Province unveils options for Massey Tunnel replacement

[inane]

So if we're all in so in debt with such a bleak future, why are we building more roads?

[ronthecivil]

So if we're all in so in debt with such a bleak future, why are we building more roads?

Well if you haven't noticed almost everything has been under the guise of improving our capacity as a port. (Ooh, another way to piss off people is to point out that the port and the railroad was there first and people built their cities around the tracks not other way around).

One would hope it would allow us to up our exports and actually stimulate the economy.

[aGENT]

So if we're all in so in debt with such a bleak future, why are we building more roads?

As Ron pointed out...to combat the very problems caused by economic downturn by creating import/export jobs, dollars etc that drive the economy.

[inane]

Well if you haven't noticed almost everything has been under the guise of improving our capacity as a port. (Ooh, another way to piss off people is to point out that the port and the railroad was there first and people built their cities around the tracks not other way around).

One would hope it would allow us to up our exports and actually stimulate the economy.

So why don't we work on getting cars off the road to improve commercial/port traffic rather than just build more roads that as we know will eventually just fill up and then we have the same problem?

[aGENT]

So why don't we work on getting cars off the road to improve commercial/port traffic rather than just build more roads that as we know will eventually just fill up and then we have the same problem?

Why don't we do both? Improved, safer and more efficient roads that will benefit people and industry PLUS improved transit that will benefit people.

[inane]

As Ron pointed out...to combat the very problems caused by economic downturn by creating import/export jobs, dollars etc that drive the economy.

http://www.cutaactu.ca/en/publicationsandresearch/resources/IssuePaperNo.5_TransitMeansBusiness_TheEconomicCaseforPublicTransitinCanada.pdf

http://www.apta.com/resources/reportsandpublications/documents/economic_impact_of_public_transportation_investment.pdf

http://www.vtpi.org/UMR_critique.pdf

http://www.vtpi.org/tranben.pdf

[ronthecivil]

So why don't we work on getting cars off the road to improve commercial/port traffic rather than just build more roads that as we know will eventually just fill up and then we have the same problem?

As it turns out they also stimulate the economy. Heck, look at translink, the whole goal of having people drive less recently bit them in the *** when it actually happened and they took a hit to gas tax revenue.

I won't deny you get benefit from doing rapid transit as well but unless you find a way to fund it as lucrative as the toll they put on the Port Mann and will be sure to put on the tunnel (and soon the entire South Fraser screenline) then you just chasing the same circle.

Heck, recently the mayors council decided that they aren't even going to contribute their portion of municipal taxes to translink that was already going there! Now that's some solid "someone else should pay" leadership at it's finest!

In other words, things aren't looking good for operation transit. Maybe you should put in a toll!

[ronthecivil]

Why don't we do both? Improved, safer and more efficient roads that will benefit people and industry PLUS improved transit that will benefit people.

That would require compromise from the political (pavement politics exists as a concept for a reason), financial (hence the tolls on the latest projects), and ideological (who claim any road project just makes transit less successful) parties at all three levels of government. (Like say improving the crossings along the south fraser and using the toll profits to fund transit hint hint).

So in other words a snowballs chance in hell. Ideological fights the roads, financial pulls the funding, and political announces a road project with a toll on it just in time for the election.

Even the NDP are on THAT program. Even they aren't THAT stupid.

[inane]

As it turns out they also stimulate the economy. Heck, look at translink, the whole goal of having people drive less recently bit them in the *** when it actually happened and they took a hit to gas tax revenue.

I won't deny you get benefit from doing rapid transit as well but unless you find a way to fund it as lucrative as the toll they put on the Port Mann and will be sure to put on the tunnel (and soon the entire South Fraser screenline) then you just chasing the same circle.

Heck, recently the mayors council decided that they aren't even going to contribute their portion of municipal taxes to translink that was already going there! Now that's some solid "someone else should pay" leadership at it's finest!

In other words, things aren't looking good for operation transit. Maybe you should put in a toll!

Take the time to read this and then talk to me about efficiency, equity, accessbility, etc.

http://www.vtpi.org/tca/tca11.pdf'>http://www.vtpi.org/tca/tca11.pdf

Which is the conclusion/summary of

http://www.vtpi.org/tca/

[ronthecivil]

Take the time to read this and then talk to me about efficiency, equity, accessbility, etc.

http://www.vtpi.org/tca/tca11.pdf

Which is the conclusion/summary of

http://www.vtpi.org/tca/

Tax drivers to pay for transit. How novel an idea. You will not that my compromise plan does just that in addition to making drivers pay for the facility.

The whole concept that you simply need to educate the public that they are not paying the full cost of driving will not win you a lot of political battles. Not that you understand that concept. Try listening to CKNW and listen to callers loosing their minds at how much they are already being taxed to drive their vehicles.

I would say there's merit in a parking tax if it's done properly (specifically as part of an almost entire deregulation of parking bylaws) but it would have significant opposition from merchants who will (rightly) point out that it just increases their already high costs and make it harder to compete with a population that has easy access to cheap cross border shopping.

[inane]

Tax drivers to pay for transit. How novel an idea. You will not that my compromise plan does just that in addition to making drivers pay for the facility.

The whole concept that you simply need to educate the public that they are not paying the full cost of driving will not win you a lot of political battles. Not that you understand that concept. Try listening to CKNW and listen to callers loosing their minds at how much they are already being taxed to drive their vehicles.

I would say there's merit in a parking tax if it's done properly (specifically as part of an almost entire deregulation of parking bylaws) but it would have significant opposition from merchants who will (rightly) point out that it just increases their already high costs and make it harder to compete with a population that has easy access to cheap cross border shopping.

If that's what you got from obviously not even reading most of that, then whatever.

I could show you all the evidence in the world that driving is subsidized far more than transit, the social, economic, ethical, environmental costs of auto and auto-culture costs us billions, etc...but it doesn't matter.

Car is king. Until we are forced to make a decision we won't. That's my problem with the current situation. We pretend like we give a frack about transit, about the environment, etc... Let's call a spade a spade. We don't. So frack it, let's have fun. Won't be my problem in the future.

[ronthecivil]

If that's what you got from obviously not even reading most of that, then whatever.

I could show you all the evidence in the world that driving is subsidized far more than transit, the social, economic, ethical, environmental costs of auto and auto-culture costs us billions, etc...but it doesn't matter.

Car is king. Until we are forced to make a decision we won't. That's my problem with the current situation. We pretend like we give a frack about transit, about the environment, etc... Let's call a spade a spade. We don't. So frack it, let's have fun. Won't be my problem in the future.

Now you're being a realist!

I would concentrate on following the money from the ever increasing number of toll roads if you want to find a way to improve transit.

But your right. People don't care about transit or the environment. As least as long as it doesn't inconvenience them personally. Stopping a pipeline (in vain FYI) is one thing, but getting people out of their houses and into a bus or train with the plebians isn't going to happen. Not for the majority at least, and not without a low cost fast alternative already in place.

[inane]

Now you're being a realist!

I would concentrate on following the money from the ever increasing number of toll roads if you want to find a way to improve transit.

But your right. People don't care about transit or the environment. As least as long as it doesn't inconvenience them personally. Stopping a pipeline (in vain FYI) is one thing, but getting people out of their houses and into a bus or train with the plebians isn't going to happen. Not for the majority at least, and not without a low cost fast alternative already in place.

So let's stop pretending. Stop wasting money. Build the pipelines, pave burns bog, subsidize the crap out of gas. Let's ???? party and screw it.

Think the politicians will go for that?

[ronthecivil]

So let's stop pretending. Stop wasting money. Build the pipelines, pave burns bog, subsidize the crap out of gas. Let's ???? party and screw it.

Think the politicians will go for that?

Depends if it is enough to pay for healthcare.

Gas is actually highly taxed FYI. Not sure where you get that.

You can expect pipelines, the bog to stay as is, increasing gas taxes, not so many parties, and a very very expensive health care system.

[inane]

Depends if it is enough to pay for healthcare.

Gas is actually highly taxed FYI. Not sure where you get that.

You can expect pipelines, the bog to stay as is, increasing gas taxes, not so many parties, and a very very expensive health care system.

Gas is one part of driving, driving is subsidized to the tits.

Why keep the bog though? If we're just going to encircle it with roads, we might as well put it to good use. Same with the ALR, if we're going to be short sighted, we might as well go whole hog. Let's stop pretending we give a frack.

[ronthecivil]

Gas is one part of driving, driving is subsidized to the tits.

Why keep the bog though? If we're just going to encircle it with roads, we might as well put it to good use. Same with the ALR, if we're going to be short sighted, we might as well go whole hog. Let's stop pretending we give a frack.

The bog is a crappy place to build anything. Why do you suppose nothing got built there? The old timey, lake draining (Vedder), creek filling (false creek is half the size it was) population had an enlightened moment of ecological preservation?

P.S. Pretending to care is key if you don't want to piss people off. Never going to get elected without pretending to care. If you don't you get labelled "arrogant"......

[inane]

The bog is a crappy place to build anything. Why do you suppose nothing got built there? The old timey, lake draining (Vedder), creek filling (false creek is half the size it was) population had an enlightened moment of ecological preservation?

P.S. Pretending to care is key if you don't want to piss people off. Never going to get elected without pretending to care. If you don't you get labelled "arrogant"......

Hey we can engineer anything, who cares how much it costs.

[aGENT]

Gas is one part of driving, driving is subsidized to the tits.

Why keep the bog though? If we're just going to encircle it with roads, we might as well put it to good use. Same with the ALR, if we're going to be short sighted, we might as well go whole hog. Let's stop pretending we give a frack.

Well I'm sure pouting and throwing a toddler like tantrum is probably the answer

You act like the GVRD is some monotonous mass of consciousness that evidently (according to you) wants to pave over everything.

It's a diverse area of people of wildly varying backgrounds. Some of those people could care less if we did pave over everything, some want to tear up paved areas and restore them to their natural glory. Some lie somewhere between those two extremes. They all get to vote and pay taxes. THAT is the reality.

Until you realize that all of us (and especially politicians courting those votes) have to work within that framework of reality, you will continue to bang your head against this wall of futility.

There's a reason the term "baby steps" was invented. Sure I'd love to wake up tomorrow to some modern utopian version of the GVRD with seemless transit for all and clean air, green spaces and low footprint living all around us. The reality is that it's going to be a long, convoluted road to that destination. So rather than being frustrated with not being there, why don't you concentrate on what small steps we can take now to get us down that road faster and in a less convoluted manner?

[ronthecivil]

Hey we can engineer anything, who cares how much it costs.

People might not care about the environment but they really care how much it costs.

Obsessively.

[ronthecivil]

Well I'm sure pouting and throwing a toddler like tantrum is probably the answer

You act like the GVRD is some monotonous mass of consciousness that evidently (according to you) wants to pave over everything.

It's a diverse area of people of wildly varying backgrounds. Some of those people could care less if we did pave over everything, some want to tear up paved areas and restore them to their natural glory. Some lie somewhere between those two extremes. They all get to vote and pay taxes. THAT is the reality.

Until you realize that all of us (and especially politicians courting those votes) have to work within that framework of reality, you will continue to bang your head against this wall of futility.

There's a reason the term "baby steps" was invented. Sure I'd love to wake up tomorrow to some modern utopian version of the GVRD with seemless transit for all and clean air, green spaces and low footprint living all around us. The reality is that it's going to be a long, convoluted road to that destination. So rather than being frustrated with not being there, why don't you concentrate on what small steps we can take now to get us down that road faster and less convoluted.

What I find funny is that my plan I put out is really only different from the things he cites where tolling existing road users is considered ideal is that I simply want to build new toll roads/bridges that do the exact same thing.

That's exactly what's going to happen the only sad thing is that the tolls will end up going to general revenue (read healthcare monster eating up every other program budget) instead of going to transit.

If the greens went after the revenue instead of trying to stop the projects that are going to happen anyways they might have their funding solution but instead it's sticking to oppose all projects and toll existing facilities like it would ever actually happen.