Province unveils options for Massey Tunnel replacement

[ronthecivil]

Before we go ahead with the Tunnel replacement, might I suggest this is a good time to figure out where all these highways and roads lead to?

Downtown Vancouver. Meanwhile, the mayor of Vancouver has dumped a proposed streetcar idea, and wants bike lanes not roads. They are even planning on removing the Georgia Viaduct.

So what's the point of having more traffic heading into town, when there is no where to go because all the major roads are clogged up as it stands?

Honestly the only solutions I see, is an integrated rail network, and underground (and hopefully earthquake proof) tunnels having highways and rail under the city. With strategic exit and entry points all over the city. Vancouver planners screwed up big time in the 50's and 60's by not planning ahead.

Then again that's always BC's problem isn't it? We never think ahead. We need a 4 lane road. Government builds a 4 lane road. They don't build a 6 lane road with wide lanes so it can expand to 8 lanes in the future. No....that would cost too much or "gasp" make sense.

That's where all the roads (and transit) go. It's not where all the people are going. The people are going suburb to suburb. Downtown is increasingly it's own island.

[aGENT]

I sure hope they upgrade to address the nightmare that is the Steveston Highway entrance heading South. With the God awful development they're plunking right at 5 & Steveston, can't imagine the extra traffic that'll be involved in that area.

When there's an accident, it shuts things down. Recently made the mistake of taking Steveston Highway west from No. 6 Road on my way home from work....accident on the overpass meant we were lined up on that short stretch back to Riverport for over well over an hour without moving. No way out/back, as things also clogged up on 6 Road and alternate routes with people pulling u-turns. I left work in Richmond at 5 and got home (in Richmond) at 7:30.

I'd hate to think if there was an earthquake/tsunami warning and evacuation to higher ground ordered. Would be chaos.

I agree. It looks like the same overpass and exits etc. It should help that the tunnel (or bridge) will be less of a bottleneck so traffic can more easily flow in to it but Steveston and 5/6 Road are a freaking mess of congestion morning and night.

[ronthecivil]

I agree. It looks like the same overpass and exits etc. It should help that the tunnel (or bridge) will be less of a bottleneck so traffic can more easily flow in to it but Steveston and 5/6 Road are a freaking mess of congestion morning and night.

In addtion to the bridge itself they are looking at the entire route 99 from the border to probably the Oak street bridge including all the interchanges.

[avelanch]

they need more crossings, not just a couple big ones. you have to split up that traffic to reduce congestion.. I'm all for option #5 as it makes the most sense. the mayor of richmond sounds like an idiot in his retort.

[inane]

I agree. It looks like the same overpass and exits etc. It should help that the tunnel (or bridge) will be less of a bottleneck so traffic can more easily flow in to it but Steveston and 5/6 Road are a freaking mess of congestion morning and night.

In addtion to the bridge itself they are looking at the entire route 99 from the border to probably the Oak street bridge including all the interchanges.

Yeah, don't worry JR. The tunnel replacement doesn't just mean a new bridge. It means all sorts of other widening and works. But wait! I thought we had no money Ron? How could we possible be investing so much money into road widening, interchange expansion, etc etc etc if there's no money?

[avelanch]

Yeah, don't worry JR. The tunnel replacement doesn't just mean a new bridge. It means all sorts of other widening and works. But wait! I thought we had no money Ron? How could we possible be investing so much money into road widening, interchange expansion, etc etc etc if there's no money?

tolls.

[inane]

tolls.

Oh right! The toll savior. Just like they tolled Hwy 1 to pay for expanding out to Langley right? Or the expansion in Burnaby that is now tolled?

[aGENT]

Oh right! The toll savior. Just like they tolled Hwy 1 to pay for expanding out to Langley right? Or the expansion in Burnaby that is now tolled?

Port Mann.

[aGENT]

In addtion to the bridge itself they are looking at the entire route 99 from the border to probably the Oak street bridge including all the interchanges.

I don't even know where they'd begin to improve the Steveston interchange area...It's a MESS. And as Deb eluded, is going to get worse with that huge development on the old Vanderzalm gardens.

I suppose that's why guys like you have jobs though

[inane]

Port Mann.

Nope. The toll is for the bridge. All that widening is/was built with this money we apparently don't have.

[ronthecivil]

Yeah, don't worry JR. The tunnel replacement doesn't just mean a new bridge. It means all sorts of other widening and works. But wait! I thought we had no money Ron? How could we possible be investing so much money into road widening, interchange expansion, etc etc etc if there's no money?

At existing traffic volumes with a 5% discount rate and a three dollar toll you can support a 1.8 billion dollar budget. The government gets better rates than that and it's unlikely volumes will drop or that tolls stay the same throughout the life of the bridge.

If the government is the financier it's a net increase in government revenue.

[ronthecivil]

Nope. The toll is for the bridge. All that widening is/was built with this money we apparently don't have.

And if one does the math for the Port Mann which has much higher traffic volumes than the Massey Tunnel you would find that it easily supports the entire 3 billion dollar project with profit to spare. A very silver lining to the inability to come up with financing at the height of the 2008 financial crisis.

[aGENT]

Nope. The toll is for the bridge. All that widening is/was built with this money we apparently don't have.

Nope. The Toll is for the "project". (Well that and health care.)

The bridge is just the shiny "face" of it/location of the toll.

[inane]

And if one does the math for the Port Mann which has much higher traffic volumes than the Massey Tunnel you would find that it easily supports the entire 3 billion dollar project with profit to spare. A very silver lining to the inability to come up with financing at the height of the 2008 financial crisis.

Oh where is this math?? A profit!

Surely you see my point Ron. There's money for Hwy 1. There's money for the Port Mann. There's money for the SFPR. There's money for Sea to Sky. There's money for Golden Ears. There's now money for Hwy 99 and the Tunnel replacement.

Your point that there's no money is bs. It's how we choose to spend it. And btw, no referendum for any of that.

[aGENT]

Oh where is this math?? A profit!

Surely you see my point Ron. There's money for Hwy 1. There's money for the Port Mann. There's money for the SFPR. There's money for Sea to Sky. There's money for Golden Ears. There's now money for Hwy 99 and the Tunnel replacement.

Your point that there's no money is bs. It's how we choose to spend it. And btw, no referendum for any of that.

I think more to the point is that tolled projects create revenue. Transit projects drain revenue. They both cost money we don't have but which sounds like the better option to your wallet...?

Transit makes sense from a societal view, not a budget or appeasing the electorate one. THAT is the problem you need to figure out the solution for Inane.

[inane]

I think more to the point is that tolled projects create revenue. Transit projects drain revenue. They both cost money we don't have but which sounds like the better option to your wallet...?

Transit makes sense from a societal view, not a budget or appeasing the electorate one. THAT is the problem you need to figure out the solution for Inane.

Tolled projects might create revenue 30 years from now. In the mean time they pay down the debt you've just paved.

Transit itself doesn't make money. It generates wealth. Look at the most recent stats on new office towers/business parks. Residential property values. Etc etc etc.

Regardless, you cannot just ignore the societal, health, land use and other factors when determining in what to invest. That's the problem with this government. There's no plan. There's no vision.

[ronthecivil]

Oh where is this math?? A profit!

Surely you see my point Ron. There's money for Hwy 1. There's money for the Port Mann. There's money for the SFPR. There's money for Sea to Sky. There's money for Golden Ears. There's now money for Hwy 99 and the Tunnel replacement.

Your point that there's no money is bs. It's how we choose to spend it. And btw, no referendum for any of that.

The math is on my calculator. You take the number of people that use the bridge, times the number of days in a year, times the projected toll, and that's your yearly revenue. You then figure out how much debt that can support at a chosen interest rate. Using that gives you a total breakeven project cost. It's how financing works. You should educate yourself on the matter instead of your usual rhetoric as debating math is pretty pointless.

[inane]

The math is on my calculator. You take the number of people that use the bridge, times the number of days in a year, times the projected toll, and that's your yearly revenue. You then figure out how much debt that can support at a chosen interest rate. Using that gives you a total breakeven project cost. It's how financing works. You should educate yourself on the matter instead of your usual rhetoric as debating math is pretty pointless.

Your 'math' is full of assumptions that I question.

[ronthecivil]

Tolled projects might create revenue 30 years from now. In the mean time they pay down the debt you've just paved.

Transit itself doesn't make money. It generates wealth. Look at the most recent stats on new office towers/business parks. Residential property values. Etc etc etc.

Regardless, you cannot just ignore the societal, health, land use and other factors when determining in what to invest. That's the problem with this government. There's no plan. There's no vision.

Breakeven at the start with profits down the road and a shiny new road. And you wonder why government pursue this?

You CAN just ignore the societal, health, land use, and other factors when determining in what to invest. What you CAN'T ignore is either the fiscal or political considirations. The new brigde has those in spades which is why it's what happens and what you harp on about remains in fantasy land.

[ronthecivil]

Your 'math' is full of assumptions that I question.

Of course it is. You have to make assumptions. By all means do your own revenue projections with your own traffic volumes and your own toll costs and your own interest rates. I would say my traffic volumes, being the existing ones, have but one way to go. I would say the toll costs being made the same as the Port Mann are conservative, and destined to grow over time (inflation is awesome for debt financed projects). Interest rates will also go up over time but 5% for a government is VERY conservative and I would be shocked if they couldn't get locked into 20 years bonds to finance it.

But again, by all means, determine your own assumptions for those variable. Rember though, banks and investors don't care for fantasy land numbers, they tend to want them to be based on SOMETHING.