The Official Transit Thread

[old_time_hockey]

It's good no matter what your political views. If your a lefty, now the people will be reaping in the tolls. If your a righty, good news, construction is going ahead despite the banking turmoil.

It is ALWAYS a good deal to keep infrastructure public. Why should BC tax payers be locked into long term contracts that part of their tax money went to support to then be tolled by a private company that will probably take those profits out of the region rather than reinvesting into the region and the tax payers.

[ronthecivil]

It is ALWAYS a good deal to keep infrastructure public. Why should BC tax payers be locked into long term contracts that part of their tax money went to support to then be tolled by a private company that will probably take those profits out of the region rather than reinvesting into the region and the tax payers.

Because some times you can get a better deal. And you don't have to go two billion dollars into debt. Not that I mind they didn't find a better deal and are choosing to go into debt, they will make a lot of money on the tolls. Not surprised that the goverment is taking on the risk though, as they are the most likely cause of a risk to toll revenues. (For example, building a six lane free putello, extending skytrain to langley, heck making skytrain free, etc. etc. etc.).

[Captain Bob]

God I hate that B-Line,

I can't wait until the train is in to take to the Lion's games.

[ronthecivil]

The only reason why a private company gets involved in these projects is that they stand to profit off our backs for years and years. At least the money goes to back to the government and not to the hands of some private company.

The reason they get to profit is they take all the risks too. Now the risk is with the province, though only the tolling risk. That said, if the construction budget goes bankrupt and the contractor declares bankruptcy with it half done, well, there is some construction risk too.

[inane]

Because some times you can get a better deal. And you don't have to go two billion dollars into debt. Not that I mind they didn't find a better deal and are choosing to go into debt, they will make a lot of money on the tolls. Not surprised that the goverment is taking on the risk though, as they are the most likely cause of a risk to toll revenues. (For example, building a six lane free putello, extending skytrain to langley, heck making skytrain free, etc. etc. etc.).

I don't want my government looking for 'the best deal' at the expense of the public. If you want your government run like a corporation--you're crazy.

Public assets should be public. Roads, bridges, water, power, ferries, etc... Selling these things off for short term cash is lunacy.

[ronthecivil]

I don't want my government looking for 'the best deal' at the expense of the public. If you want your government run like a corporation--you're crazy.

Public assets should be public. Roads, bridges, water, power, ferries, etc... Selling these things off for short term cash is lunacy.

Uh, the whole reason for getting the best deal is to lower the public expense. Sometimes that's not possible. So they funded it themselves. So be it.

I don't want my goverment refusing to look at options that can lower risk and cost to taxpayers. If you want your government running a socalist utupia, you're crazy.

One would think that a two billion dollar increase in cost would cause more concern but I guess not!

[inane]

Uh, the whole reason for getting the best deal is to lower the public expense. Sometimes that's not possible. So they funded it themselves. So be it.

I don't want my goverment refusing to look at options that can lower risk and cost to taxpayers. If you want your government running a socalist utupia, you're crazy.

One would think that a two billion dollar increase in cost would cause more concern but I guess not!

Never said I want a 'socialist utopia', whatever you think that is.

What's 2 more billion dollars--we're all allowing these clowns in government to steal from us daily anyway. Olympics, ferries, bridges, highways, airports, etc... They all start at x amount of dollars and goes up exponentially from there. Why do any of us believe anything these guys have to say?

Yet we happily vote them in over and over and over thinking it will be different. Wake up!

[Violator]

Uh, the whole reason for getting the best deal is to lower the public expense. Sometimes that's not possible. So they funded it themselves. So be it.

I don't want my goverment refusing to look at options that can lower risk and cost to taxpayers. If you want your government running a socalist utupia, you're crazy.

One would think that a two billion dollar increase in cost would cause more concern but I guess not!

Depends who you are dealing with.

[ronthecivil]

Never said I want a 'socialist utopia', whatever you think that is.

What's 2 more billion dollars--we're all allowing these clowns in government to steal from us daily anyway. Olympics, ferries, bridges, highways, airports, etc... They all start at x amount of dollars and goes up exponentially from there. Why do any of us believe anything these guys have to say?

Yet we happily vote them in over and over and over thinking it will be different. Wake up!

Actually, almost all projects of those nature come in on budget, it's just that you only hear about it when it goes over. And regardless of who you vote in (you could vote in an all star team of chartered accountants if you want) some projects will go over budget. That's just how things work.

[inane]

Actually, almost all projects of those nature come in on budget, it's just that you only hear about it when it goes over. And regardless of who you vote in (you could vote in an all star team of chartered accountants if you want) some projects will go over budget. That's just how things work.

Ummm, Olympics? Ferries? South Fraser Perimeter Road? I could go on....

[nitronuts]

Haha, this post couldn't be more ignorant of facts and real life.

We need more transit!

But I don't understand why the new skytrain stops need such big entrances? Why not have staircases that integrate into the block like NYC, Paris, Seoul, and most other major metros. Why the need for these big glass structures?

You have to consider that NYC, Paris, Seoul, etc. are quite dense and would require smaller and many more entrances located within the sidewalk. Also note that their systems are from a much older design era.

Here, and particularly with the Vancouver City Centre Station street level entrance the key is to make it a prominent feature as it is the main access to the station. There's a large staircase and two escalators. And it for sure has much to do with aesthetics, not sure why you would be against that.

Canada Line's Waterfront Station has a smaller street level entrance.

[inane]

You have to consider that NYC, Paris, Seoul, etc. are quite dense and would require smaller and many more entrances located within the sidewalk. Also note that their systems are from a much older design era.

Here, and particularly with the Vancouver City Centre Station street level entrance the key is to make it a prominent feature as it is the main access to the station. There's a large staircase and two escalators. And it for sure has much to do with aesthetics, not sure why you would be against that.

Canada Line's Waterfront Station has a smaller street level entrance.

I am very aware they are from an 'older design era'--that's my point. Look at the big above ground expo 86 stations, the are ugly as hell but were cool and new back in 86.

Urban design is returning back to the older era, pre automobile and sprawl. Skytrain stations should reflect that. For the same money as these big, glass above ground entrances, you could get 2-3 staircase entrances on difference corners allowing for growth in the future.

[nitronuts]

I don't want my government looking for 'the best deal' at the expense of the public. If you want your government run like a corporation--you're crazy.

Public assets should be public. Roads, bridges, water, power, ferries, etc... Selling these things off for short term cash is lunacy.

Selling public assets for short-term cash is certainly lunacy, but there is nothing wrong with a public-private project with the private sector serving to design/build/operate infrastructure and in many cases it works out for the best.

[ronthecivil]

Ummm, Olympics? Ferries? South Fraser Perimeter Road? I could go on....

I didn't know South Fraser had a budget to go over yet. They haven't even built it yet.

Security at the Olympics, and the fast ferries went over. Almost everything else (venues) went fine, and the new ferries are not over budget as far as I know.

And there are hundreds of projects being built all the time. For a bit there things were hairy due to increasing construction costs due to the labour shortage but that should slow down a bit.

One thing that most projects that go over have in common though is too much input from people that don't know what they are doing, aka politicians. See for example the fast ferries, the convention centre, and the king of the all the olympic village.

[ronthecivil]

I am very aware they are from an 'older design era'--that's my point. Look at the big above ground expo 86 stations, the are ugly as hell but were cool and new back in 86.

Urban design is returning back to the older era, pre automobile and sprawl. Skytrain stations should reflect that. For the same money as these big, glass above ground entrances, you could get 2-3 staircase entrances on difference corners allowing for growth in the future.

Wouldn't it feel much less safe going into a small hidden staircase than a big lit plaza? Not that I am opposed to a general movement to an older era version of urban design.

[nitronuts]

Ummm, Olympics? Ferries? South Fraser Perimeter Road? I could go on....

Olympics: between the day a city is awarded the Games and the day it hosts its opening ceremony, there is a seven year span. Do you really think that things wouldn't change? The economic climate, the political climate, etc.

Ferries: the fast ferries were just a terrible design and a poorly managed project.

South Fraser Perimeter Road: consider that preliminary designs and cost estimates were first made in early-2004 for all of the Gateway projects, and to this day the only Gateway project seeing construction is the new Pitt River Bridge and just two weeks ago, the new Port Mann. Again, things change in five years.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be....

[nitronuts]

Urban design is returning back to the older era, pre automobile and sprawl. Skytrain stations should reflect that. For the same money as these big, glass above ground entrances, you could get 2-3 staircase entrances on difference corners allowing for growth in the future.

Well, it also has to do with cost. Consider that the Canada Line was already running on a very tight budget with only the absolute minimum being built.

And with regards to the Canada Line's Vancouver City Centre Station, the station allows for a second future street-level entrance to be built near Robson. Oakridge-41st Station and Broadway-City Hall stations are also designed to allow for future secondary stations.

Multiple station entrances are also only useful if there is enough demand for them, otherwise you will only be creating security problems with station halls hardly "watched"....you'd have no problem with 10 or even 20 station entrances in Hong Kong's MTR or London's Underground. It counters the Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design's pillar of controlled access.

Edited March 2, 2009 by nitronuts

[inane]

Olympics: between the day a city is awarded the Games and the day it hosts its opening ceremony, there is a seven year span. Do you really think that things wouldn't change? The economic climate, the political climate, etc.

Ferries: the fast ferries were just a terrible design and a poorly managed project.

South Fraser Perimeter Road: consider that preliminary designs and cost estimates were first made in early-2004 for all of the Gateway projects, and to this day the only Gateway project seeing construction is the new Pitt River Bridge and just two weeks ago, the new Port Mann. Again, things change in five years.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be....

Never said it was simple.

Olympics--Do you want people running the Olympics that don't consider the fact that there is a 7 year span and therefore need to think about the things you mentioned? I sure don't, but apparently that's what we got.

SFPR--The whole logic behind it was premised on 80 cent gas, so it's based on a lie. And I will bet anyone this project goes over budget. Any takers?

[old_time_hockey]

I didn't know South Fraser had a budget to go over yet. They haven't even built it yet.

Security at the Olympics, and the fast ferries went over. Almost everything else (venues) went fine, and the new ferries are not over budget as far as I know.

And there are hundreds of projects being built all the time. For a bit there things were hairy due to increasing construction costs due to the labour shortage but that should slow down a bit.

One thing that most projects that go over have in common though is too much input from people that don't know what they are doing, aka politicians. See for example the fast ferries, the convention centre, and the king of the all the olympic village.

Well the new ferries have problems that aren't covered by warrenty because the ships were built 100% to customer spec. So where is the money going to come from to fix them?

[nitronuts]

Never said it was simple.

Olympics--Do you want people running the Olympics that don't consider the fact that there is a 7 year span and therefore need to think about the things you mentioned? I sure don't, but apparently that's what we got.

That happens for every Olympics, every bid committee/organizing committee does that. They are required by the IOC to create proposals based on the present year (7 years before the Games), and they simply do not have enough resources to look into a 7-year change.

Few people would acknowledge it locally, but internationally VANOC is one of the most soundest and well-run Olympic organizing committees in decades. You haven't seen disaster until you've seen Salt Lake, Athens, Torino, and Beijing.

SFPR--The whole logic behind it was premised on 80 cent gas, so it's based on a lie. And I will bet anyone this project goes over budget. Any takers?

I could care less if it goes overbudget. It's certainly a much needed piece of infrastrucutre this region needs, and especially with increasing port traffic from Deltaport expansions.