nub in IS THINKING OF THE FUTURE!!!!

Never mind that this probably solves the budget problem right there. Minus one station and 1.5 km of track, that's gotta take a chunk outta the budget. I would be willing to bet it would further improve the B/C ratio (and hence the business case, although not the political case).

There are actually plans for two stations for that t-line to Douglas College. A future station is probably being planned for Lincoln.

1200-metres isn't "measley" away. That's quite a distance. It's almost like saying only Metrotown Station is needed, we could do without Patterson (and Patterson is 600-metres away from Metrotown Station so it's even worse....we could even use Royal Oak as an example). Coquitlam Centre Station's location is a long walk, more stations are simply needed. I'm rarely this blunt, but you have it quite wrong.

Note that the potential extension to Port Coquitlam/Pitt Meadows is only an option for the future, it's not dead set as a future extension. Recall how we spent $30-million on the Lougheed Station track switches anticipating Evergreen would be a future SkyTrain extension, yet it nearly became LRT. Unlike the LRT/Skytrain Evergreen proposal, a Port Coquitlam/Port Moody extension isn't even in the books. Dual-tracks to Douglas College will be needed, and the cost savings to have it single-tracked are quite minimal....maybe $30-million. And having a single-platform station only saves about $10-million.

If you want to axe the entire Coquitlam Centre to Douglas College section, you'll only be saving $100-million. And it's a pretty vital section, hardly useless nor a nub to nowhere. Last I checked, there are 20,000 students at Douglas College.

You would think that one would have learned their lesson regarding how splitting a line can result in significant crowding on one section (Richmond) and under-utilisation on the other (airport), this stub line would be worse, much worse.

Significant crowding on the Canada Line is due to the fact that:

1) They ordered only 20 trains and are required to keep 10% as spares. 18-trains are all they can use as noted in the contract. In other words, there are not enough trains....they should've ordered at least 25 trains - ideally, 30.

The existing "every other train goes to the other direction" configuration between Richmond and YVR is to maintain a maximum allowable frequency (we can't have a train every 25-minutes at YVR during the day). And even ridership at YVR is much higher than estimated.

Once we have more trains, we'll start to see the first two trains going to Richmond and the third train to YVR. Frequency will be drastically increased.

2) The trains are far too small, even though technically they are technically equivalent to a 4-car Mark I train. They also lack doors, there should be 4 doors per car rather than 3 given the technical capacity of each car.

You don't want single-tracking to Douglas College if a train ever breaks down. And secondly, you won't see capacity problems like what we're seeing on the Canada Line considering the Evergreen will have the potential of reaching twice the ultimate capacity of the Canada Line with longer trains (40-metre vs. 80 platforms today; 50-metre platforms versus 100-metre platforms future).

Edited October 6, 2009 by nitronuts

[ronthecivil]

There are actually plans for two stations for that t-line to Douglas College. A future station is probably being planned for Lincoln.

1200-metres isn't "measley" away. That's quite a distance. It's almost like saying only Metrotown Station is needed, we could do without Patterson (and Patterson is 600-metres away from Metrotown Station so it's even worse....we could even use Royal Oak as an example). Coquitlam Centre Station's location is a long walk, more stations are simply needed. I'm rarely this blunt, but you have it quite wrong.

Note that the potential extension to Port Coquitlam/Pitt Meadows is only an option for the future, it's not dead set as a future extension. Recall how we spent $30-million on the Lougheed Station track switches anticipating Evergreen would be a future SkyTrain extension, yet it nearly became LRT. Unlike the LRT/Skytrain Evergreen proposal, a Port Coquitlam/Port Moody extension isn't even in the books. Dual-tracks to Douglas College will be needed, and the cost savings to have it single-tracked are quite minimal....maybe $30-million. And having a single-platform station only saves about $10-million.

If you want to axe the entire Coquitlam Centre to Douglas College section, you'll only be saving $100-million. And it's a pretty vital section, hardly useless nor a nub to nowhere. Last I checked, there are 20,000 students at Douglas College.

You could have axed Patterson, it is way too close, but it's not that big a deal, as there was already a line going all the way from Burnaby to downtown, so it's not like they had to build extra track for it. Much like if they did build the station at Lincoln right now on the route to Douglas it would hardly be a giant problem budget wise.

And of course you wouldn't build the switching equipment, you could just add that to the end of the line which the time comes. Heck, you could just build the part out to douglas in the future if that's really the direction things went (call it phase three or whatever). However, unless a switch was put in right now, with the douglas portion, your almost making the decision to never expand further east, as it would be very hard to stage and very costly to put one in after. Not as bad as the single track section in Richmond, but almost.

Even if there are 20k studants at Douglas, I doubt they add enough ridership to warrant a sktrain line, most of the ridership would be going the other direction. Now building HOV lanes up Pinetree to get the buses through and service westwood plateau and north Poco via the David ave. extension would go a long way on it's own, never mind building a ped overpass that connected over laughead to solve the car conflict.

And even if it's only 100 million, that's a HEALTHY chunk of the budget shortfall right there. Let me ask you this, if it came down to it, would you rather they just built it out to coquitlam centre, made that a transit node, and got it done sooner rather than later, is it really worth it to risk getting nothing built?

And even if it's only 100 million, do you not think that money wouldn't be better spent getting the first dollars in the pot to getting Millenium extended the other direction, to at least as far as Cambie so it can connect in with the RAV line?

And either way, wouldn't many many of the transit connections, and the only logical place to build a massive park and ride, be at Coquitlam Centre station anways?

[nitronuts]

Significant crowding on the Canada Line is due to the fact that:

1) They ordered only 20 trains and are required to keep 10% as spares. 18-trains are all they can use as noted in the contract. In other words, there are not enough trains....they should've ordered at least 25 trains - ideally, 30.

The existing "every other train goes to the other direction" configuration between Richmond and YVR is to maintain a maximum allowable frequency (we can't have a train every 25-minutes at YVR during the day). And even ridership at YVR is much higher than estimated.

Once we have more trains, we'll start to see the first two trains going to Richmond and the third train to YVR. Frequency will be drastically increased.

2) The trains are far too small, even though technically they are technically equivalent to a 4-car Mark I train. They also lack doors, there should be 4 doors per car rather than 3 given the technical capacity of each car.

You don't want single-tracking to Douglas College if a train ever breaks down. And secondly, you won't see capacity problems like what we're seeing on the Canada Line considering the Evergreen will have the potential of reaching twice the ultimate capacity of the Canada Line with longer trains (40-metre vs. 80 platforms today; 50-metre platforms versus 100-metre platforms future).

[nitronuts]

You could have axed Patterson, it is way too close, but it's not that big a deal, as there was already a line going all the way from Burnaby to downtown, so it's not like they had to build extra track for it. Much like if they did build the station at Lincoln right now on the route to Douglas it would hardly be a giant problem budget wise.

And of course you wouldn't build the switching equipment, you could just add that to the end of the line which the time comes. Heck, you could just build the part out to douglas in the future if that's really the direction things went (call it phase three or whatever). However, unless a switch was put in right now, with the douglas portion, your almost making the decision to never expand further east, as it would be very hard to stage and very costly to put one in after. Not as bad as the single track section in Richmond, but almost.

Even if there are 20k studants at Douglas, I doubt they add enough ridership to warrant a sktrain line, most of the ridership would be going the other direction. Now building HOV lanes up Pinetree to get the buses through and service westwood plateau and north Poco via the David ave. extension would go a long way on it's own, never mind building a ped overpass that connected over laughead to solve the car conflict.

And even if it's only 100 million, that's a HEALTHY chunk of the budget shortfall right there. Let me ask you this, if it came down to it, would you rather they just built it out to coquitlam centre, made that a transit node, and got it done sooner rather than later, is it really worth it to risk getting nothing built?

And even if it's only 100 million, do you not think that money wouldn't be better spent getting the first dollars in the pot to getting Millenium extended the other direction, to at least as far as Cambie so it can connect in with the RAV line?

And either way, wouldn't many many of the transit connections, and the only logical place to build a massive park and ride, be at Coquitlam Centre station anways?

While I would choose Patterson as one of the stations to axe if I were in charge and had to axe stations, it's a necessary station to maintain the balance between SkyTrain being both a regional and local system....the problem with LRT is it only acts as a local system, and disregards the regional part.

A lot of growth is going to happen in Coquitlam and its city centre, the station is simply warranted. Period. Douglas College alone could probably add at least 5,000 daily riders to the system when it opens.

The line is only 11-kms long, and it'll have some of the largest station spacings as it's being designed with just 6 stations. Spacings are about 2-kms, compared to Expo/M-Line's ~1-km average spacings and the Canada Line's average is just below 1-km. You need more stations to make it a feasible line, to get the ridership you need so operational costs won't break the bank. Again, back to my point with the balance between a regional and local system. Rapid transit rail systems are meant to connect destinations, and that's vital to their success.

We'll see if they have plans to install the switch, though unlikely. There are similar plans in place to have a spur line down King George Highway in Surrey in the future as part of Expo Line extensions.

The line will get built. The mayors are voting at the end of this month, and they are favouring the $450-million tax plan to continue transit expansion plans. And even if that fails, they'll vote for the modest expansion plans at about $250-million in taxes which could include the Evergreen. And if all fails, a combination of plans could include the provincial government giving more money to fund the project. At this point, this is the province's new baby.

A Millennium Line extension won't be happening for awhile, so it's quite pointless to start saving now. And any extension would have to be to at least Arbutus.

Edited October 6, 2009 by nitronuts

[Common sense]

Significant crowding on the Canada Line is due to the fact that:

1) They ordered only 20 trains and are required to keep 10% as spares. 18-trains are all they can use as noted in the contract. In other words, there are not enough trains....they should've ordered at least 25 trains - ideally, 30.

The existing "every other train goes to the other direction" configuration between Richmond and YVR is to maintain a maximum allowable frequency (we can't have a train every 25-minutes at YVR during the day). And even ridership at YVR is much higher than estimated.

Once we have more trains, we'll start to see the first two trains going to Richmond and the third train to YVR. Frequency will be drastically increased.

2) The trains are far too small, even though technically they are technically equivalent to a 4-car Mark I train. They also lack doors, there should be 4 doors per car rather than 3 given the technical capacity of each car.

You don't want single-tracking to Douglas College if a train ever breaks down. And secondly, you won't see capacity problems like what we're seeing on the Canada Line considering the Evergreen will have the potential of reaching twice the ultimate capacity of the Canada Line with longer trains (40-metre vs. 80 platforms today; 50-metre platforms versus 100-metre platforms future).

Trains aren't small. Reconfigure the seats, have handles that drop from the ceiling, and you can easily fit 40 more people onto a train. Sure, keep he 3 doors and not the 4 that makes everything better, but at least people won't feel compelled to stop RIGHT AT THE EFFIN DOOR.

[nitronuts]

lol, apparently Translink has ordered an RFP for umbrella vending machines at SkyTrain stations, and they are to be battery powered because there's no AC plug.

Edited October 6, 2009 by nitronuts

[jd22_]

Sorry to correct you, Nitro, as I'm on your side here but Douglas has two campuses, and New West gets at least half of the students. Also, I last heard there were 14k douglas college students. However, DC is just a portion; the skyscraper density south of lafarge will add a couple thousand a day.

Also also, the problem with busses serving westwood plateau is that it's an F'ing rich area and everyone has their own vehicle. Nobody wants to take the bus there. The ONLY time a bus would get heavily utilized is during winter, when the SUV drivers realize they can't go anywhere and do anything with 4 season tires.

Also, very low density.

ALSO, YOU WILL GET ATTACKED BY BEARS EVERY DAY, CAUSE EVERYONE UP THERE IS A PIECE OF TRASH!

[inane]

Little bird told me 84th Ave will not go through.

Big roundabout at 88th?

hope so!