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The Ethics of Eating Non-Human Animals


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#301 Pistachios

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

Your way of thinking will never win over enough people to make the meat industry shrink enough to not benefit from economies of scale.


Here's hoping that isn't the case.

In what respect? The non human aspect.... You see, animals don't have any morals whatsoever. Since you see humans as animals you should be happy I have any moral period.


And neither do many humans e.g infants, the severly cognitively impaired, comatose persons, etc. These individuals don't have morals. But they're human too. So there isn't a clear dividing line between all humans and non human animals. So whatever grounds you think there are for clearly differentiating the two (and whether this is a ethically relevant criterion), you're going to run into problems.

I doubt animals or nature in general missed any of the 50 million or so people that died in and around WW2


What does this have to do with anything?

It could be argument that a massive depopulation of people would be a good thing.


Via the holocaust? Wow....

Ethical arguments are relevant only in the perspective of those that frame them and are entirely different than natural laws. To compare and ethical argument to an natural law is a false analogy.

Re-read what I posted it because you're not understanding my point.

Your right. It doesn't matter how many people subscribe to what is ethical regarding the treatment of animals. It depends on the person and the society. Given that some societies would have no problem eating you and me while others would feel it's wrong to kill the rats eating the grain and all would have plenty of reasons for their position.


Ok, why does it depend on the person or the society? Back it up
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#302 ronthecivil

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:04 PM

^ This isn't a law case I don't need to back up my beliefs or my culture. This is a multicultural country. If eating meat is my culture than you have no right to question it.

I don't need to go into a in depth discussion as to why every culture believes the way it does. Suffice to say they do. If you want to know more research it yourself.

I understand your arguments I just think they are false.
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#303 aeromotacanucks

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

Hmmm...will there be another thread like this (minus the "Non-")???


the ethics of drinking "Non-Alcoholic drinks", the ethics of having sex with "Non-hot girls", the ethics of driving a "Non-Automatic Car", the ethics of eating a "Non-tasty cake/pie/candy", the ethics of being a "Non-Nerd jerk", the ethics of being a "Non-Normal People"...

Edited by aeromotacanucks, 23 November 2012 - 05:09 PM.

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#304 Salmonberries

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:41 PM

Digging into a delicious, nutritious, (and non-sentient) turnip as we speak!
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#305 Salmonberries

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:01 PM

Some holiday dinners in the vegan lifestyle.

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#306 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 08:13 PM

Some holiday dinners in the vegan lifestyle.

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I wonder how many non human animals died to create the plastic bags those were packaged in?


Damnit now I want brussels sprouts.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 23 November 2012 - 08:22 PM.

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#307 GoaltenderInterference

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:36 PM

I wonder how many non human animals died to create the plastic bags those were packaged in?


Damnit now I want brussels sprouts.


What about the poor non-human animals that get caught in farm machines when it's time to harvest? :(
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#308 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:06 AM

What about the poor non-human animals that get caught in farm machines when it's time to harvest? :(


Yup...the vegan lifestyle choice is the same as choosing the mass murder of non human animals.
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#309 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

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It's almost Christmas!

Fun Fact:
Over 5 Million delicious, delicious turkeys are killed each year around the holidays!

I only regret not being able to eat them all!

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#310 Salmonberries

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

I just hope no one is planning to eat a jive turkey. That is a line I personally would not cross.

Reckon they`re some mighty good eatin` though.

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#311 ronthecivil

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:06 AM

Some holiday dinners in the vegan lifestyle.

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What holiday? Can't possibly be Christmas or Thanksgiving. It's way past Diwali

And are you sure that's food? I might not recognize the food from Diwali but at least I know it would look and be delicious.

Am I missing a holiday that has crappy food? It would make sense that it not be as popular as the more well known ones this time of year and their food.
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#312 Pistachios

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

I don't need to back up my beliefs or my culture.


Burden of proof


This is a multicultural country. If eating meat is my culture than you have no right to question it.


Again, you're begging the question. That's poor critical thinking.



I don't need to go into a in depth discussion as to why every culture believes the way it does. Suffice to say they do. If you want to know more research it yourself.


I didn't ask for a descriptive explanation. I asked for a normative justification. You're the one mamking the positive claim so you're the one who has to back up that talk.

I understand your arguments I just think they are false.


You mean invalid or unsound. Premises are true or false.

You're just talking out your ass though because you havn't provided any reasonable arguments why the arguments I present are implausible.

Edited by SILLY GOOSE, 27 November 2012 - 01:01 PM.

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#313 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

You're just talking out your ass though because you havn't provided any reasonable arguments why the arguments I present are implausible.


I can't stop laughing at this! Especially that last part!
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#314 Common sense

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

You're just talking out your ass though because you havn't provided any reasonable arguments why the arguments I present are implausible.


Really!?
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#315 Pistachios

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:32 PM

I can't stop laughing at this! Especially that last part!


This applies equally to you as well. Laughing it up doesn't show the arguments I presented are irrational. High school mockery isn't intelligent debate.

Edited by SILLY GOOSE, 27 November 2012 - 02:33 PM.

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#316 Pistachios

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:37 PM

Really!?


Yes. Unless you can show otherwise.
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#317 D-Money

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:47 PM

I find it truly hilarious to see someone questioning the abilities of others to avoid logical fallacies, debate intelligently, etc. in one post...and in another post whip out something like this:

Via the holocaust? Wow....


At the risk of sounding like high school mockery..."never go full retard".
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#318 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:50 PM

This applies equally to you as well. Laughing it up doesn't show the arguments I presented are irrational. High school mockery isn't intelligent debate.


I gave up intelligent debate with you before I even began because debating with someone who believes he's 'right all the time end of story' is an exercise in futility.
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#319 ronthecivil

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:59 PM

Burden of proof

Again, you're begging the question. That's poor critical thinking.


I didn't ask for a descriptive explanation. I asked for a normative justification. You're the one mamking the positive claim so you're the one who has to back up that talk.

You mean invalid or unsound. Premises are true or false.

You're just talking out your ass though because you havn't provided any reasonable arguments why the arguments I present are implausible


Proof - The Canadian constitution. Multiculturalism is enshrined in federal law.

In my culture, eating meat is part of many traditions such as Christmas, Thanksgiving, Sunday dinner, wing night, taco tuesday, etc. It is up to me what my culture is though it happens to be the same of many other Canadians. If I couldn't eat smoke salmon I would have to give up my Island heritage as well.

For you to attack my culture is insensitive. If you don't like my culture too bad. If it doesn't match the philosophic standards of a silly goose I could care less.

Unless of course your objective it to be like a Barenstein Bear Jedi and are trying to do a massive reverse mind trick and get everyone hungry for a hamburger. Then you should be commended for doing an awesome job but I would never think a silly goose could ever be that clever. Ergo their real use of being pressed into Foie Gras.
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#320 Pistachios

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

I find it truly hilarious to see someone questioning the abilities of others to avoid logical fallacies, debate intelligently, etc. in one post...and in another post whip out something like this:



At the risk of sounding like high school mockery..."never go full retard".



You're forgetting the fact that I'm not the one who said that. Think more carefully next time.


I gave up intelligent debate with you before I even began because debating with someone who believes he's 'right all the time end of story' is an exercise in futility.


Far from it. A few issues have been raised e.g. painless killing that I agreed I am unclear about.

Besides, if you want to show something I've said is wrong then you have to provide reasons to believe such. If you can't, then don't cry about it.
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#321 ronthecivil

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

I didn't ask for a descriptive explanation. I asked for a normative justification. You're the one mamking the positive claim so you're the one who has to back up that talk


Why do people have the customs and traditions they have? They just do. It is not me to question why. If they aren't harming me no reason to go around harming them.

To question the logical basis of every human activity is an exercise in futility. Well, unless your goal is to try to encourage people to stick to their traditions more than ever. But only a silly goose would try something like that.
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#322 Pistachios

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:07 PM

Proof - The Canadian constitution. Multiculturalism is enshrined in federal law.


Again, I asked you for normative justification about meta ethical cultural relativism. The Canadian Constitution doesn't justify that.

In my culture, eating meat is part of many traditions such as Christmas, Thanksgiving, Sunday dinner, wing night, taco tuesday, etc. It is up to me what my culture is though it happens to be the same of many other Canadians. If I couldn't eat smoke salmon I would have to give up my Island heritage as well.


For you to attack my culture is insensitive. If you don't like my culture too bad. If it doesn't match the philosophic standards of a silly goose I could care less.


In the US, the slave trade was a long standing tradition. Non conformists obviously met fierce resistence to changing that practice. Not all traditions are morally permissable.
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#323 Pistachios

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:11 PM

Why do people have the customs and traditions they have? They just do. It is not me to question why. If they aren't harming me no reason to go around harming them.


This is a cop out pure & simple. It is in our interests to question customs and traditions if they are unfair, cruel, etc. That's why fighting for same sex rights e.g. same sex marriage is important.

To question the logical basis of every human activity is an exercise in futility. Well, unless your goal is to try to encourage people to stick to their traditions more than ever. But only a silly goose would try something like that.


Who said every activity? We are just talking about the treatment of non human animals here. You're just trying to distract the point at issue. That's a red herring.
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#324 vavoom

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:17 PM

LoL at this thread, Sillygoose is trying to engage in a moral philosophy debate, everybody else is interpreting it as a challenge to their own practices.

If my philosophy classes weren't a decade ago, I'd probably be able to put up a good arguement against Sillygoose on the morality issue. However, I concede that from his philosophical logic, it is hard to justify the consumption of most animals as moral.

However, I would point out that if you take Sillygoose's arguement to other aspects of life, most interactions between us and animals are not moral. Draft animals, riding horses, harvesting furs/leather etc...

I would rather question whether the utility we enjoy in consuming animals can justify the pain and suffering of these animals. Keeping in mind that the evolution of our species and the rise of our intellegence is largely attributed to the consumption of meat, specifically cooked meat.

Quite honestly, I don't give a ... about the morality of my meat consumption, no more than a lion would feel sorry for a delicious antelope baby. If I did, I would argue that my personal enjoyment would justify the death of the animal. If you feel morally wrong in consuming meat, then you're just not enjoying it enough! Something a good steak and a side of bacon will fix.

Edited by hockeyville88, 27 November 2012 - 09:30 PM.

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#325 D-Money

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

DP

Edited by D-Money, 27 November 2012 - 03:48 PM.

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#326 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

Besides, if you want to show something I've said is wrong then you have to provide reasons to believe such. If you can't, then don't cry about it.


I'm not crying, remember? I'm having a laugh.
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#327 ronthecivil

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

Again, I asked you for normative justification about meta ethical cultural relativism. The Canadian Constitution doesn't justify that


English please.

In the US, the slave trade was a long standing tradition. Non conformists obviously met fierce resistence to changing that practice. Not all traditions are morally permissable


Well, the slave trade does hurt your fellow man. It's not like eating a hamburger.

Obviously not every tradition is morally permissable in every other tradition. Whey do you think they are so keen on shooting each other in the middle east? Various cultures there feel each is superior and look down at the others as being immoral.
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#328 D-Money

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:47 PM

You're forgetting the fact that I'm not the one who said that.  Think more carefully next time.


You're completely missing the point. Ron was making a good counterpoint, and you tried to discredit it because it referenced the holocaust (gasp!).

You pretend that your reasoning is perfectly sound and logical, but you repeatedly attempt to appeal to base emotions (you wouldn't eat your dog!). You claim others are resorting to high school mockery, and then resort to petty, childish insults (talking out of your a**). And then to top it all off, you try to edumacate all us poor, unenlightened folk about the logical fallacies you learned last week in your freshman philosophy course.

Reading your posts is like watching Glenn Beck. But he's actually more tolerable, because I know that he's getting paid to play that part, whereas your motivations are much less transparent.
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#329 ronthecivil

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

This is a cop out pure & simple. It is in our interests to question customs and traditions if they are unfair, cruel, etc. That's why fighting for same sex rights e.g. same sex marriage is important.


Who said every activity? We are just talking about the treatment of non human animals here. You're just trying to distract the point at issue. That's a red herring.


Marriage is a cruel unfair tradition. Why should someone have different tax rules because they shack up with someone? Wholly putting yourself in the people's bedrooms on a massive scale! Of course trying to convince people otherwise (even if giving the same tax breaks to someone with a stay at home spouse doing their cooking and cleaning as a single parent trying to raise a child is grossly unfair and massively un-progressive) has about as much chance as a silly goose convincing us to give up meat. Jargon and a repetition of "non-human animals" as if it's going to make me think that the cow on the farm should be though of in the same light as holocaust victims shows that the source has a perverse view of morality and as such has no standing on having a rational moral conversation with.
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#330 Common sense

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

Yes. Unless you can show otherwise.


Sure; I'll start with the original post.
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