Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo

Israel takes out top Hamas commander after missiles launched from Gaza


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
527 replies to this topic

#481 لني

لني

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,310 posts
  • Joined: 14-July 08

Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:55 PM

Mohd Mursy has just given himself widespread power by neutering the judiciary.

No protests are kicking up of this.


Could make things interesting.
Sent from my iPhone Canucks App

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#482 Tearloch7

Tearloch7

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,219 posts
  • Joined: 15-July 10

Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:01 PM

Mohd Mursy has just given himself widespread power by neutering the judiciary.

No protests are kicking up of this.


Could make things interesting.


The new Mubarak? .. the West and Israel will be fine with this as long as he is "their" dictator, and keeps the peace treaty in place .. Americans will probably raise aid if he will be their lap-dog .. **woof**

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#483 لني

لني

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,310 posts
  • Joined: 14-July 08

Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:11 PM

The new Mubarak? .. the West and Israel will be fine with this as long as he is "their" dictator, and keeps the peace treaty in place .. Americans will probably raise aid if he will be their lap-dog .. **woof**


Nah. Just a continuation of the "strong-man" culture in the region.

Partly why i never shared the enthusiasm that some had for the revolution but more importantly the election of the MB.
Sent from my iPhone Canucks App

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#484 Mainly Mattias

Mainly Mattias

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,507 posts
  • Joined: 01-February 06

Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:18 PM

those who have adopted pro-palestinian views seem to assume that the argument is anti-palestinian.
it is anti-hamas and anti-terrorism. apples and oranges, people.

too many little groups with different perspectives, morals and goals to lump them into 2 groups: palestinian and israeli.
“Your journey has molded you for your greater good, and it was exactly what it needed to be. Don't think you've lost time. There is no short-cutting to life. It took each and every situation you have encountered to bring you to the now. And now is right on time.” ― Asha Tyson

#485 ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,090 posts
  • Joined: 13-June 07

Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

Any guesses or speculation as to who stands to make the greatest gain from this "incident"? .. there is some very delicate "diplomacy" being played out here .. we live in historic times .. often it is so easy to get wrapped up in the minutiae, and miss the broad strokes history uses when true change takes place ..

When combined with climate changes, this earth and its societies are undergoing very strenuous tests of of collective "will" .. it is happening sooner than I, for one, thought ..


Morsi and his EMB government make a short-term gain, by using their diplomatic access to HAMAS they give themselves greater legitimacy both regionally and with the US. However it's at at the expense of the major long-term disadvantage of tying themselves much more closely to HAMAS. That could have big repercussions down the road if HAMAS turns back to a more radical stance, or sides with Iran in the event hostilities break out, or otherwise makes Egypt responsible for some heinous action of theirs.

Israel itself doesn't really gain except by demonstrating the effectiveness of Iron Dome. Likud however stands to gain big-time if this leads to electoral victory, which most expect it will because they took almost no damage and dished out a ton of it on Gaza. It also eases the bad feelings between Netanyahu and the Americans after he intervened in their election.

HAMAS benefits short-term, because the bombardment stopped. They benefit medium-term because the cease-fire shows they have leverage vis-a-vis Israel, not just militarily but diplomatically, this deal really improves their standing with everyone. They benefit long-term from closer relations with Iran and especially Egypt, which will likely relax border security, weakening the Gaza blockade. However they lose out big-time though in the actual conflict, from loss of infrastructure and the death of an important figure in al-Jabari.

Iran benefits a little bit, showing they have a proxy down south in Gaza as well as up north in Lebanon that can hit Israel relatively hard. That puts the screws on and makes Israel nervous with respect to the possibility of hostilities breaking out. America benefits by coming in with their involvement at exactly the right time. Nobody is really upset at the way America intervened, which is rare. FATAH, Abbas, and the West Bank palestinians are the ones who really lose out of all of this, as they were irrelevent, completely sidelined. This whole thing really reinforces the division between the West Bank and Gaza, they have some Taylor Swift going on there, or some NHL/NHLPA if you prefer.

Ceterum censeo Chicaginem delendam esse


#486 Coda

Coda

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,175 posts
  • Joined: 11-December 03

Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:12 PM

Of course it is totally the Palestinians fault for their current plight, despite the benevolence of the all-giving Israeli government .. get yer head out of yer arse! .. it's clouding yer vision .. :picard:


Gaza has only to stop attacking Israel for the violence to cease. Evidence #1: The West Bank. Evidence #2: Yesterday's ceasefire.

The challenge stands: please show me any "hot" conflict now or any time in history where two countries have been exchanging rocket and artillery fire and one country does the following:

1. Processes and sends huge amounts of food and other humanitarian aid to the point that the opposing population has an obesity problem.
2. Provides free medical aid and medical personnel.
3. Phones enemy commanders so their families can evacuate before their houses are destroyed.
4. Calls off airstrikes when civilians are seen nearby.
5. Drops leaflets telling civilians which areas to evacuate in advance of a ground invasion.


You can not provide an example of another country that has done this because one doesn't exist. And yet par for the course: the Israelis are compared to Nazis, as we've seen many times throughout this thread.

In the other corner we have Hamas, government of Gaza:

1. Directly supports and advocates for the targeting of civilians, by rockets, suicide bombers, and other means.
2. Openly calls for the total annihilation of Israel.
3. Indoctrinates Palestinian children from infancy to hate Jews and become Martyrs in the act of killing Jews and destroying Israel.
4. Denies the holocaust happened.
5. Rewrites history in children's textbooks.
5. Steals humanitarian aid destined for its people.
6. Operates weaponry from schools and mosques
7. Uses civilians as human shields.
8. etc., etc., etc.

In my opinion, things will only get worse until Hamas has been totally eradicated.




Basically, the Anti-Israeli stance seems to consist of the following:

1. The Jews of Israel stole Arab land-they are therefore in the wrong! (ignoring that the founding of Israel was not at all that simple or one sided)
2. Any force used by Israel on any Palestinians for any reason is tyranny: any good things done for the Palestinians are ignored.
3. Anything done by any Palestinians is some form of freedom fighting initially provoked by the Israelis.

Edited by Coda, 22 November 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#487 لني

لني

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,310 posts
  • Joined: 14-July 08

Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:18 PM

Morsi and his EMB government make a short-term gain, by using their diplomatic access to HAMAS they give themselves greater legitimacy both regionally and with the US. However it's at at the expense of the major long-term disadvantage of tying themselves much more closely to HAMAS. That could have big repercussions down the road if HAMAS turns back to a more radical stance, or sides with Iran in the event hostilities break out, or otherwise makes Egypt responsible for some heinous action of theirs.

Israel itself doesn't really gain except by demonstrating the effectiveness of Iron Dome. Likud however stands to gain big-time if this leads to electoral victory, which most expect it will because they took almost no damage and dished out a ton of it on Gaza. It also eases the bad feelings between Netanyahu and the Americans after he intervened in their election.

HAMAS benefits short-term, because the bombardment stopped. They benefit medium-term because the cease-fire shows they have leverage vis-a-vis Israel, not just militarily but diplomatically, this deal really improves their standing with everyone. They benefit long-term from closer relations with Iran and especially Egypt, which will likely relax border security, weakening the Gaza blockade. However they lose out big-time though in the actual conflict, from loss of infrastructure and the death of an important figure in al-Jabari.

Iran benefits a little bit, showing they have a proxy down south in Gaza as well as up north in Lebanon that can hit Israel relatively hard. That puts the screws on and makes Israel nervous with respect to the possibility of hostilities breaking out. America benefits by coming in with their involvement at exactly the right time. Nobody is really upset at the way America intervened, which is rare. FATAH, Abbas, and the West Bank palestinians are the ones who really lose out of all of this, as they were irrelevent, completely sidelined. This whole thing really reinforces the division between the West Bank and Gaza, they have some Taylor Swift going on there, or some NHL/NHLPA if you prefer.


Netenyahu was pretty much booked to win prior to this violence.

Most commentators speculated he had more to lose than gain.
Sent from my iPhone Canucks App

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#488 Special Ed

Special Ed

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,664 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:37 PM

Gaza has only to stop attacking Israel for the violence to cease. Evidence #1: The West Bank. Evidence #2: Yesterday's ceasefire.

The challenge stands: please show me any "hot" conflict now or any time in history where two countries have been exchanging rocket and artillery fire and one country does the following:

1. Processes and sends huge amounts of food and other humanitarian aid to the point that the opposing population has an obesity problem.
2. Provides free medical aid and medical personnel.
3. Phones enemy commanders so their families can evacuate before their houses are destroyed.
4. Calls off airstrikes when civilians are seen nearby.
5. Drops leaflets telling civilians which areas to evacuate in advance of a ground invasion.


You can not provide an example of another country that has done this because one doesn't exist. And yet par for the course: the Israelis are compared to Nazis, as we've seen many times throughout this thread.

In the other corner we have Hamas, government of Gaza:

1. Directly supports and advocates for the targeting of civilians, by rockets, suicide bombers, and other means.
2. Openly calls for the total annihilation of Israel.
3. Indoctrinates Palestinian children from infancy to hate Jews and become Martyrs in the act of killing Jews and destroying Israel.
4. Denies the holocaust happened.
5. Rewrites history in children's textbooks.
5. Steals humanitarian aid destined for its people.
6. Operates weaponry from schools and mosques
7. Uses civilians as human shields.
8. etc., etc., etc.

In my opinion, things will only get worse until Hamas has been totally eradicated.




Basically, the Anti-Israeli stance seems to consist of the following:

1. The Jews of Israel stole Arab land-they are therefore in the wrong! (ignoring that the founding of Israel was not at all that simple or one sided)
2. Any force used by Israel on any Palestinians for any reason is tyranny: any good things done for the Palestinians are ignored.
3. Anything done by any Palestinians is some form of freedom fighting initially provoked by the Israelis.


Great except let's just switch 'eradicate Hamas' to 'eradicate every violent {Islamic} terrorist group'. And by 'terrorist' I mean a group that actually intentionally targets civilians. Such as suicide and remotely detonated bombings on buses. Commercial jetliner hijackings. indiscriminate launching of unguided missiles into civilian inhabited areas. Public executions and dragging bodies through the streets. Beheadings. Throwing acid in girls faces ect ect.

For the record, evidence of widespread modern day conflicts around the world nearly all involve radical Islamists. These people can barely keep the peace among themselves, let alone their neighbours. These groups are an international security threat and everyone knows it.

Israel is simply dealing with the same thing most modern nations have. Like Russia. I wonder how Russia managed to handle their situation hmmmm. Haven't heard anything blowing up around them recently. Maybe Israel should take a page from the book of dealing with Islamic terrorism, Russian style.

Edited by Special Ed, 22 November 2012 - 11:55 PM.

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#489 Coda

Coda

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,175 posts
  • Joined: 11-December 03

Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

Great except let's just switch 'eradicate Hamas' to 'eradicate every violent {Islamic} terrorist group'. And by 'terrorist' I mean a group that actually intentionally targets civilians. Such as suicide and remotely detonated bombings on buses. Commercial jetliner hijackings.Or indiscriminate launching of unguided missiles into civilian inhabited areas. Public executions and dragging bodies through the streets. Beheadings. Throwing acid in girls faces ect ect.

For the record, evidence of widespread modern day conflicts around the world nearly all involve radical Islamists. These people can barely keep the peace among themselves, let alone their neighbours. These groups are an international security threat and everyone knows it.

Israel is simply dealing with the same thing most modern nations have. Like Russia. I wonder how Russia managed to handle their situation hmmmm. Haven't heard anything blowing up around them recently. Maybe Israel should take a page from the book of dealing with Islamic terrorism Russian style.


Ideally that would be good. But it's not a simple problem. Think how many people, military and civilian, were killed trying to get rid of Osama Bin Laden. Western countries and their foreign policies are not perfect: about as often as not western military intervention in the middle east and elsewhere has made things worse rather than better.

#490 Special Ed

Special Ed

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,664 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

Ideally that would be good. But it's not a simple problem. Think how many people, military and civilian, were killed trying to get rid of Osama Bin Laden. Western countries and their foreign policies are not perfect: about as often as not western military intervention in the middle east and elsewhere has made things worse rather than better.


The 'West' is obligated to follow all these rules and politics, which weaken their position against terrorist groups that embed themselves with the civilian population. interesting how one side can be criticized so much and then you have Russia. Who knew how to deal with it. Do you think Russia killed civilians along the way? Maybe just a few. But for some reason what Russia did and how was totally acceptable. Definite international discriminate double standards between nations going on.

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#491 Buddhas Hand

Buddhas Hand

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,900 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 11

Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

Interesting. I'm guessing most of the Anti-Israelis on this forum are Caucasians living in North America. I suppose you would think it a reasonable response for the native population to start blowing up buses in your city, suicide bombing civilians, and shooting hundreds of rockets from reserves into neighbouring towns. I suppose you'd think the angry response would be "ironic" and condemn the governments from responding to stop the attacks.

Actually...no you wouldn't.


And this is a perfect example of a person not being able to raciocinate .

Just because i critisised Israel's actions in certain circumstances , does not mean i am anti israeli .

When i condemn hitler and mussolini , does this make me anti german and anti italian ?

I have condemned the actions of the extremist palestinians in this thread numerous time's , does this make me anti palestinian ?

Oh and by the way i live in australia , and i think the way we have treated our Aborigine's is abominable , and i am ashamed and angry at australia's policy in regards to asylum seeker's , does this make me anti australian ?

I think it's rad when balls beats natural talent

Shaun Palmer

 

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi


#492 Buddhas Hand

Buddhas Hand

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,900 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 11

Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:42 AM

those who have adopted pro-palestinian views seem to assume that the argument is anti-palestinian.
it is anti-hamas and anti-terrorism. apples and oranges, people.

too many little groups with different perspectives, morals and goals to lump them into 2 groups: palestinian and israeli.


I am under no such illusion Mate.

I believe the post above illustrates this .

I think it's rad when balls beats natural talent

Shaun Palmer

 

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi


#493 Buddhas Hand

Buddhas Hand

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,900 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 11

Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:46 AM

Nah. Just a continuation of the "strong-man" culture in the region.

Partly why i never shared the enthusiasm that some had for the revolution but more importantly the election of the MB.



Yes , freedom of choice {democracy}seems to be an ideal that many from that region cannot grasp , they prefer freedom from choice .

I think it's rad when balls beats natural talent

Shaun Palmer

 

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi


#494 DarthNinja

DarthNinja

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,971 posts
  • Joined: 18-November 08

Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:20 PM

Call me a 'Zionist supporter' all you want. I'm not a Jew nor have even befriended one. Never been to Israel and don't plan to go. If being against radical Islamic factions who currently terrorize the world on a global scale makes me a 'Zionist supporter' well I guess I must be.


With all due respect, this statement, plain and simple, is precisely the reason why you are the last individual who is fit to comment on this topic due to how utterly clueless and ignorant you are of both the current and historical reality.

You know nothing about the reality, nothing about the history, nothing about any facts and every statement you've made reflects that you've done absolutely zero research into this subject.

The only thing you are capable of is merely regurgitating the nonsense that your TV fills your mind with.

**RETIRED...**

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

        Sig too big, images removed. - SN

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#495 Special Ed

Special Ed

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,664 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 23 November 2012 - 09:51 PM

With all due respect, this statement, plain and simple, is precisely the reason why you are the last individual who is fit to comment on this topic due to how utterly clueless and ignorant you are of both the current and historical reality.

You know nothing about the reality, nothing about the history, nothing about any facts and every statement you've made reflects that you've done absolutely zero research into this subject.

The only thing you are capable of is merely regurgitating the nonsense that your TV fills your mind with.


According to you? Well that's fine with me. I feel the same about you being disillusioned in the reality of the world and caught up in historical elements which have nothing to do with current events. I'm not into conspiracies and false flags. Personally I think they're ridiculous and overblown. If you don't like that about me no big deal lets just move on and you can simply not reply to my posts. But you won't deter me from posting with your 'you know nothing about nothing' speech. For a second time... I don't watch TV.




If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#496 DarthNinja

DarthNinja

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,971 posts
  • Joined: 18-November 08

Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:21 PM

According to you? Well that's fine with me. I feel the same about you being disillusioned in the reality of the world and caught up in historical elements which have nothing to do with current events. I'm not into conspiracies and false flags. Personally I think they're ridiculous and overblown. If you don't like that about me no big deal lets just move on and you can simply not reply to my posts. But you won't deter me from posting with your 'you know nothing about nothing' speech. For a second time... I don't watch TV.


Wow....just...wow! :sadno:

Say what you like, but you continuously display your ignorance on this topic. Don't worry, you're far from alone. I just had to reply to that last comment of yours because it punctuated your ignorance.

And I'm not saying 'you know nothing about nothing'. I'm saying you know nothing about this topic (except what the MSM feeds you).

**RETIRED...**

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

        Sig too big, images removed. - SN

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#497 Special Ed

Special Ed

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,664 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 23 November 2012 - 10:42 PM

Wow....just...wow! :sadno:

Say what you like, but you continuously display your ignorance on this topic. Don't worry, you're far from alone. I just had to reply to that last comment of yours because it punctuated your ignorance.

And I'm not saying 'you know nothing about nothing'. I'm saying you know nothing about this topic (except what the MSM feeds you).


See we just have different perspectives here. Mine is that the problem Israel faces is not local. It's global issue which I have already outlined that several times. I personally don't believe that 'historical elements' revolving around 'land disputes' are relevant to the core issue with what's happening in regards. As i said the 'land disputes' are merely just an excuse therefore not relevant to me. I can see how that would look ignorant to someone who is certain about the 'land grab' senario. And I don't blame anyone for thinking that. Nor do I think I'm 100% right.

That being said I'm still open to discussion on this difficult topic. I have not insulted anyone and apologies to any disrespect others may have felt from my comments. I'm by no means perfect and as I have said before... A casual observer with an opinion. An opinion which could be swayed believe it or not, but I have not seen anything that would change it yet.

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#498 Tearloch7

Tearloch7

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,219 posts
  • Joined: 15-July 10

Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:45 PM

I have never been quite so involved in a topic since Shane Doan re-signed in the Desert .. for the record:

I neither hate Israel, nor love "Palestine" ..

I hate oppression, for it leads to war ..

I hate war, for it leads to fanaticism ..

I hate fanaticism, for it leads to loss of "self" ..

It is too easy to find something to hate ..

Shalom ..

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#499 DarthNinja

DarthNinja

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,971 posts
  • Joined: 18-November 08

Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:49 PM

See we just have different perspectives here. Mine is that the problem Israel faces is not local. It's global issue which I have already outlined that several times. I personally don't believe that 'historical elements' revolving around 'land disputes' are relevant to the core issue with what's happening in regards. As i said the 'land disputes' are merely just an excuse therefore not relevant to me. I can see how that would look ignorant to someone who is certain about the 'land grab' senario. And I don't blame anyone for thinking that. Nor do I think I'm 100% right.

That being said I'm still open to discussion on this difficult topic. I have not insulted anyone and apologies to any disrespect others may have felt from my comments. I'm by no means perfect and as I have said before... A casual observer with an opinion. An opinion which could be swayed believe it or not, but I have not seen anything that would change it yet.


Ed, I'm simply going to say that I commend you for this post. (And no, I didn't misspell 'condemn' :P )

**RETIRED...**

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

        Sig too big, images removed. - SN

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#500 Tearloch7

Tearloch7

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,219 posts
  • Joined: 15-July 10

Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:58 PM

See we just have different perspectives here. Mine is that the problem Israel faces is not local. It's global issue which I have already outlined that several times. I personally don't believe that 'historical elements' revolving around 'land disputes' are relevant to the core issue with what's happening in regards. As i said the 'land disputes' are merely just an excuse therefore not relevant to me. I can see how that would look ignorant to someone who is certain about the 'land grab' senario. And I don't blame anyone for thinking that. Nor do I think I'm 100% right.

That being said I'm still open to discussion on this difficult topic. I have not insulted anyone and apologies to any disrespect others may have felt from my comments. I'm by no means perfect and as I have said before... A casual observer with an opinion. An opinion which could be swayed believe it or not, but I have not seen anything that would change it yet.


A wonderful sentiment .. it seem easy to become "involved" without pushing perspective .. I worry for the children .. nothing destroys innocence faster than oppression, war and hate ..

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#501 Buddhas Hand

Buddhas Hand

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,900 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 11

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:27 AM

See we just have different perspectives here. Mine is that the problem Israel faces is not local. It's global issue which I have already outlined that several times. I personally don't believe that 'historical elements' revolving around 'land disputes' are relevant to the core issue with what's happening in regards. As i said the 'land disputes' are merely just an excuse therefore not relevant to me. I can see how that would look ignorant to someone who is certain about the 'land grab' senario. And I don't blame anyone for thinking that. Nor do I think I'm 100% right.

That being said I'm still open to discussion on this difficult topic. I have not insulted anyone and apologies to any disrespect others may have felt from my comments. I'm by no means perfect and as I have said before... A casual observer with an opinion. An opinion which could be swayed believe it or not, but I have not seen anything that would change it yet.


Your best post in this thread Ed , you got a plus from me .

Doesn't it feel good to use reason and logic :)

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 24 November 2012 - 12:28 AM.

I think it's rad when balls beats natural talent

Shaun Palmer

 

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi


#502 DarthNinja

DarthNinja

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,971 posts
  • Joined: 18-November 08

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:47 AM

The propensity of some to compare the Israelis with Nazis is sickening given (1) how out of line with reality it is and (2) the jewish experience with the Nazis in world war 2. Does a more insensitive comparison exist in the world? Some may compare I imagine, but I don't think any could surpass it.


The propensity to compare Judaism with Zionism is really this issue, considering what Zionists were responsible for against Jews during WWII as well as the holocaust and in general to further their own agenda.

Zionists in fact formed an agreement with Nazis, which was known as the 'Haavara' and Zionist terrorist groups such as the Stern gang Lehi offered a military alliance with Hitler to help fight against the British in Palestine. Members and even leaders of the terrorist groups Irgun and Stern gang went on to become Prime Ministers of Israel or serve in the government (Menachem Begin - 6th Prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir - 7th Prime Minister, Yaakov Meridor, Aryeh Ben-Elezieh, Haim Landau, Yehuda Lapidot, Eliyahu Lenkin, Eitan Livni {father of Tzipi Livni}, Eliyahu Meridor, Amichai Paglin, Shmuel Tamir...)

To deny that Israel is a state that was founded on terrorism and extreme violence and exists through terrorism and extreme violence is simply nonsense. Irgun was declared a terrorist organization by the UN, US and UK. Irgun then went on to become a part of the IDF. What this in reality means is that the IDF was a large enough terrorist group that it was able to swallow up the Irgun. And so what about today then?

Menachem Begin who was one of the terrorist group Irgun's leaders and went on to become Israel's 6th PM was referred to as a 'terrorist' by Albert Einstein and numerous other Jews.

Let's have a look at what Yitzhak Shamir stated:

Terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today, and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this country, our war against the occupier...Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war…We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle.


Here is former terrorist group leader and the 7th Prime Minister of Israel; Yitzhak Shamir's wanted photo (he is in the middle):

Posted Image

When asked in an interview whether he minded being called "terrorists" he said "we were proud of it".

As for Nazis, allow me...actually, allow real Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann from Australia to educate.

This is very the powerful reality coming from those who are scholars of the Jewish faith as well as their own history.

From its' inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities...

This charismatic individual, the Rebbe of Satmar, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, did not mince any words. Straight to the point he called Zionism "the work of Satan", "a sacrilege" and "a blasphemy". He forbade any participation with anything even remotely associated with Zionism and said that Zionism was bound to call the wrath of G-d upon His people. He maintained this stance with unwavering bravery from the onset of Zionism whilst he was still in Hungary up until his death in New York where he lead a congregation numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Grand Rabbi Teitelbaum, scion to a legacy of holy mystics and Hassidic Masters unfortunately had his prediction fulfilled. We lost more than six million of our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters in a very horrible manner. This, more than six million holy people had to experience as punishment for the Zionist stupidity...

Zionist responsibility for the Holocaust is threefold.

1. The Holocaust was a punishment for disrespecting The Three Oaths (see Talmud, Tractate Kesubos p. 111a).

2. Zionist leaders openly withheld support, both financially and otherwise, to save their fellow brothers and sisters from a cruel death.

3. The leaders of the Zionist movement cooperated with Hitler and his cohorts on many occasions and in many ways.

Zionists Offer a Military Alliance with Hitler

It would be wishful thinking if it could be stated that the leaders of the Zionist movement sat back and ignored the plight of their dying brothers and sisters. Not only did they publicly refuse to assist in their rescue, but they actively participated with Hitler and the Nazi regime...

Early in 1935, a passenger ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left the German port of Bremerhaven. Its stern bore the Hebrew letter for its name, "Tel Aviv", while a swastika banner fluttered from the mast. And although the ship was Zionist owned, its captain was a National Socialist Party (Nazi) member. Many years later a traveler aboard the ship recalled this symbolic combination as a "metaphysical absurdity". Absurd or not, this is but one vignette from a little-known chapter of history: The wide ranging collaboration between Zionism and Hitler's Third Reich. In early January 1941 a small but important Zionist organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel", better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang...

This is just one example of the Zionist movements' collaboration with Hitler for the purpose of possibly receiving jurisdiction over a minute piece of earth, Palestine.

And to top it all up, brainwashing!

How far this unbelievable Zionist conspiracy has captured the Jewish masses, and how impossible it is for any different thought to penetrate their minds, even to the point of mere evaluation, can be seen in the vehemence of the reaction to any reproach. With blinded eyes and closed ears, any voice raised in protest and accusation is immediately suppressed and deafened by the thousandfold cry: "Traitor," "Enemy of the Jewish People."
http://www.jewsagain...aLiebermann.cfm


Let us also not forget the chilling words of Israel's first Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion:

"If I knew it was possible to save all the children in Germany by taking them to England, and only half of the children by taking them to Eretz Israel, I would choose the second solution."


There was also a coin that the Nazis minted based on the theme 'A Nazi Travels To Palestine'. This was before the state of Israel existed yet strangely enough, there was a swastika on one side of the coin and on the other, the 'Star of David' (which is actually an occult/satanic symbol and has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism).

Posted Image

Edited by DarthNinja_S19Blade, 24 November 2012 - 01:13 AM.

**RETIRED...**

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens & the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We (Allah) parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (Qur'an 21:30)

        Sig too big, images removed. - SN

"Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.” (David Rockefeller)


#503 Buddhas Hand

Buddhas Hand

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,900 posts
  • Joined: 19-December 11

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:54 AM

quote

Zionists in fact formed an agreement with Nazis, which was known as the 'Haavara' and Zionist terrorist groups such as the Stern gang Lehi offered a military alliance with Hitler to help fight against the British in Palestine. Members and even leaders of the terrorist groups Irgun and Stern gang went on to become Prime Ministers of Israel or serve in the government

Darth i have researched this as well .

It seems to me the ultimate expresssion of my enemies enemy is my friend , no matter what crimes that enemy was/ is perpetrating :sadno:

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 24 November 2012 - 12:55 AM.

I think it's rad when balls beats natural talent

Shaun Palmer

 

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi


#504 Tearloch7

Tearloch7

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,219 posts
  • Joined: 15-July 10

Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:31 AM

"And the truth shall set you free", unless you are in denial? .. history can be cruel ..

"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#505 taxi

taxi

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,756 posts
  • Joined: 16-September 06

Posted 24 November 2012 - 12:12 PM

Wow...

The Haavara agreement was made in 1933. Long before any concentration camps. The Germans wanted the Jews out of Germany and the Zionists wanted them into Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia....avara_Agreement

It was a deal made that basically helped Jews immigrate to British Mandate Palestine in exchange for giving up property (something they were eventually forced to do anyways).

Meanwhile the arab world fought alongside the nazis up until the end of WWII:

http://en.wikipedia...._the_Arab_world

Really? You really want to open this can of worms? Bwhaha. What are now Palestinians had regiments in the Nazi army. But a deal to move a few thousand Jews out of Nazi Germany in 1933 is the equivalent to colaboration?

#506 Special Ed

Special Ed

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,664 posts
  • Joined: 09-February 09

Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

Here's another video from Pat Condell:

http://www.liveleak....=8f3_1353859170

I love how Pat just lays it all out there saying what many don't have the guts to say. Most of what he has said I myself have already thought. So he's pretty close to where I'm at in regards to much of the worlds problems.

Edited by Special Ed, 25 November 2012 - 11:33 AM.

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#507 Primus099

Primus099

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: 17-October 12

Posted 05 December 2012 - 01:20 AM

Posted Image

#508 Heretic

Heretic

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,559 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 07

Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:17 AM

Time to lighten it up?

TO WHOM DOES THE LAND OF ISRAEL BELONG??

An Israeli Sense of Humor at United Nations set the record straight.

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the
United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want
to tell you something about Moses: When he struck the rock and it
brought forth water, he thought, "What a good opportunity to have a
bath!"

Moses removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the
water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.
A Palestinian had stolen them!

The Palestinian representative at the UN jumped up furiously and
shouted, "What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there
then."

The Israeli representative smiled and said, "And now that we have made
that clear, I will begin my speech."

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

 

cdc-unavailable.jpg


#509 Hobble

Hobble

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,851 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 07

Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:38 AM

Lp

#510 Bertuzzi Babe

Bertuzzi Babe

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,239 posts
  • Joined: 03-May 03

Posted 05 December 2012 - 11:43 AM

Time to lighten it up?

TO WHOM DOES THE LAND OF ISRAEL BELONG??

An Israeli Sense of Humor at United Nations set the record straight.

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the
United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want
to tell you something about Moses: When he struck the rock and it
brought forth water, he thought, "What a good opportunity to have a
bath!"

Moses removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the
water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.
A Palestinian had stolen them!

The Palestinian representative at the UN jumped up furiously and
shouted, "What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there
then."

The Israeli representative smiled and said, "And now that we have made
that clear, I will begin my speech."


Posted Image

Love it!!

"Sursumredditio" non usquam in hac mea loquantur!



Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....






Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.