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The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality


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#91 Stefan

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:32 PM

Why not?

Man chose to disobey - man chose to "do it my way"...

Anyways - this isn't the God Thread - this thread is about The Bible and homosexuality - and how the Bible isn't against it.

Can you just stop? It's embarassing.
  • Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
  • Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
  • 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  • Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Your lies are as transparent as the bible is disgusting.

Edited by Stefan, 08 July 2012 - 04:34 PM.

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#92 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:33 PM

Well, not necessarily. The idea that "our creator" is letting us figure it out on our own, doesn't have to imply that he formerly did not.

I would separate creator from gods...as, well imo "gods" were aliens.

Sure, there is no hard proof...but there sure are a lot of pieces that can be pieced together to form that belief. I know it's not a popular idea, but it answers a lot of questions.


I think the Egyptians deserve more credit then that.

Theres no reason for me to think they were not capable of the impressive feats of engineering we see today. Im pretty sure projects like the pyramids only required knowledge of mathematics, masonry, astronomy and animal domestication. The only real stumbling block is that you would need a massive workforce in the tens of thousands to pull it off.

Bear in mind humans were experts at astronomy and mathematics; ancient monuments around the world based on human observation are startlingly accurate. At around 200 BC there was a Greek scientist who measured the circumference of the Earth, and he was off by something like 2 percent. The method he used was actually quite simple. You dont need superior intellect or technology for any of this kind of stuff.

Edited by Red Light Racicot, 08 July 2012 - 04:34 PM.

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#93 Drybone

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 05:05 PM

. I appreciate peoples passion on the issue as a whole but I would like to read more about how people feel about the homosexual issue (as I think it was the original posters intent) if at all possible.
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#94 gurn

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 05:28 PM

I'll never forget a story a few years back of a mudslide that wiped out a church full of Christians. Many men. women and children died.
Why would their loving god allow that to happen?


Because he/she/it has a strange sense of humour?
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#95 Stefan

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:25 PM

Why not?

Man chose to disobey - man chose to "do it my way"...

Anyways - this isn't the God Thread - this thread is about The Bible and homosexuality - and how the Bible isn't against it.

So man has free will, but he's supposed to follow god's will?
I don't get it. Where's the free will?
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#96 Armada

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:32 PM

50,000?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human


Umm okay? This is relevant in what way?

I'll never forget a story a few years back of a mudslide that wiped out a church full of Christians. Many men. women and children died.
Why would their loving god allow that to happen?


Because he/she/it has a strange sense of humour?


You're not allowed to ask these questions it stumps them.

But I have always wondered the same thing.

Edited by Armada, 08 July 2012 - 06:33 PM.

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#97 Navyblue

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:36 PM

Umm okay? This is relevant in what way?


Weren't you suggesting "god" leaving humans to fend for themselves was like leaving a five year old to fend for themselves?

I was pointing out that we've been around in this species for 50,000 years.
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#98 Armada

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:38 PM

Weren't you suggesting "god" leaving humans to fend for themselves was like leaving a five year old to fend for themselves?

I was pointing out that we've been around in this species for 50,000 years.


No I said "Why would a god let a 5 year olds parents be killed and then make that kid orphaned and unloved"

That's such a cruel thing to do for a "creator of people"
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#99 Heretic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:50 PM

Can you just stop? It's embarassing.

  • Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
  • Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
  • 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
  • Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Your lies are as transparent as the bible is disgusting.


Obviously, you didn't watch the video....pity.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#100 Heretic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:51 PM

So man has free will, but he's supposed to follow god's will?
I don't get it. Where's the free will?

Wrong.

God has a will.

Man has a will.

Man did not follow God's will = stop blaming God for all the wrongs in the world.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#101 Heretic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:53 PM

No I said "Why would a god let a 5 year olds parents be killed and then make that kid orphaned and unloved"

That's such a cruel thing to do for a "creator of people"


Why would man allow people to kill each other and make that kid orphaned and unloved?

What a cruel thing for man to do to each other.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#102 Armada

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:00 PM

Why would man allow people to kill each other and make that kid orphaned and unloved?

What a cruel thing for man to do to each other.


Why would a god allow a man to kill another man.

I certainly wouldn't, if he has the power to kill certain innocent people in the bible why can't he rid of all the bad people. Makes absolutely no sense?
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#103 Drybone

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:14 PM

It is my opinion that this entire thread has been derailed into a troll fest over whether you believe in God or not.
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#104 G.K. Chesterton

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:15 PM

Not religious, but doesn't the Bible say that it's acceptible to own slaves?


Read Dr. Paul Copan's Is God A Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God. I am currently reading it and it is an excellent book that deals with questions concerning slavery and some of the Mosaic laws.


Obviously, you didn't watch the video....pity.


Yes, I didn't watch it either. I too would prefer an (enlarged) summary of the video's contents.

Heretic, because I have not watched the video (nor do I have the time to at this point) can you answer this question for me, because it seems like the obviously crucial one. Is Matthew Vines saying that is is acceptable within Christianity to be a practicing homosexual (i.e. engage in sexual relations with someone of the same sex) or merely to struggle with same-sex attraction while remaining a celibate Christian? If it is the latter, fair enough, I agree. It has been said that Henri Nouwen, one of the most beloved Christian writers of the last century, struggled with homosexual attraction but he remained celibate all his life. Close same-sex companionship is compatible with Christianity (see David and Jonathan) but this is Platonic love.

If it is the former, I fear Vines' is still wrong. He says that Christians are free of the "old law". But what does he mean by that? There are three types of Old Testament law: civil, ceremonial and moral. The civil law applies to government and because we are to "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's" then we are to practice the laws mandated by the government. Christians are certainly free of the ceremonial law (no more animal sacrifices). But the moral law we are not free from - we do not toss out the Ten Commandments because they are part of the "old law". Likewise, verses that prohibit child sacrifice, homosexuality, etc...still apply.

Again, I have not watched the video, but I have problems with this quote of yours:

That is, God's will is for everyone to be with someone - and if you believe in God, then you wouldn't want to go against God's will would you?


I would agree with you that we are supposed to be social, after all, the Trinity itself is a triune community who love and give joy to one another. Likewise, we find comfort and encouragement in a fellowship of believers. But does God say we are each to have an intimate relationship with someone? I would suggest not (1 Corinthians 7:7-9).
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“Unbelief is as much of a choice as belief is. What makes it in many ways more appealing is that whereas to believe in something requires some measure of understanding and effort, not to believe doesn't require much of anything at all.” - Frederick Buechner

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#105 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:21 PM

Read Dr. Paul Copan's Is God A Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God. I am currently reading it and it is an excellent book that deals with questions concerning slavery and some of the Mosaic laws.




Yes, I didn't watch it either. I too would prefer an (enlarged) summary of the video's contents.

Heretic, because I have not watched the video (nor do I have the time to at this point) can you answer this question for me, because it seems like the obviously crucial one. Is Matthew Vines saying that is is acceptable within Christianity to be a practicing homosexual (i.e. engage in sexual relations with someone of the same sex) or merely to struggle with same-sex attraction while remaining a celibate Christian? If it is the latter, fair enough, I agree. It has been said that Henri Nouwen, one of the most beloved Christian writers of the last century, struggled with homosexual attraction but he remained celibate all his life. Close same-sex companionship is compatible with Christianity (see David and Jonathan) but this is Platonic love.

If it is the former, I fear Vines' is still wrong. He says that Christians are free of the "old law". But what does he mean by that? There are three types of Old Testament law: civil, ceremonial and moral. The civil law applies to government and because we are to "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's" then we are to practice the laws mandated by the government. Christians are certainly free of the ceremonial law (no more animal sacrifices). But the moral law we are not free from - we do not toss out the Ten Commandments because they are part of the "old law". Likewise, verses that prohibit child sacrifice, homosexuality, etc...still apply.

Again, I have not watched the video, but I have problems with this quote of yours:



I would agree with you that we are supposed to be social, after all, the Trinity itself is a triune community who love and give joy to one another. Likewise, we find comfort and encouragement in a fellowship of believers. But does God say we are each to have an intimate relationship with someone? I would suggest not (1 Corinthians 7:7-9).


Yep, that's what he's saying.
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#106 Heretic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:50 PM

Why would a god allow a man to kill another man.

I certainly wouldn't, if he has the power to kill certain innocent people in the bible why can't he rid of all the bad people. Makes absolutely no sense?


What makes no sense is this insipid line of questioning.
No one is innocent.

Because man wants to.

The real question is - why would a man want to kill another?
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#107 Heretic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:51 PM

It is my opinion that this entire thread has been derailed into a troll fest over whether you believe in God or not.


Plus 1.

This was not my goal.
This is NOT God Thread 2.
What I find hilarious - is that it is those that don't believe in God that want to go on and on and on about Him.
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#108 Heretic

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:55 PM

Read Dr. Paul Copan's Is God A Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God. I am currently reading it and it is an excellent book that deals with questions concerning slavery and some of the Mosaic laws.




Yes, I didn't watch it either. I too would prefer an (enlarged) summary of the video's contents.

Heretic, because I have not watched the video (nor do I have the time to at this point) can you answer this question for me, because it seems like the obviously crucial one. Is Matthew Vines saying that is is acceptable within Christianity to be a practicing homosexual (i.e. engage in sexual relations with someone of the same sex) or merely to struggle with same-sex attraction while remaining a celibate Christian? If it is the latter, fair enough, I agree. It has been said that Henri Nouwen, one of the most beloved Christian writers of the last century, struggled with homosexual attraction but he remained celibate all his life. Close same-sex companionship is compatible with Christianity (see David and Jonathan) but this is Platonic love.

If it is the former, I fear Vines' is still wrong. He says that Christians are free of the "old law". But what does he mean by that? There are three types of Old Testament law: civil, ceremonial and moral. The civil law applies to government and because we are to "render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's" then we are to practice the laws mandated by the government. Christians are certainly free of the ceremonial law (no more animal sacrifices). But the moral law we are not free from - we do not toss out the Ten Commandments because they are part of the "old law". Likewise, verses that prohibit child sacrifice, homosexuality, etc...still apply.

Again, I have not watched the video, but I have problems with this quote of yours:



I would agree with you that we are supposed to be social, after all, the Trinity itself is a triune community who love and give joy to one another. Likewise, we find comfort and encouragement in a fellowship of believers. But does God say we are each to have an intimate relationship with someone? I would suggest not (1 Corinthians 7:7-9).


Yes, his interpretation of the Bible is that homosexuality is not dis-proved of in the Bible.

And yes, I agree with him.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#109 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:56 PM

So what about Mathew 5:17?
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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#110 Drybone

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:57 PM

Yes, his interpretation of the Bible is that homosexuality is not dis-proved of in the Bible.

And yes, I agree with him.


Agreed. I for one have searched high and low and cannot find where Jesus comments on it at all.
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#111 Armada

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:00 PM

For anyone who hates gays... This is pretty much your depiction of them.

Edit: Due to some people being sensitive to this video, you have to realize that even though this video was unintentionally funny and ridiculed by the internet it is a very serious depiction of what some people use the bible to show gays as evil twisted people.


Edited by Armada, 08 July 2012 - 11:48 PM.

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#112 DarthNinja

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:00 PM

Why would man allow people to kill each other and make that kid orphaned and unloved?

What a cruel thing for man to do to each other.


With all due respect, that doesn't really answer the question.
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#113 Drybone

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:02 PM

So what about Mathew 5:17?


This is about slave to passions as opposed to being a slave to God . Its not about sexual orientation.
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#114 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:45 PM

For anyone who hates gays... This is pretty much your depiction of them.
*content removed*


And this ^^^ is the sort of post that makes any respectful debate or discussion of this topic pretty much impossible on this board. :rolleyes:

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 08 July 2012 - 09:46 PM.

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#115 Jägermeister

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:00 PM

And this ^^^ is the sort of post that makes any respectful debate or discussion of this topic pretty much impossible on this board. :rolleyes:


Its a true statement though.
Just because the video is obscure, doesn't make its point any less valid.
Those people in the video think the exact same as what is written in the Bible, that homosexuality is a sickness, and those with it should be put to death.
So you can sit there and think about how immature that video is, but don't ignore the fact that it sadly does relate to the topic at hand, and that there are still people in the world that think that way.
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#116 Armada

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:02 PM

And this ^^^ is the sort of post that makes any respectful debate or discussion of this topic pretty much impossible on this board. :rolleyes:


What do you mean BB?

That isn't humor or made up.. Its actually true. This is what some Ugandan's believe so they can get gays to be executed... Just because it was mocked and used as humor through the internet doesn't mean its not a valid video, it truly makes me sick how these people think gays act like this.

Also if you read the rest of the thread you'd realize I was having a mature discussion, so don't jump the gun, it seems to be a continuing theme with you, too quick to judge before reading into the thread.

So my eyes roll at you. :rolleyes:


What makes no sense is this insipid line of questioning.
No one is innocent.

Because man wants to.

The real question is - why would a man want to kill another?


But who created man..? Apparently God did?

So the REAL question is why would god allow man to kill another man? If God allows men to kill other innocent men then what kind of God is this? Some man who likes messed up humor? I don't see any logic..?

I respect people's beliefs I just want to understand why a "Creator" would allow this.

Edited by Armada, 08 July 2012 - 11:09 PM.

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#117 DarthNinja

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:07 PM

No I said "Why would a god let a 5 year olds parents be killed and then make that kid orphaned and unloved"

That's such a cruel thing to do for a "creator of people"


First of all, how do we know that child would be 'orphaned and unloved' (obvious emphasis on the unloved)? What if that child's biological parents were going to subject that child to decades of abuse and torment, for example? How do you know that orphan's adopting parents would not be the most loving and caring of parents? We can speculate all day long.

All we are capable of doing is observing and commenting on that which is apparent from the surface and often things on the surface can be deceiving and often we may not even really know anything about the surface as well. In reality we have little or no knowledge of the situations and circumstances of people and even when we think we do, we don't. In reality, we have no idea even of what our best friends, or fathers or mothers or brothers do behind closed doors when nobody else is around.

"Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not." (Qur'an translation 3:66)

"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much." (Qur'an translation 42:30)

"Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself." (Qur'an translation 4:79)

So unless an individual is 'all-seeing' and 'all-hearing' in reality they have no knowledge about the affairs of other people in the world.

Furthermore, from the perspective of one who believes in the Hereafter, life in this world is a short, temporary life and if supposed to be a test and it is a life that could end at any time. Death is the only guarantee in life so one should live life in righteousness, knowing we could go at anytime and knowing that this life consists of tests.

"And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to the patient." (Qur'an translation 2:155)

"Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you?" (Qur'an translation 2:214)

"When Our Torment reached them, why then did they not believe with humility? But their hearts became hardened, and Satan made fair seeming to them that which they used to do." (Qur'an translation 6:43)

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) stated (the meaning which is):

‘Worshipping at times of tribulation and confusion is like migrating to join me.'

and

“There is nothing that befalls a believer, not even a thorn that pricks him, but Allah will record one good deed for him and will remove one bad deed from him."

This is the Islamic perspective anyways. In a sense, we are hearing some say that people should not be judgmental toward others and so would the same then not be a strict precept when it comes to mankind towards the Creator of all that exists?

"He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned." (Qur'an translation 21:23)

Edited by DarthNinja_S19Blade, 08 July 2012 - 11:09 PM.

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"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

rsz_theylive.jpg 11477626583_2368927097.jpg  7649118508_ce3e8a74a1_o.jpg

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#118 Armada

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:13 PM

First of all, how do we know that child would be 'orphaned and unloved' (obvious emphasis on the unloved)? What if that child's biological parents were going to subject that child to decades of abuse and torment, for example? How do you know that orphan's adopting parents would not be the most loving and caring of parents? We can speculate all day long.

All we are capable of doing is observing and commenting on that which is apparent from the surface and often things on the surface can be deceiving and often we may not even really know anything about the surface as well. In reality we have little or no knowledge of the situations and circumstances of people and even when we think we do, we don't. In reality, we have no idea even of what our best friends, or fathers or mothers or brothers do behind closed doors when nobody else is around.

"Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not." (Qur'an translation 3:66)

"And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much." (Qur'an translation 42:30)

"Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself." (Qur'an translation 4:79)

So unless an individual is 'all-seeing' and 'all-hearing' in reality they have no knowledge about the affairs of other people in the world.

Furthermore, from the perspective of one who believes in the Hereafter, life in this world is a short, temporary life and if supposed to be a test and it is a life that could end at any time. Death is the only guarantee in life so one should live life in righteousness, knowing we could go at anytime and knowing that this life consists of tests.

"And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to the patient." (Qur'an translation 2:155)

"Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you?" (Qur'an translation 2:214)

"When Our Torment reached them, why then did they not believe with humility? But their hearts became hardened, and Satan made fair seeming to them that which they used to do." (Qur'an translation 6:43)

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) stated (the meaning which is):

‘Worshipping at times of tribulation and confusion is like migrating to join me.'

and

“There is nothing that befalls a believer, not even a thorn that pricks him, but Allah will record one good deed for him and will remove one bad deed from him."

This is the Islamic perspective anyways. In a sense, we are hearing some say that people should not be judgmental toward others and so would the same then not be a strict precept when it comes to mankind towards the Creator of all that exists?

"He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned." (Qur'an translation 21:23)


Doesn't answer my question, I'm being pretty vague about it sure but lets take all the negatives..

Why would a god let people become sick (Cancer, aids), be brutally killed (Genocides, murder, torture), allow disasters (Earthquakes, floods, etc..) and I can list many more...

I don't know what I'm missing but for a god, who people praise, why does he allow his own people to suffer.
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#119 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:14 PM

Also if you read the rest of the thread you'd realize I was having a mature discussion, so don't jump the gun, it seems to be a continuing theme with you, too quick to judge before reading into the thread.


Sadly, I HAVE read the entire thread. And it's a repeat of the 28 Gay Debate/Religion threads that came before it and the 28 Gay Debate/Religion threads that will probably come after it. Posting that sort of garbage here doesn't serve any purpose at all and only appears to promote even more stupidity in anti-gay sentiment.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 08 July 2012 - 11:17 PM.

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Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#120 Machine Gun Kelly

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:20 PM

Anyone that hates gay people should make a list of 5 reasons why.
There are hundreds of other things/People that actually deserve hate.
Hating people because of their sexual orientation is like hating someone because of their eyecolor.

Honestly, you homophobes remind me of the racists back in the 50's, with their "Color mixing is wrong" its history all over again except this time its "Homosexuality is a sin" :rolleyes: I roll my eyes and laugh at these people. I pity them.

Edited by DMND, 08 July 2012 - 11:20 PM.

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