2022-23 End of Season Milestone Watch...

[Kevin Biestra]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:50 PM, IBatch said:

Huddy for sure deserves some looks now.   If Lowe gets in he should for sure. 

 

I think maybe their substantial careers as coaches / executives worked to get Lowe (and Bob Pulford) over the hump.  Both not that far off from a HOF player alone and neither all that far off from a HOF builder either.  Put it all together and they get voted in as a player once the bulk of their career as a builder is also over.

 

Pulford for example was voted into the Hall as a player in 1991.  He retired as a player in 1972 and basically retired as a coach after a good career there in 1987.  A few years later...inducted as a player.  I don't really have a problem combining the two either if they are both substantial accomplishments...if a guy deserves the Hall cumulatively may as well put him in as a player if that career was worthy or close to it.

 

But all three of Pulford, Duff and Lowe are mostly in for a lot of Cups and being a good player on those teams...but not even very close to the Glenn Anderson of the Oilers or the Clark Gillies or even John Tonelli of the Islanders.  I would say the Butch Goring of the Islanders...at best perhaps.

 

Pulford was a good player for sure but I would have him waiting behind a good list of guys who aren't in the Hall in terms of being a great player - Charlie Simmer, Dave Taylor, Rene Robert, Rick Martin, Pete Mahovlich, JC Tremblay, Tim Kerr, Brian Propp, Randy Carlyle, plus the goalies that come up every time and without even going into the 1,200 point type guys like Nicholls, Roenick, Turgeon etc.

 

Kevin Lowe was like Pulford.  Inducted as a player in 2020, twenty years after becoming Oilers GM and a long career as a hockey builder.

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I think maybe their substantial careers as coaches / executives worked to get Lowe (and Bob Pulford) over the hump.  Both not that far off from a HOF player alone and neither all that far off from a HOF builder either.  Put it all together and they get voted in as a player once the bulk of their career as a builder is also over.

 

Pulford for example was voted into the Hall as a player in 1991.  He retired as a player in 1972 and basically retired as a coach after a good career there in 1987.  A few years later...inducted as a player.  I don't really have a problem combining the two either if they are both substantial accomplishments...if a guy deserves the Hall cumulatively may as well put him in as a player if that career was worthy or close to it.

 

But all three of Pulford, Duff and Lowe are mostly in for a lot of Cups and being a good player on those teams...but not even very close to the Glenn Anderson of the Oilers or the Clark Gillies or even John Tonelli of the Islanders.  I would say the Butch Goring of the Islanders...at best perhaps.

 

Pulford was a good player for sure but I would have him waiting behind a good list of guys who aren't in the Hall in terms of being a great player - Charlie Simmer, Dave Taylor, Rene Robert, Rick Martin, Pete Mahovlich, JC Tremblay, Tim Kerr, Brian Propp, Randy Carlyle, plus the goalies that come up every time and without even going into the 1,200 point type guys like Nicholls, Roenick, Turgeon etc.

 

Kevin Lowe was like Pulford.  Inducted as a player in 2020, twenty years after becoming Oilers GM and a long career as a hockey builder.

Tonelli is a great example of a WHA player who ended up being a crucial piece in a dynasty later - and put up more points (rightly so, given his age).    Named the "best player in the planet" by the Russian coach after a tournament in the early 80's...Very under the radar guy that also deserves consideration.   A critical core piece.   Goring too.   One of the best two way players ever really (Tonelli).    It's worth noting It was Gillies and Trottier that played with Bossy.   Tonelli did his best Ryan Kesler impression for years.    Regular selke guy but also two time second all-star, pretty tough to do that back then.    Hart votes twice as well. 

 

Edit:  Reggie Leach is another guy who didn't quite play long enough and didn't get enough assists.   But he sure could score.   61 and over 50, good for one Richard, and come playoff time really hit the twine.   Conn Smythe too.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

18 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Tonelli is a great example of a WHA player who ended up being a crucial piece in a dynasty later - and put up more points (rightly so, given his age).    Named the "best player in the planet" by the Russian coach after a tournament in the early 80's...Very under the radar guy that also deserves consideration.   A critical core piece.   Goring too.   One of the best two way players ever really (Tonelli).    It's worth noting It was Gillies and Trottier that played with Bossy.   Tonelli did his best Ryan Kesler impression for years.    Regular selke guy but also two time second all-star, pretty tough to do that back then.    Hart votes twice as well. 

 

Yeah Tonelli is pretty much a 1000 point player if you include his WHA years.  Duff and Pulford are really somewhere more like in between Brent Sutter and Bob Nystrom in terms of the Islanders analogy if I were to really try to place them.  Which is nothing to sneeze at.  Brent Sutter was a 100 point player himself, which people forget, and had a Hart vote or two himself one year.  Brent and Brian especially were really legit players...a lot better than most people seem to think nowadays.

 

Darryl Sutter was actually a hell of a player too who had the Wayne Babych style early career derailment.  40 goals in his rookie year for Darryl and then just utterly destroyed by injuries year after year until he retired before age 30.  Who knows what he could have done with just normal luck.  Even as he was nearing the end he was an absolute beast in the 1985 playoffs.  12 goals and 19 points in 15 games.  That's Mike Bossy stuff.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

22 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Yeah Tonelli is pretty much a 1000 point player if you include his WHA years.  Duff and Pulford are really somewhere more like in between Brent Sutter and Bob Nystrom in terms of the Islanders analogy if I were to really try to place them.  Which is nothing to sneeze at.  Brent Sutter was a 100 point player himself, which people forget, and had a Hart vote or two himself one year.  Brent and Brian especially were really legit players...a lot better than most people seem to think nowadays.

 

Darryl Sutter was actually a hell of a player too who had the Wayne Babych style early career derailment.  40 goals in his rookie year for Darryl and then just utterly destroyed by injuries year after year until he retired before age 30.  Who knows what he could have done with just normal luck.  Even as he was nearing the end he was an absolute beast in the 1985 playoffs.  12 goals and 19 points in 15 games.  That's Mike Bossy stuff.

 

Really think Bob "Beast" McCrimmon should be in.   His plus minus is sick - and with advanced stats now available, he kills Lowe on virtually every category.   Except cups of course lol.   Glad defensive defenseman at least now are garnering more attention.    Langway of course ... Chara is a gimmie.     Beezer also destroys Cujo in every new fancy stat as well, and ahead of several HHOFers.    Won the Vezina and close a few times ... his goals saved above average - was sick.     Got to love those little guys too (Vernon, Broduer, Irbe)... a lot easier to drop down every shot and use body position then actually make a save and direct a rebound right to your defensemans stick.   That's part of the game Furh, Smith, Dryden, Parent and many others had in spades.   McLean was good at that too.   Keeping the puck in play by starting with possession from a shot, rather than swallowing it up for a whistle. 

 

Turgeon is another guy who not being in the HHOF is looking sillier with each passing year.   Also killed it with fancy stats ... Don't see much difference in Sundin and Turgeon.   Both weren't considered top tier stars, one though spent a lot of time in the center of the hockey universe.   22 less points in 50 plus less games ... And Turgeon played on some pretty mediocre teams he made a lot better.   Dale Hunter likely affected his numbers too.   Brutal cheap shot.   Crazy that a guy who scored that many points, isn't in the HHOF. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Really think Bob "Beast" McCrimmon should be in.   His plus minus is sick - and with advanced stats now available, he kills Lowe on virtually every category.   Except cups of course lol.   Glad defensive defenseman at least now are garnering more attention.    Langway of course ... Chara is a gimmie.     Beezer also destroys Cujo in every new fancy stat as well, and ahead of several HHOFers.    Won the Vezina and close a few times ... his goals saved above average - was sick.     Got to love those little guys too (Vernon, Broduer, Irbe)... a lot easier to drop down every shot and use body position then actually make a save and direct a rebound right to your defensemans stick.   That's part of the game Furh, Smith, Dryden, Parent and many others had in spades.   McLean was good at that too.   Keeping the puck in play by starting with possession from a shot, rather than swallowing it up for a whistle. 

 

Turgeon is another guy who not being in the HHOF is looking sillier with each passing year.   Also killed it with fancy stats ... Don't see much difference in Sundin and Turgeon.   Both weren't considered top tier stars, one though spent a lot of time in the center of the hockey universe.   22 less points in 50 plus games ... And Turgeon played on some pretty mediocre teams he made a lot better.   Dale Hunter likely affected his numbers too.   Brutal cheap shot.   Crazy that a guy who scored that many points, isn't in the HHOF. 

 

Yeah I've been on the Brad McCrimmon train for years but figured I was close to the only one.  Like I said before I consider him to be about a 105% version of Kevin Lowe...rock solid defensive D that was good for 40ish points (and had a one off Serge Savard style big year with 56) on teams that were good but had no Gretzky as a 1.25x multiplier for his points.  Those great 80s flyers teams were kind of like the 80s Canucks.  Neither had the big 120 point guy or even a 100 point guy but great depth of 65-95 point guys.  Flyers - Propp, Kerr, Poulin, Craven, Tocchet, Sinisalo, Zezel etc.  Canucks - Smyl, Sundstrom, Gradin, Pederson, Tanti, Fraser, Hlinka, Boldirev, Williams, Skriko etc.

[IBatch]

So McDavid ties Yzerman, one less goal, good for the 15th highest scoring season ever. 

 

EK.  101 points.   Not quite enough to edge Potvin and 72-73 Orr (63 games more goals), also good for 15th for a defenseman. 

 

EP...102 points.  Now up there with the best seasons ever by a Canuck. 

 

QHs  76...good for 89th all-time and also 27th just for assists...

 

EK adds to number of times top 11 in scoring.    With Orr, Potvin and Coffey.  

Edited April 14, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

14 minutes ago, IBatch said:

So McDavid ties Yzerman, one less goal, good for the 15th highest scoring season ever. 

 

EK.  101 points.   Not quite enough to edge Potvin and 72-73 Orr (63 games more goals), also good for 15th for a defenseman. 

 

EP...102 points.  Now up there with the best seasons ever by a Canuck. 

 

QHs  76...good for 89th all-time and also 27th just for assists...

 

EK adds to number of times top 11 in scoring.    With Orr, Potvin and Coffey.  

 

I think McDavid needed 155 for Yzerman but he did edge out Phil and "out in the cold on the steps outside the Hall of Fame" Bernie.  And one goal away from matching Ovechkin's career high (which is also Steve's career high).

 

Boy I didn't expect Quinn Hughes to close out the year with a scoring slump but he and Garland put a decent exclamation point on the season in Game 82.

 

Pettersson just barely hangs on to 10th place.

 

And Mitch Marner gets Dave Andreychuked.  99 points this year, 97 points last year.  Poor old Dave never had 100 points in a season but had 99 twice.

 

[IBatch]

30 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I think McDavid needed 155 for Yzerman but he did edge out Phil and "out in the cold on the steps outside the Hall of Fame" Bernie.  And one goal away from matching Ovechkin's career high (which is also Steve's career high).

 

Boy I didn't expect Quinn Hughes to close out the year with a scoring slump but he and Garland put a decent exclamation point on the season in Game 82.

 

Pettersson just barely hangs on to 10th place.

 

And Mitch Marner gets Dave Andreychuked.  99 points this year, 97 points last year.  Poor old Dave never had 100 points in a season but had 99 twice.

 

Thanks Biestra ... you are correct.    I think this might be McKinnon's first 100 plus point year too, got Dave'd once already.    Nice to see that many guys break 100...it feels like the last time this happened was 1993-1994.   

 

Edit:  Feels like the dead puck era is finally over.   What a grind. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by IBatch