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#31 Millerdraft

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

If he doesn't get top 9 min in the AHL, then he'd be better off in the ECHL getting top 6 min; but the CHL would be a bad call in every situation.


Yeah, I guess that's true. His size advantage over boys will create poor habits, I suppose. My only concern is throwing him into the AHL right away and destroying any offensive confidence he gained in the very small amount of time he spent in the Q and it's not as if he was completely dominating that league with only 9g in 31gp (17g in 46gp including the playoffs) which is like a 24g pace over 80 games (29g pace over 80 if you include playoffs).

My fear is not dissimilar to what happened with Shane Doan when he had two dominating seasons in Kamloops, skipped the AHL due to age, was prematurely rushed into the NHL and then lost all confidence as he floundered around for four seasons in a 4th line role. Somehow he found a way to climb out of the abyss of ruined confidence. On the other hand, in Grenier's case, he's only had 45gp in the Q but maybe it would be best to just start him out in the ECHL as a top-six and if he dominates the first ten games or so with the numbers to show for it, bump him up a level and put him in a top-9 role in Chicago?

I don't know but this guy appears to have HUGE potential yet the danger is that if it isn't developed properly it could be smashed rather quickly, no? Maybe it's just my own preference to play it safe in terms of development. After all, many a sniper have said the key to success is confidence and I'm hesitant to risk that critical aspect so early on. Put him in a good position to have personal success in order to breed more confidence and then give him a new challenge.
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#32 avelanch

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 01:52 PM

Yeah, I guess that's true. His size advantage over boys will create poor habits, I suppose. My only concern is throwing him into the AHL right away and destroying any offensive confidence he gained in the very small amount of time he spent in the Q and it's not as if he was completely dominating that league with only 9g in 31gp (17g in 46gp including the playoffs) which is like a 24g pace over 80 games (29g pace over 80 if you include playoffs).

My fear is not dissimilar to what happened with Shane Doan when he had two dominating seasons in Kamloops, skipped the AHL due to age, was prematurely rushed into the NHL and then lost all confidence as he floundered around for four seasons in a 4th line role. Somehow he found a way to climb out of the abyss of ruined confidence. On the other hand, in Grenier's case, he's only had 45gp in the Q but maybe it would be best to just start him out in the ECHL as a top-six and if he dominates the first ten games or so with the numbers to show for it, bump him up a level and put him in a top-9 role in Chicago?

I don't know but this guy appears to have HUGE potential yet the danger is that if it isn't developed properly it could be smashed rather quickly, no? Maybe it's just my own preference to play it safe in terms of development. After all, many a sniper have said the key to success is confidence and I'm hesitant to risk that critical aspect so early on. Put him in a good position to have personal success in order to breed more confidence and then give him a new challenge.

I guess that's just where we differ. I'm of the school of though that without a challenge the talent goes undeveloped. It true that he still has stuff to learn and challenges (from the offensive side of things) in the QMJHL, but the fact that he towers over everyone and is easily stronger than most would be a hindrance to him, moreso than the confidence would offset.

The biggest problem with Power forwards (and why they take the longest to develop of any forward) is that they need to get used to no longer being able to just out muscle everyone like they did in the CHL/University. Throwing him into the AHL/ECHL would speed up this portion of his development. the top line of the ECHL would clearly be better than the 4th of the AHL, but I'd like to see him as a 3rd liner in Chicago if at all possible, but then again, I'd like to see how he does in the prospect's tourney/pre-season before making any official call on where he should go (if he fails miserably, then off to Roy he goes).
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#33 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 02:16 PM

I'm sort of leaning toward Millerdraft's side on this one actually, as he hasn't even played all that much in the Q and would hate for him to lose any sort of confidence. Maybe he hasn't even had the opportunity to establish any bad habits of relying purely on his size to get by due to the fact that he played only 45 games in junior - he's just so new to that level of play. And yes, he wasn't completely dominant, having just over a point per game in the playoffs.

But it might also be a good option for him to play in the ECHL though with 1st line minutes, but the Mooseheads apparently are banking on him getting sent back as they acquired him at the QMJHL draft.
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#34 avelanch

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 02:22 PM

I'm sort of leaning toward Millerdraft's side on this one actually, as he hasn't even played all that much in the Q and would hate for him to lose any sort of confidence. Maybe he hasn't even had the opportunity to establish any bad habits of relying purely on his size to get by due to the fact that he played only 45 games in junior - he's just so new to that level of play. And yes, he wasn't completely dominant, having just over a point per game in the playoffs.

But it might also be a good option for him to play in the ECHL though with 1st line minutes, but the Mooseheads apparently are banking on him getting sent back as they acquired him at the QMJHL draft.

what the mooseheads are banking on has no impact/influence on the Canucks decision of where to send him after training camp though. that's their fault/problem if he doesn't rejoin them. I'm sure the Giants were hoping/banking on Connauton being sent back to them too (like many CDC board members were). If "Greener" hasn't had a chance to pick up bad habits yet, why send him back to a situation where he runs a high risk of picking them up just so we can try to break him of them a year later?
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#35 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 02:46 PM

what the mooseheads are banking on has no impact/influence on the Canucks decision of where to send him after training camp though. that's their fault/problem if he doesn't rejoin them. I'm sure the Giants were hoping/banking on Connauton being sent back to them too (like many CDC board members were). If "Greener" hasn't had a chance to pick up bad habits yet, why send him back to a situation where he runs a high risk of picking them up just so we can try to break him of them a year later?


I personally haven't seen him play, but if I use the highlight compilation of Grenier his goals all seem to be scored by skill and positioning alone, rather than powering through guys to the front of the net and knocking people over. I know those are just highlights. However I thought power forwards were supposed to be able to do that, so he might as well get practice doing that against easier competition, and establish a base level, if that's not part of his game already?

He also seems to be a pretty disciplined player, and if he doesn't play a particularly nasty or physical game then maybe it would be better for him to focus on scoring with his skill first anyway? Again the one thing I'm worried about here is his confidence, probably having just found it in the Q. But who are we to judge when nobody's seen him play anyway? How he does at camp in September will determine if he's ready to face the pros, playing against men while being effective.

Honestly though are there any comparables to his case? Must be really rare for a someone to emerge like he did so late, at such size too.
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#36 one night

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 03:33 PM

what the mooseheads are banking on has no impact/influence on the Canucks decision of where to send him after training camp though. that's their fault/problem if he doesn't rejoin them. I'm sure the Giants were hoping/banking on Connauton being sent back to them too (like many CDC board members were). If "Greener" hasn't had a chance to pick up bad habits yet, why send him back to a situation where he runs a high risk of picking them up just so we can try to break him of them a year later?



The only problem I have with this, who is the Coach in the ECHL that is coaching him? If it anyone like AV, the kid is better off in the Q. This scenerio goes the same for the AHL as we have no Coach in place. There are Coaches out there that are teachers of the game and there are Coaches out there that are win at all costs no matter what kids are ruined by that process. I think before we should place this kid we should wait and see whom the coach is going to be.
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#37 Dasein

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 05:58 PM

The only problem I have with this, who is the Coach in the ECHL that is coaching him? If it anyone like AV, the kid is better off in the Q. This scenerio goes the same for the AHL as we have no Coach in place. There are Coaches out there that are teachers of the game and there are Coaches out there that are win at all costs no matter what kids are ruined by that process. I think before we should place this kid we should wait and see whom the coach is going to be.

OMG you're right. We never should have trusted AV to develop the likes of Kesler, Bieksa, Edler, Raymond, Burrows and Hansen. These guys are ruined for life...
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#38 لني

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 09:16 PM

The only problem I have with this, who is the Coach in the ECHL that is coaching him? If it anyone like AV, the kid is better off in the Q. This scenerio goes the same for the AHL as we have no Coach in place. There are Coaches out there that are teachers of the game and there are Coaches out there that are win at all costs no matter what kids are ruined by that process. I think before we should place this kid we should wait and see whom the coach is going to be.

Good to see the AV hate has the ability to cross over into any topic/thread.

Maybe I can read up on the AV debate in the "Should Canada be in Libya" thread.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#39 one night

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 11:19 PM

Good to see the AV hate has the ability to cross over into any topic/thread.

Maybe I can read up on the AV debate in the "Should Canada be in Libya" thread.



This no hate AV, if you see his coaching differently, state your oppinion and debate.
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#40 one night

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 11:22 PM

OMG you're right. We never should have trusted AV to develop the likes of Kesler, Bieksa, Edler, Raymond, Burrows and Hansen. These guys are ruined for life...



OMG your stupid, he was down in Winnipeg when he had those players. What has he developed since he has come up to the NHL?
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#41 DeNiro

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 11:52 PM

OMG your stupid, he was down in Winnipeg when he had those players. What has he developed since he has come up to the NHL?

Chris Tanev?

Who else has he even had the opportunity to develop since coming to the Canucks? He can only develop prospects if he's given ones that are NHL ready...

Grabner would have become a great player for us, but GIllis decided to trade him for much needed defence instead.
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#42 one night

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 06:59 AM

Chris Tanev?

Who else has he even had the opportunity to develop since coming to the Canucks? He can only develop prospects if he's given ones that are NHL ready...

Grabner would have become a great player for us, but GIllis decided to trade him for much needed defence instead.



MG discusses the prospects with AV before trades happen (for his opinion). Yes I agree about the upgrade on defence, but MG must have egg on his face the way AV handled Ballard, as MG would have asked AV for his opinion on Ballard before pulling the trigger on that deal. I also don't really consider the development of Tanev, as AV was desparate on defence with all the injuries. It will be interesting what he is going to do with Tanev this year. I say Tanev will be playing in the AHL.
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#43 Millerdraft

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 11:55 AM

The biggest problem with Power forwards (and why they take the longest to develop of any forward) is that they need to get used to no longer being able to just out muscle everyone like they did in the CHL/University. Throwing him into the AHL/ECHL would speed up this portion of his development. the top line of the ECHL would clearly be better than the 4th of the AHL, but I'd like to see him as a 3rd liner in Chicago if at all possible, but then again, I'd like to see how he does in the prospect's tourney/pre-season before making any official call on where he should go (if he fails miserably, then off to Roy he goes).


Well, if he does go to Chicago, I'd like to see an Archibald-Schroeder-Grenier line. Mark Mancari would be better for Schroeder's development though, since he's an AHL vet, so maybe swap him in instead if Mancari gets cut after preseason.

If Hodgson makes the Canucks out of camp:

Sweatt-Ebbett-Haydar
Rodin-Schroeder-Mancari
Archibald-Schneider-Grenier
Volpatti-Anthony-Doell

If Hodgson doesn't make the Canucks out of camp:

Sweatt-Hodgson-Haydar
Rodin-Ebbet-Grenier
Archibald-Schroeder-Mancari
Anthony-Doell-Schneider
Volpatti

As it stands, Chicago has Hodgson, Ebbett, Schroeder, Doell, Schneider & Anthony as potential centres with Schroeder, Schneider & Anthony all C/W (although the jury is still out on Schroeder's ability to play wing, imo, but if we can find a Gaustad to play C for our Gerbe maybe he can play wing). Gerbe played with Gaustad and, not surprisingly, late in the season also with Mancari.

Edit: Brian Boyle would be a perfect centre if we want Schroeder on the wing...

Edited by Millerdraft, 06 July 2011 - 01:06 PM.

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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#44 RO8!!

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 01:26 PM

OMG your stupid, he was down in Winnipeg when he had those players. What has he developed since he has come up to the NHL?


Seems to me you just proved his point, aren't all of those players playing for him now in the NHL? Would that not mean he has followed their development process the whole way(ie. through both the AHL and the NHL) and now they are solid players. You could argue he isn't great coaching offensive players I guess, as it seems the only guys he develops create offense out of their defense like Kesler, but that he hasn't developed anyone since he came to the NHL is a little off the mark.
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#45 Shadow Assassin

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 08:38 AM

Well, if he does go to Chicago, I'd like to see an Archibald-Schroeder-Grenier line. Mark Mancari would be better for Schroeder's development though, since he's an AHL vet, so maybe swap him in instead if Mancari gets cut after preseason.

If Hodgson makes the Canucks out of camp:

Sweatt-Ebbett-Haydar
Rodin-Schroeder-Mancari
Archibald-Schneider-Grenier
Volpatti-Anthony-Doell

If Hodgson doesn't make the Canucks out of camp:

Sweatt-Hodgson-Haydar
Rodin-Ebbet-Grenier
Archibald-Schroeder-Mancari
Anthony-Doell-Schneider
Volpatti

As it stands, Chicago has Hodgson, Ebbett, Schroeder, Doell, Schneider & Anthony as potential centres with Schroeder, Schneider & Anthony all C/W (although the jury is still out on Schroeder's ability to play wing, imo, but if we can find a Gaustad to play C for our Gerbe maybe he can play wing). Gerbe played with Gaustad and, not surprisingly, late in the season also with Mancari.

Edit: Brian Boyle would be a perfect centre if we want Schroeder on the wing...


Just a quick question about the top line-up... Is Grenier old enough to play in the AHL after being in the CHL last year? Is he in his overage year (20-21 years old) in Quebec should he be returned?

Edited by Shadow Assassin, 07 July 2011 - 08:39 AM.

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#46 avelanch

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 08:48 AM

Just a quick question about the top line-up... Is Grenier old enough to play in the AHL after being in the CHL last year? Is he in his overage year (20-21 years old) in Quebec should he be returned?

He's eligible to play in the AHL next season, as he turns 20 on sept 5th. If he goes back to the mooseheads he'd be in his overage season.
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#47 clutesi

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 12:47 PM

Little Cliff Ronning played with Momesso and Sandlak who were both huge and it worked like a charm.
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#48 BureisBest

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 08:52 AM

Grenier is the prototypical late bloomer. He was definitely a wildcard in this draft and I think many teams had their eye on him and the Canucks bit early to secure the player they want. Nothing wrong with going for a low risk/high reward player in the 3rd round. I was surprised by the pick and did not like it at first, but after further thought I believe it was a calculated risk on a player with natural abilities who according to Patrick Roy is very coachable and trusted in key situations. Some players slip through the cracks...and Grenier was just found by the Remparts. Now who knows how great he can be. As far as where he plays next year, I don't mind any spot. Q, ECHL, AHL, NHL. Wherever his game warrants is where he will be suiting up. He has a lot of growing to do still and will be in the pros next year if not this one.
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#49 avelanch

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 01:26 PM

he's got mad hops!
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#50 22sedins33

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 01:33 PM

he's got mad hops!
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That's an understatement... holy jeez :blink:
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#51 One one two

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 05:21 PM

I'm now going to refer to him as "Hops Greener".

Edited by One one two, 10 July 2011 - 05:21 PM.

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#52 canucklehead44

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 05:49 PM

I think the ECHL should be better utilized as a developmental league to get second tier prospects big minutes against fully developed players.

Powerforwards often play overage years in junior. But the problem is they can use their size much more to their advantage than in the AHL. Once they make it pro they usually get stuck in a 4th line AHL role and are forced to play their way up to a top 6 spot. Problem is a lot of these guys aren't snipers and when the can't dominate physically, the chances of them putting up points with other 4th liners is slim.

Powerforwards are best when they play are with highly skilled players. They hit, create space, and go to the net. Players like Grabner shoot shoot shoot, creating chances in front. A big guy with hands can really feed off those chances and score 20-30 goals by just fighting their way to loose pucks.

Best place for Grenier would be top line in the ECHL. Even if he is the 7th best forward on the team I think players who are young and drafted should get ample opportunity to succeed in scoring roles in lower leagues. Time in all sorts of roles is also great, even if a player like Grenier rarely kills penalties or does shootouts in the NHL.

Is it fair? No. But if I am running an NHL team I would want my 21 year old powerforward on the top line scoring 20 goals over a 29 year old career minor leaguer scoring 25-30 goals. It isn't really fair, but it makes sense from a developmental standpoint.

The Salmon Kings had only one Canucks prospect on the team (Taylor Ellington).

Edited by canucklehead44, 10 July 2011 - 05:53 PM.

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#53 chickenman92

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:44 AM

I think he ends up back in jr. I love the pick and think he'll be a pretty good player but he might have the skinnyest upper body at the camp. I'm not sure how he'll fair against men right now. Let him hit the gym and put up huge numbers playing 20 min a night in halifax. Next season see if he's ready for the 3rd/2nd line and if not send him to chicago to play top 6 min.


I think gillis may have stolen a good one.
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#54 avelanch

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:58 AM

I think the ECHL should be better utilized as a developmental league to get second tier prospects big minutes against fully developed players.

Powerforwards often play overage years in junior. But the problem is they can use their size much more to their advantage than in the AHL. Once they make it pro they usually get stuck in a 4th line AHL role and are forced to play their way up to a top 6 spot. Problem is a lot of these guys aren't snipers and when the can't dominate physically, the chances of them putting up points with other 4th liners is slim.

Powerforwards are best when they play are with highly skilled players. They hit, create space, and go to the net. Players like Grabner shoot shoot shoot, creating chances in front. A big guy with hands can really feed off those chances and score 20-30 goals by just fighting their way to loose pucks.

Best place for Grenier would be top line in the ECHL. Even if he is the 7th best forward on the team I think players who are young and drafted should get ample opportunity to succeed in scoring roles in lower leagues. Time in all sorts of roles is also great, even if a player like Grenier rarely kills penalties or does shootouts in the NHL.

Is it fair? No. But if I am running an NHL team I would want my 21 year old powerforward on the top line scoring 20 goals over a 29 year old career minor leaguer scoring 25-30 goals. It isn't really fair, but it makes sense from a developmental standpoint.

The Salmon Kings had only one Canucks prospect on the team (Taylor Ellington).

I'd agree in Grenier's case. if he's not top 9 in the wolves I'd like to see him on the top line in the ECHL, moreso than him having an overage year in the Q and risk him picking up bad habits.
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#55 Dasein

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 03:56 PM

Grigorenko, the #1 ranked center for 2012 draft, is going to Grenier's team Quebec Remparts, so he might get the chance to play with one of the top 3 picks in next year's draft if he stays in the QMJHL.

Grigorenko is also a power forward at 6'3" so might be a good fit with Grenier if he gets to play with him. Grigorenko would create plenty of chances in front of the net for Grenier to clean up, or set Grenier up for good opportunities. That is, if Grenier gets to play with Grigorenko.
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#56 BureisBest

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 04:41 PM

Grigorenko, the #1 ranked center for 2012 draft, is going to Grenier's team Quebec Remparts, so he might get the chance to play with one of the top 3 picks in next year's draft if he stays in the QMJHL.

Grigorenko is also a power forward at 6'3" so might be a good fit with Grenier if he gets to play with him. Grigorenko would create plenty of chances in front of the net for Grenier to clean up, or set Grenier up for good opportunities. That is, if Grenier gets to play with Grigorenko.


Grenier is property of Halifax Mooseheads now and if he is back in Q will not be playing with Grigorenko if Mikhail decides to come to Q.
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#57 Dasein

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:14 PM

Grenier is property of Halifax Mooseheads now and if he is back in Q will not be playing with Grigorenko if Mikhail decides to come to Q.

Wow that sucks. Does Halifax have any legit players?
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#58 BureisBest

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:28 PM

Wow that sucks. Does Halifax have any legit players?


They have one very good player, Martin Frk. He will be a high draft pick this coming year. Two other good players they have are Luca Ciampini and Andrew Ryan, both expected to be decent draft picks this year. Another draft pick of ours Sawyer Hannay is on the team too. Maybe Grenier can continue to grow next year and help them get some more wins. He should get big minutes with some good young players if he is playing there.
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#59 one night

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:43 PM

[quote name='RO8!!' timestamp='1309984013' post='9864735']
Seems to me you just proved his point, aren't all of those players playing for him now in the NHL? Would that not mean he has followed their development process the whole way(ie. through both the AHL and the NHL) and now they are solid players. You could argue he isn't great coaching offensive players I guess, as it seems the only guys he develops create offense out of their defense like Kesler, but that he hasn't developed anyone since he came to the NHL is a little off the mark.
[/quote)


All I am saying is that since AV has coached the canucks he has not played 1st year players with the exception of Tanev which was due to injuries. For instance, why do you play Bolduc in the CUP Final in lieu of Hodgson?
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#60 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 04:37 PM

Well, looks like stud-in-the-making Nathan MacKinnon has been traded to Halifax, so together with Frk and Grigorenko Grenier should have some real talent to work with and put up big points. Look for him to dominate offensively next year. Lots of pure skill right there. Then Hannay can step in if goons try to rough them up. Posted Image
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