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Israel takes out top Hamas commander after missiles launched from Gaza


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#241 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:35 AM

broke ass boards , it's telling me coda has posted but i do not see them when i log in the thread
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#242 Coda

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:36 AM

broke ass boards , it's telling me coda has posted but i do not see them when i log in the thread


Your loss! Well, I'm going to bed. Goodnight.
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#243 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:46 AM

I've never said that the Israelis have done nothing wrong.

I would guess you don't understand the situation very well, especially if you think that the problem can be solved by the Israelis. Tell me, what would you have the Israelis do to solve the conflict?


Obama Sees ’67 Borders as Starting Point for Peace Deal

Posted Image
Doug Mills/ The New York Times
President Obama spoke about Middle East policy at the State Department on Thursday.

By MARK LANDLER and STEVEN LEE MYERS


Published: May 19, 2011



Posted Image

WASHINGTON — President Obama, seeking to capture a moment of epochal change in the Arab world, began a new effort on Thursday to break the stalemate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, setting out a new starting point for negotiations on the region’s most intractable problem


















Posted Image
A day before the arrival in Washington of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, Mr. Obama declared that the prevailing borders before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war — adjusted to some degree to account for Israeli settlements in the West Bank — should be the basis of a deal. While the 1967 borders have long been viewed as the foundation for a peace agreement, Mr. Obama’s formula of land swaps to compensate for disputed territory created a new benchmark for a diplomatic solution.

Mr. Obama’s statement represented a subtle, but significant shift, in American policy. And it thrust him back into the region’s most nettlesome dispute at a time when conditions would seem to make reaching a deal especially difficult.
The Israeli government immediately protested, saying that for Israel to return to its pre-1967 borders would leave it “indefensible.” Mr. Netanyahu held an angry phone conversation with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday before the speech, officials said, in which he demanded that the president’s reference to 1967 borders be cut.
Israeli officials continued to lobby the administration until right before Mr. Obama arrived at the State Department for the address. White House officials said he did not alter anything under Israeli pressure, though the president made changes in the text that delayed his appearance by 35 minutes.
Mr. Obama’s reference to Israel’s borders came toward the end of a somber, 45-minute address that sought to articulate an overarching framework for the disparate American responses to the Arab Spring, which has taken a dark turn as the euphoria of popular revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt has given way to violent crackdowns in Bahrain and Syria, a civil war in Libya and political stalemate in Yemen.
The president offered a blunt critique of Arab governments and, without promising any changes in policy to confront repressive ones more aggressively, sought to assure protesters that they were squarely aligned with democratic American values in a region where the strategic interests of the United States have routinely trumped its values.
Those issues are delicate enough, but the diplomatic row with Israel highlighted the acute sensitivities that Mr. Obama faces as he seeks to link the changes in the Middle East with the conflict at the region’s heart.
“At a time when the people of the Middle East and North Africa are casting off the burdens of the past, the drive for a lasting peace that ends the conflict and resolves all claims is more urgent than ever,” he said.
At one level, by putting the United States on record as supporting the 1967 borders as the starting point for negotiations over a Palestinian state, Mr. Obama was simply endorsing reality: Middle East analysts say a new state would inevitably be drawn on the basis of Israel’s boundaries before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, which created the contours of today’s Middle East.
Israel’s victory over Egypt and other Arab neighbors in that war expanded its control over territory in the West Bank and Gaza inhabited by millions of Palestinians, creating a greater Israel — including all of the capital, Jerusalem — but one that oversees a resentful occupied population.
Mr. Obama also noted that Israel and the Palestinians would have to swap territory on either side of that border to account for large Jewish settlements that have taken root in the West Bank since 1967.
But the shift moves the United States a step closer to the position of the Palestinians, and is viewed as vital to them because it means the Americans implicitly back their view that new Israeli settlement construction will have to be reversed, or compensated for, in talks over the borders for a new Palestinian state.
Some analysts said Mr. Obama’s shift was less strategic than tactical, seeking to lure the Palestinians back to the negotiating table, as a way of heading off their campaign to seek international recognition of a Palestinian state at the United Nations General Assembly in September.
“He’s moving into a crisis-management mode, laying out principles to preserve the two-state solution and to prevent a U.N. resolution on a Palestinian state,” said Martin S. Indyk, the director of foreign policy at the Brookings Institution.
Mr. Obama expressed opposition to the Palestinian statehood effort, saying, “Symbolic efforts to isolate Israel at the United Nations in September won’t create an independent state.”
He also made several other gestures to Mr. Netanyahu, highlighting the security threats to Israel. Mr. Obama’s reference to a “nonmilitarized” Palestinian state is likely to dismay Palestinians, who have long said that such matters should be decided in negotiations. The president also said that the recent unity agreement between the two main Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, raised “profound and legitimate questions for Israel.”
“How can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist?” he said, referring to Hamas, which the United States has designated as a terrorist organization. “In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question.”
Mr. Obama’s emphasis on territory and security seemed calculated to segregate the issues on which the United States believes the Israelis and Palestinians can bargain. He said they should leave aside for now more deeply emotional questions like the status of Jerusalem and the fate of Palestinian refugees, which he suggested could be dealt with after border and security issues.
But Mr. Obama spoke with palpable frustration that his peacemaking efforts so far had failed. “The international community is tired of an endless process that never produces an outcome,” he said to an audience that included George J. Mitchell, who was his special envoy to the Middle East until resigning last week.
Beyond the stalled peace process, Mr. Obama celebrated “a moment of opportunity” after six months of political upheaval that has at times left the administration scrambling to keep up. Mr. Obama bluntly warned President Bashar al-Assad of Syria that he would face increasing isolation if he did not respond to demands for a transition to democracy.
“President Assad now has a choice,” Mr. Obama said. “He can lead that transition, or get out of the way.”
He was no less blunt in the case of Bahrain, a close ally that has brutally cracked down on protests there.
“The only way forward is for the government and opposition to engage in a dialogue, and you can’t have real dialogue when parts of the peaceful opposition are in jail,” he said in one of the few phrases that drew applause from an audience that included diplomats from a dozen Arab countries.
While he conceded that the United States had not been a central actor in the uprisings, he sought to cast America’s role in a new context now that the war in Iraq is winding down and Osama bin Laden has been killed. In such a world, Mr. Obama said, strategic interests must not trump values.
“We must acknowledge that a strategy based solely upon the narrow pursuit of these interests will not fill an empty stomach or allow someone to speak their mind,” Mr. Obama said.

I like the rest of the world think that pre 1967 borders are key to a peace settlment .
  • 2

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#244 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:48 AM

You are just trying to argue for arguments sake here. Ultra-orthodox Jews make up 8% of the Jewish population. The vast majority of these do not engage in vigilante modesty policing.

You on the other hand are supporting a faction (Hamas) that as a government of Gaza supports similar measures:




Show me where i have supported Hamas .
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#245 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:59 AM

Your loss! Well, I'm going to bed. Goodnight.


I must say , are a polite fellow , and it is pleasing to have a debate with a person who does not resort to personal attacks .

sleep well
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#246 Lancaster

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:29 AM

My 86 year old mum who is a white caucaisan , catholic australian , also believes that the jewish people are gods chosen people because so many of them are smart and talented :lol:


How does that relate in any way of what I posted?
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#247 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:33 AM

How does that relate in any way of what I posted?


I will give you a clue

Even though i love my mother dearly , i think what she believes is a bunch of crap .
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#248 Lancaster

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:49 AM

I will give you a clue

Even though i love my mother dearly , i think what she believes is a bunch of crap .


So I take it that you don't agree with what I posted... the part about how the UN Human Rights have members who are some of the world's worse human rights abusers?

I take it that you're a fan of this report? lol
http://www2.ohchr.or...A-HRC-16-15.pdf
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#249 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:01 AM

So I take it that you don't agree with what I posted... the part about how the UN Human Rights have members who are some of the world's worse human rights abusers?

I take it that you're a fan of this report? lol
http://www2.ohchr.or...A-HRC-16-15.pdf


I am saying that the rest of the world thinks that how the israeli's have treated the palestinians is wrong, and you trying to discredit that is a bunch of crap .
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#250 CanuckRow

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:49 AM

Israel sending food and supplies to Gaza: http://www.facebook....v=4304118635887

Edited by CanuckRow, 19 November 2012 - 09:50 AM.

  • 1

15yezck.jpg

 

 @Chel24Seven


#251 Special Ed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:07 AM

Are you an Israeli or a Jew? Am just wondering because you seem to go to great lengths in defending Israel.


Why because I don't want to just blindly dive into a list a know nothing about? And right after my post there is a video which clearly discredits that condemnation list against Israel. So now I won't even bother looking into it even though already many of those resolutions against Israel are just rehashed.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#252 Special Ed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:10 AM

Relevant video from last year's Durban conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Mupoo1At8


Great video and makes sense at first glance review of those resolutions. Many of which are partially just re-condemning Israel for similar previous violations with failure to consider some factors. Which led to more than a few countries abstained from the vote.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#253 Special Ed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:16 AM

The problems with those UN resolutions are that many decision are made for political/economic reasons. Many of them are just saying, "Hey Israel, we don't agree with your actions", not like they're declaring to dismantle the country or anything. Simple pink slips, nothing more.

We also know that a huge percentage of the UN seats are filled by Muslim nations, 3rd world countries, tin-pot dictators, etc.... most who are not fans of Israel. Heck, most would probably "condemn" the United States too, except they know the US can just veto any motion and that the United States would crush them economically if such a move occurred.


As for the UN Human Rights Council, it's one of the the biggest jokes out there. When some of the representatives are from China, Syria, Sudan, Saudi Arabia are in it and even a guy like Muammar Gaddafi was to be award the UN Human Rights Award (or something like that)... something is very wrong, and it ain't Israel.


That's the impression I got in reading some of those resolutions. +1
  • 0

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#254 Special Ed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:48 AM

http://www.liveleak....=c15_1353317953

Hamas song. Some of the lyrics: 'no truce or solution' 'no peace or bargain' 'we just want to bomb tel aviv'. Good luck Palestinians. With leaders like that, you're going to need it. I firmly believe that if Hamas stopped launching rockets then Israel would have to also stop at the very least in fear of looking the aggressor. But Hamas keeps launching despite growing civilian casualties. It's easy to see who the bad guys are here and it's not Israel clearly.




  • 2

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#255 Tearloch7

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

http://www.liveleak....=c15_1353317953

Hamas song. Some of the lyrics: 'no truce or solution' 'no peace or bargain' 'we just want to bomb tel aviv'. Good luck Palestinians. With leaders like that, you're going to need it. I firmly believe that if Hamas stopped launching rockets then Israel would have to also stop at the very least in fear of looking the aggressor. But Hamas keeps launching despite growing civilian casualties. It's easy to see who the bad guys are here and it's not Israel clearly.


Is it Hamas that is launching or renegade factions? .. what a screwed up mess .. civilian losses sit at 3 dead Israeli - 98 dead Arab civilians .. now that is a kill ratio that any militaristic country would applaud ..
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#256 Special Ed

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

Is it Hamas that is launching or renegade factions? .. what a screwed up mess .. civilian losses sit at 3 dead Israeli - 98 dead Arab civilians .. now that is a kill ratio that any militaristic country would applaud ..


That ratio surprises you? Not me. It will always be more Palestinian civilian dying. Israel has an exatensive warning + defence system. And a ton of air raid shelters. What has Hamas given the Palestian civilians to protect them? Maybe some IEDs on their street corner. Or a rocket launcher in their back yard. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why the ratio is lopsided.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#257 The Wizard of AZ

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:55 PM

That ratio surprises you? Not me. It will always be more Palestinian civilian dying. Israel has an exatensive warning + defence system. And a ton of air raid shelters. What has Hamas given the Palestian civilians to protect them? Maybe some IEDs on their street corner. Or a rocket launcher in their back yard. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why the ratio is lopsided.


Also, Hamas just shoots off rockets hoping to hit a target close to where they're aiming. Israel has more precision guided artillery.
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Posted Image


#258 Tearloch7

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

That ratio surprises you? Not me. It will always be more Palestinian civilian dying. Israel has an exatensive warning + defence system. And a ton of air raid shelters. What has Hamas given the Palestian civilians to protect them? Maybe some IEDs on their street corner. Or a rocket launcher in their back yard. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why the ratio is lopsided.


The ratio does not surprise me in the least .. what surprises me is that some would find false pride or braggadocio in the celebration of such a waste of innocent.s .. an example being the successful killing of a Hamas "leader" with collateral damage being 12 dead civilians, including 4 children and 4 women ..

I suppose in war there are no true "innocents", but if there is a "God", as most defenders of Israeli policy seem to believe, I am sure he is keeping score in his own inimitable way .. that is if he gives a rats rectum about his "Chosen ones" .. :sadno:
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#259 Coda

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

Obama Sees ’67 Borders as Starting Point for Peace Deal

Posted Image
Doug Mills/ The New York Times
President Obama spoke about Middle East policy at the State Department on Thursday.

By MARK LANDLER and STEVEN LEE MYERS


Published: May 19, 2011

Posted Image

WASHINGTON — President Obama, seeking to capture a moment of epochal change in the Arab world, began a new effort on Thursday to break the stalemate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, setting out a new starting point for negotiations on the region’s most intractable problem


















Posted Image
A day before the arrival in Washington of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, Mr. Obama declared that the prevailing borders before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war — adjusted to some degree to account for Israeli settlements in the West Bank — should be the basis of a deal. While the 1967 borders have long been viewed as the foundation for a peace agreement, Mr. Obama’s formula of land swaps to compensate for disputed territory created a new benchmark for a diplomatic solution.

Mr. Obama’s statement represented a subtle, but significant shift, in American policy. And it thrust him back into the region’s most nettlesome dispute at a time when conditions would seem to make reaching a deal especially difficult.
The Israeli government immediately protested, saying that for Israel to return to its pre-1967 borders would leave it “indefensible.” Mr. Netanyahu held an angry phone conversation with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Thursday before the speech, officials said, in which he demanded that the president’s reference to 1967 borders be cut.
Israeli officials continued to lobby the administration until right before Mr. Obama arrived at the State Department for the address. White House officials said he did not alter anything under Israeli pressure, though the president made changes in the text that delayed his appearance by 35 minutes.
Mr. Obama’s reference to Israel’s borders came toward the end of a somber, 45-minute address that sought to articulate an overarching framework for the disparate American responses to the Arab Spring, which has taken a dark turn as the euphoria of popular revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt has given way to violent crackdowns in Bahrain and Syria, a civil war in Libya and political stalemate in Yemen.
The president offered a blunt critique of Arab governments and, without promising any changes in policy to confront repressive ones more aggressively, sought to assure protesters that they were squarely aligned with democratic American values in a region where the strategic interests of the United States have routinely trumped its values.
Those issues are delicate enough, but the diplomatic row with Israel highlighted the acute sensitivities that Mr. Obama faces as he seeks to link the changes in the Middle East with the conflict at the region’s heart.
“At a time when the people of the Middle East and North Africa are casting off the burdens of the past, the drive for a lasting peace that ends the conflict and resolves all claims is more urgent than ever,” he said.
At one level, by putting the United States on record as supporting the 1967 borders as the starting point for negotiations over a Palestinian state, Mr. Obama was simply endorsing reality: Middle East analysts say a new state would inevitably be drawn on the basis of Israel’s boundaries before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, which created the contours of today’s Middle East.
Israel’s victory over Egypt and other Arab neighbors in that war expanded its control over territory in the West Bank and Gaza inhabited by millions of Palestinians, creating a greater Israel — including all of the capital, Jerusalem — but one that oversees a resentful occupied population.
Mr. Obama also noted that Israel and the Palestinians would have to swap territory on either side of that border to account for large Jewish settlements that have taken root in the West Bank since 1967.
But the shift moves the United States a step closer to the position of the Palestinians, and is viewed as vital to them because it means the Americans implicitly back their view that new Israeli settlement construction will have to be reversed, or compensated for, in talks over the borders for a new Palestinian state.
Some analysts said Mr. Obama’s shift was less strategic than tactical, seeking to lure the Palestinians back to the negotiating table, as a way of heading off their campaign to seek international recognition of a Palestinian state at the United Nations General Assembly in September.
“He’s moving into a crisis-management mode, laying out principles to preserve the two-state solution and to prevent a U.N. resolution on a Palestinian state,” said Martin S. Indyk, the director of foreign policy at the Brookings Institution.
Mr. Obama expressed opposition to the Palestinian statehood effort, saying, “Symbolic efforts to isolate Israel at the United Nations in September won’t create an independent state.”
He also made several other gestures to Mr. Netanyahu, highlighting the security threats to Israel. Mr. Obama’s reference to a “nonmilitarized” Palestinian state is likely to dismay Palestinians, who have long said that such matters should be decided in negotiations. The president also said that the recent unity agreement between the two main Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, raised “profound and legitimate questions for Israel.”
“How can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist?” he said, referring to Hamas, which the United States has designated as a terrorist organization. “In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question.”
Mr. Obama’s emphasis on territory and security seemed calculated to segregate the issues on which the United States believes the Israelis and Palestinians can bargain. He said they should leave aside for now more deeply emotional questions like the status of Jerusalem and the fate of Palestinian refugees, which he suggested could be dealt with after border and security issues.
But Mr. Obama spoke with palpable frustration that his peacemaking efforts so far had failed. “The international community is tired of an endless process that never produces an outcome,” he said to an audience that included George J. Mitchell, who was his special envoy to the Middle East until resigning last week.
Beyond the stalled peace process, Mr. Obama celebrated “a moment of opportunity” after six months of political upheaval that has at times left the administration scrambling to keep up. Mr. Obama bluntly warned President Bashar al-Assad of Syria that he would face increasing isolation if he did not respond to demands for a transition to democracy.
“President Assad now has a choice,” Mr. Obama said. “He can lead that transition, or get out of the way.”
He was no less blunt in the case of Bahrain, a close ally that has brutally cracked down on protests there.
“The only way forward is for the government and opposition to engage in a dialogue, and you can’t have real dialogue when parts of the peaceful opposition are in jail,” he said in one of the few phrases that drew applause from an audience that included diplomats from a dozen Arab countries.
While he conceded that the United States had not been a central actor in the uprisings, he sought to cast America’s role in a new context now that the war in Iraq is winding down and Osama bin Laden has been killed. In such a world, Mr. Obama said, strategic interests must not trump values.
“We must acknowledge that a strategy based solely upon the narrow pursuit of these interests will not fill an empty stomach or allow someone to speak their mind,” Mr. Obama said.

I like the rest of the world think that pre 1967 borders are key to a peace settlment .



As I thought, you don't have a firm grasp of the issues at hand. Returning to the 1967 borders will not solve the problem because

1. The goal is not two states but the destruction of israel. Evidence:

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=449


PA depicts a world without Israel The Palestinian Authority makes no attempt to educate its people towards peace and coexistence with Israel. On the contrary, from every possible platform it repeatedly rejects Israel's right to exist, presents the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, depicts the establishment of Israel as an act of imperialism, and perpetuates a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all. Israel's destruction is said to be both inevitable and a Palestinian obligation.

The following description of Israel's founding in a Palestinian schoolbook represents the dominant dogma about Israel:


Posted Image
"Palestine’s war ended with a catastrophe that is unprecedented in history, when the Zionist gangs stole Palestine … and established the State of Israel."
[Arabic Language, Analysis, Literature and Criticism, grade 12, p. 104]



This official PA map of "Palestine” was broadcast on PA TV in September 2011. The map includes both the PA areas and all of Israel (excluding the Golan Heights) wrapped in the Palestinian flag - a symbol of Palestinian sovereignty over the whole area - and has a key through it, symbolizing ownership. Similar maps presenting all of Israel as "Palestine" appear in Palestinian schoolbooks and are shown regularly on PA TV. Future: A world without Israel The PA promises its people that in the future, the State of Israel will be completely erased and replaced by a State of Palestine. A Fatah member of Palestinian parliament, Najat Abu Bakr, told PA TV that the PA supports and adopts the “stages plan.” To the world, the PA claims that the Palestinians seek the West Bank and Gaza Strip, when in fact the goal is all of Israel: “It doesn’t mean that we don’t want the 1948 borders, but in our current political program we say we want a state on the 1967 borders.” [PA TV (Fatah), Aug. 25, 2008]

Fatah Central Committee member Abbas Zaki reiterated this position on Al-Jazeera TV:

“It is impossible to realize the inspiring idea or the great goal in one stroke… Israel will come to an end… If I say that I want to remove it from existence, this will be great, great, [but] it is hard. This is not a [stated] policy. You can't say it to the world. You can say it to yourself.” [Al-Jazeera TV, Sept. 23, 2011]



The following words from a song on official PA TV, which started to appear in 2012, expresses longing for the day that Jaffa, Acre, Haifa and the Galilee, all in Israel, will be part of “my country” (“Palestine”) where all cities would be accessible "with no borders":

"I wish I could enter my country with no borders...
I will go about in Bethlehem and in Al-Aqsa [Mosque], which is held captive...



I do not forget Jenin or Nablus, and the Galilee
I do not forget you, Jaffa…
To Jerusalem, to Ramle, to Acre, to Haifa, oh Lord...
I wish I could enter my country with no borders." [PA TV (Fatah), Feb. 9, 2012]



The PA’s using culture to long for the destruction of Israel is not new. Many examples can be seen in this section below, including a music video, which aired on official PA TV from 2007 – 2009 and promises the liberation of “Palestine,” listing numerous Israeli cities as “Palestine”:

"We will liberate the Land of the religions … Palestine is Arab in history and identity… From Jerusalem and Acre, from Haifa and Jericho and Gaza and Ramallah, from Bethlehem and Jaffa, Be'er Sheba and Ramle, and from Nablus to the Galilee, from Tiberias to Hebron.”

Finally, the newest PA schoolbooks teach that "Palestine will be liberated by its men, its women, its young ones and its elderly." [Arabic Language and the Science of Language, grade 12, p. 44] Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Click to view video
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Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image PA daily op-ed expresses hope for Israel's destruction Source: Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, May 15, 2012 Op-ed published in the official PA daily published on May 15, the anniversary of the founding of the modern state of Israel:
"For 64 years we have not forgotten the light breeze of the Galilee, we have not forgotten the hymn of life in Tel Al-Rabi'a (i.e., Arabic translation of Tel Aviv, to wrongly imply the existence of an Arab village of that name prior to Tel Aviv), we have not forgotten the fragrance of the narcissus on the slopes of the Carmel. We remember you, all of Palestine. As long as we remain far from you, you are present within us as pain and sorrow, until we return to you, oh Haifa, Acre, and Jaffa, all of historical Palestine, so that life will return within us, and life will return within you, and all the temporary ones [Israelis] will go away. May their theory collapse, may their independence collapse, and may Palestine come back to life."
Click to view bulletin
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Click to view bulletin
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Click to view video
Posted Image Posted Image Hamas leader: “You [Israel] will be brought out of Palestine – all of Palestine… We will annihilate your existence” Source: Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 7, 2011 "In a speech entitled 'At Your Command, Jerusalem' which he delivered at the Sixth Conference to Maintain the Principles [held] yesterday, [senior Hamas member] Al-Zahar said: 'We state explicitly and in the clearest manner […] to anyone concerned – he must know that we are the resistance program which will not cast down its weapons until all of Palestine is liberated.'
He added that he is talking about all 'forms of the resistance known to this period and all periods.' He emphasized, 'We are altogether convinced that we will restore all of our land, from Rosh Hanikra (i.e., in Northern Israel) to Rafiah (i.e., southern part of the Gaza Strip), and we will join the enterprise of our glorious nation in order to realize its tremendous cultural enterprise.'
He added, 'We say to Israel - just as these prisoners [freed in the recent prisoner exchange deal] were brought out of prison, so you will be brought out of Palestine – all of Palestine… Know, Zionists, in every country in which you find yourselves: You will not extinguish the eternal oil lamp of Jerusalem, nor will you silence the sound of the [church] bells and the minarets (…) [Rather,] it is we who will annihilate your existence."





Israel cannot return to 1967 borders because those borders are indefensible. Thus:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0



2.

Edited by Coda, 19 November 2012 - 03:11 PM.

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#260 Tearloch7

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:26 PM

Counter proposal .. let us all buy the Israeli's Greenland .. with global warming, it will soon resemble Judea and they can target practice on narwhal whales and the Inuit invaders from Baffin Island .. defensible borders for the win ..

Freakin terrorist harp seals all around ..

Edited by Tearloch7, 19 November 2012 - 03:27 PM.

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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

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#261 Coda

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:29 PM

Show me where i have supported Hamas .


:lol: You are quite ridiculous. You want to characterize Israel by its tiny minority of ultra-orthodox vigilantes, but distance yourself from the elected government of Gaza that is responsible for attacks on Israel and for propagating anti-jewish and anti-israeli sentiment in the Palestinian territories?

That's like saying "I supported Germany in World War II, I just didn't support its government".

Tell me: what stances of Hamas do you not support?
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#262 Tearloch7

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:33 PM

You are ranting at someone who has not been on for about 10 hours? .. keep yer powder dry, laddie .. :lol:
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"To Thine Own Self Be True"

 

"Always tell the Truth. That way, you don’t have to remember what you said"  ~ Mark Twain ~
 


#263 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:55 PM

Why because I don't want to just blindly dive into a list a know nothing about? And right after my post there is a video which clearly discredits that condemnation list against Israel. So now I won't even bother looking into it even though already many of those resolutions against Israel are just rehashed.


Some BS video that someone posted PROVES NOTHING .

THE WHOLE WORLD IS WRONG , BUT YOU AND THE ISRAELI"S ARE RIGHT .
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#264 DonLever

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

57% of Americans support Israel in this conflict. Only 13% support the Palestinians.
http://www.ynetnews....4308669,00.html

Not too surprising given the propaganda given out by Hollywood with the hundeds if not thousands of movies/books/tv shows about the Holocaust. They keep bringing out that Israel is a victim rather than an aggressor which is farthest from the truth as possible. Israel got all the tanks, weapons, war planes, and nuclear devices yet the American public think it is the underdog. What a joke!


The reverse is true outside of the US where Isreal is rightly seen as the aggressor.

And what do Hamas have? Th silly song quoted by Special Ed?
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#265 Coda

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

57% of Americans support Israel in this conflict. Only 13% support the Palestinians.
http://www.ynetnews....4308669,00.html

Not too surprising given the propaganda given out by Hollywood with the hundeds if not thousands of movies/books/tv shows about the Holocaust. They keep bringing out that Israel is a victim rather than an aggressor which is farthest from the truth as possible. Israel got all the tanks, weapons, war planes, and nuclear devices yet the American public think it is the underdog. What a joke!


The reverse is true outside of the US where Isreal is rightly seen as the aggressor.

And what do Hamas have? Th silly song quoted by Special Ed?


You seem to have the idea that the underdog is necessarily the victim. Maybe your confusion comes from a misunderstanding of the terminology?
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#266 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:19 PM

:lol: You are quite ridiculous. You want to characterize Israel by its tiny minority of ultra-orthodox vigilantes, but distance yourself from the elected government of Gaza that is responsible for attacks on Israel and for propagating anti-jewish and anti-israeli sentiment in the Palestinian territories?

That's like saying "I supported Germany in World War II, I just didn't support its government".

Tell me: what stances of Hamas do you not support?


Listen mate , i will say this as simply as i possibly can so you will understand .

Just because i am pointing out the the crimes and actions of one nation , does not mean i am defending the actions of the nation that it is at war with.

As i have said over and over in this thread , i deplore the actions of the fanatics on both side's , i support the side that comes up with a peaceful solution to this conflict that seems to be never ending .

The movie , The promise , which i have posted a video of the director being interviewed , was made by a british jew , who wanted to promote the jewish cause , was a a documentary about the 800 british troops that were sent on a UN mandate to palestine .

Many of those troops fought in the allied landing's and all the way to germany , and when they first got to palestine , they had a deep sympathy for the jews and said they should be given anything they want .

but after seeing some of the attrocities the jews committed , this atittude changed , especially after the dier yassin masssarce , i have seen the re-enactment , the jews would just open doors of houses and gun down the innocent people inside , this was a deliberate ploy to send a message of fear and terror , and it worked ,

The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history. This is not because of its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and other Jews from the rest of the world.


THE MOVIE PROMISES
I urge you to watch this , it is basically about the future of this conflict , it deals with israeli and palestinian kids and it is unsripted and the kids speak with an honesty that only children speak with , i cried and i laughed {the burping WAR between 2 kids} , and i felt hope and despair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ryzl0CE5fc&feature=player_embedded

If you care at all about this conflict you will watch this documentary

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 19 November 2012 - 04:24 PM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#267 taxi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:20 PM

57% of Americans support Israel in this conflict. Only 13% support the Palestinians.
http://www.ynetnews....4308669,00.html

Not too surprising given the propaganda given out by Hollywood with the hundeds if not thousands of movies/books/tv shows about the Holocaust. They keep bringing out that Israel is a victim rather than an aggressor which is farthest from the truth as possible. Israel got all the tanks, weapons, war planes, and nuclear devices yet the American public think it is the underdog. What a joke!


The reverse is true outside of the US where Isreal is rightly seen as the aggressor.

And what do Hamas have? Th silly song quoted by Special Ed?


Could also have something to do with:

1) Israel is a democracy

2) Israel is one of the only countries ever to go to war for America:

3) After 9/11 Israel told the USA they were willing to die for them. The Palestinians had a parde in the street.

4) Israel has been allied with the USA through the entire cold war. The Palestinians were allied with the USSR.

Although maybe you're right. The only reason the American public doesn't support an islamist government is because of propaganda. Your rationale that the USA should support Hamas merely because they are losing also presents a few problems.
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#268 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:31 PM

As I thought, you don't have a firm grasp of the issues at hand. Returning to the 1967 borders will not solve the problem because

1. The goal is not two states but the destruction of israel. Evidence:

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=449









Israel cannot return to 1967 borders because those borders are indefensible. Thus:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hZ6SlSqq0



2.


I fully understand , you are just toeing the BS israeli propaghanda line .

Again , EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG , and you and the Israeli's are right , and the circle of hatred continues .
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#269 taxi

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:32 PM

Listen mate , i will say this as simply as i possibly can so you will understand .

Just because i am pointing out the the crimes and actions of one nation , does not mean i am defending the actions of the nation that it is at war with.

As i have said over and over in this thread , i deplore the actions of the fanatics on both side's , i support the side that comes up with a peaceful solution to this conflict that seems to be never ending .

The movie , The promise , which i have posted a video of the director being interviewed , was made by a british jew , who wanted to promote the jewish cause , was a a documentary about the 800 british troops that were sent on a UN mandate to palestine .

Many of those troops fought in the allied landing's and all the way to germany , and when they first got to palestine , they had a deep sympathy for the jews and said they should be given anything they want .

but after seeing some of the attrocities the jews committed , this atittude changed , especially after the dier yassin masssarce , i have seen the re-enactment , the jews would just open doors of houses and gun down the innocent people inside , this was a deliberate ploy to send a message of fear and terror , and it worked ,

The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is one of the most significant events in 20th-century Palestinian and Israeli history. This is not because of its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and other Jews from the rest of the world.






By the "rest of the world" what you really mean is other parts of the Ottoman Empire where the Jews from arab countries were eliminated. Also, since the arab armies destoryed all of the Jewish villages in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. Does that mean we can expect you to "stop pointing out" the "crimes" of one side?

Edited by taxi, 19 November 2012 - 04:32 PM.

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#270 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:36 PM

Could also have something to do with:

1) Israel is a democracy

2) Israel is one of the only countries ever to go to war for America:

3) After 9/11 Israel told the USA they were willing to die for them. The Palestinians had a parde in the street.

4) Israel has been allied with the USA through the entire cold war. The Palestinians were allied with the USSR.

Although maybe you're right. The only reason the American public doesn't support an islamist government is because of propaganda. Your rationale that the USA should support Hamas merely because they are losing also presents a few problems.


You did not seem to learn the first time around , maybe if you read it again you MIGHT GET IT

The History of US-Israel Relations

Part One


How the “special relationship” was created



Alison Weir
September 2011

While many people are led to believe that US support for Israel is driven by the American establishment and U.S. national interests, the facts don’t support this theory. The reality is that for decades U.S. experts opposed Israel and its founding movement. They were simply outmaneuvered and eventually replaced.­
Like many American policies, U.S. Middle East policies are driven by a special interest lobby. However, the Israel Lobby, as it is called today in the U.S.[1], consists of vastly more than what most people envision in the word “lobby.”
As this article will demonstrate, the Israel Lobby is considerably more powerful and pervasive than other lobbies. Components of it, both individuals and groups, have worked underground, secretly and even illegally throughout its history, as documented by scholars and participants.
And even though the movement for Israel has been operating in the U.S. for over a hundred years, most Americans are completely unaware of this movement and its attendant ideology – a measure of its unique influence over public knowledge.
The success of this movement to achieve its goals, partly due to the hidden nature of much of its activity, has been staggering. It has also been at almost unimaginable cost.
It has led to massive tragedy in the Middle East: a hundred-year war of violence and loss; sacred land soaked in sorrow.
In addition, this movement has been profoundly damaging to the United States itself.
As we will see in this two-part examination of the pro-Israel movement, it has targeted virtually every significant sector of American society; worked to involve Americans in tragic, unnecessary, and profoundly costly wars; dominated Congress for decades; increasingly determined which candidates could become serious contenders for the U.S. presidency; and promoted bigotry toward an entire population, religion and culture.
It has promoted policies that have exposed Americans to growing danger, and then exaggerated this danger (while disguising its cause), fueling recent actions that dismember some of our nation’s most fundamental freedoms and cherished principles.
All this for a population that is considerably smaller than New Jersey.[2]
The beginnings
The Israel Lobby is just the tip of an older and far larger iceberg known as “political Zionism,” an international movement that began in the late 1800s with the goal of creating a Jewish state somewhere in the world. In 1897 this movement, led by a European journalist named Theodore Herzl[3], coalesced in the First Zionist World Congress, held in Basle, Switzerland, which established the World Zionist Organization, representing approximately 120 groups the first year; 900 the next.[4]
While Zionists considered such places as Argentina, Uganda, and Texas,[5] they eventually settled on Palestine for the location of their proposed Jewish State, even though Palestine was already inhabited by a population that was 95 percent Muslims and Christians, who owned 99 percent of the land.[6] As numerous Zionist diary entries, letters, and other documents show, Zionists planned to push out these non-Jews – financially, if possible; violently if necessary.[7]
Political Zionism in the U.S.
In the 1880s groups advocating the setting up of a Jewish state began popping up around the United States.[8] Emma Lazarus, the poet whose words would adorn the Statue of Liberty, promoted Zionism throughout this decade.[9] A precursor to the Israeli flag was created in Boston in 1891.[10]
In 1887 President Grover Cleveland appointed a Jewish ambassador to Turkey, which at that time controlled Palestine. Jewish historian David G. Dalin reports that presidents recognized the importance of the Turkish embassy for Jewish Americans, “…especially for the growing number of Zionists within the American Jewish electorate, since the Jewish homeland of Palestine remained under the direct control of the Turkish government.”
Every president, both Republican and Democrat, followed this precedent for the next 30 years. “During this era, the ambassadorship to Turkey came to be considered a quasi-Jewish domain,” writes Dalin. [11]
By the early 1890s organizations promoting Zionism existed in New York, Chicago, Baltimore, Milwaukee, Boston, Philadelphia, and Cleveland.[12] Reports from the Zionist World Congress in Basle, which four Americans had attended, gave this movement a major stimulus, galvanizing Zionist activities in American cities that had large Jewish populations.[13]
In 1897-98 numerous additional Zionist societies were founded in the East and the Midwest. In 1898 the first annual conference of American Zionists convened in New York on the 4th of July, where they formed the Federation of American Zionists (FAZ).[14]
By 1910 the number of Zionists in the U.S. approached 20,000 and included lawyers, professors, and businessmen. Even in its infancy, when it was still considered relatively weak, Zionism was becoming a movement to which Congressmen listened, particularly in the eastern cities.[15]
The movement continued to expand, and by 1914 several additional Zionist groups had cropped up. The religious Mizrachi faction was formed in 1903, the Labor party in 1905 and Hadassah, the women’s Zionist organization, in 1912.[16]
By 1922 there were 200,000 Zionists in the U.S. and by 1948 this had grown to almost a million. [17]
From early on Zionists actively pushed their agenda in the media, one Zionist organizer proudly proclaimed in 1912 “the zealous and incessant propaganda which is carried on by countless societies.”[18] The Yiddish press from a very early period espoused the Zionist cause. By 1923 only one New York Yiddish newspaper failed to qualify as Zionist. Yiddish dailies reached 535,000 families in 1927
  • 0

The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.





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