The Official Transit Thread

[inane]

But the market would support density. In fact I think the market is begging for it.

Well I guess we need to clarify where we're talking about (Van or Langley or somewhere in between) but if the market were begging for it, that's what developers would be building, not single family.

[aGENT]

Well I guess we need to clarify where we're talking about (Van or Langley or somewhere in between) but if the market were begging for it, that's what developers would be building, not single family.

Not if they can't get it zoned....

Or have you missed all the crying about affordable housing, youth/working families priced out of the market etc?

Sure lot's of people want a yard etc but there's a huge demand for affordable housing near transit as well.

[inane]

Not if they can't get it zoned....

Or have you missed all the crying about affordable housing, youth/working families priced out of the market etc?

Sure lot's of people want a yard etc but there's a huge demand for affordable housing near transit as well.

Who is doing the crying? Developers aren't in the business of providing affordable housing, they are in the business of providing housing at a rate that gets them the most profit. They build what gets them the most money. End of story.

Rezonings happen all over the place, look at the Cambie plan--they're rezoning the entire stretch at once.

[ronthecivil]

Who is doing the crying? Developers aren't in the business of providing affordable housing, they are in the business of providing housing at a rate that gets them the most profit. They build what gets them the most money. End of story.

Rezonings happen all over the place, look at the Cambie plan--they're rezoning the entire stretch at once.

Ya but not nearly to enough density (well except at Marine).

At the top of the hill where there would be now views being obscured near 41st to QE park they should be making a second west end type density/second downtown. For every housing/working spot not provided in the city centre it simply means another out in the sprawl since people need to live/work somewhere and given the prices even with the spread we don't have enough supply right now.

And if you did that? What would we need to provide transporation? Not much more than buying some more RAV line cars.

[aGENT]

Who is doing the crying? Developers aren't in the business of providing affordable housing, they are in the business of providing housing at a rate that gets them the most profit. They build what gets them the most money. End of story.

Rezonings happen all over the place, look at the Cambie plan--they're rezoning the entire stretch at once.

If you can sell three $1.5m homes or say 80 $250000 units, what sounds more profitable? They'd build it if they were aloud.

[inane]

Ya but not nearly to enough density (well except at Marine).

At the top of the hill where there would be now views being obscured near 41st to QE park they should be making a second west end type density/second downtown. For every housing/working spot not provided in the city centre it simply means another out in the sprawl since people need to live/work somewhere and given the prices even with the spread we don't have enough supply right now.

And if you did that? What would we need to provide transporation? Not much more than buying some more RAV line cars.

it's potentially 6 stories the entire stetch with higher densities at marine and 41st and 49th and king ed. that's pretty dense given the existing character. and there's the whole phase 3 for the block off cambie that will undoubtably add even more density. the point was you guys keep bringing up this weird argument that the city isn't densifying when it's happening all over the place.

[inane]

If you can sell three $1.5m homes or say 80 $250000 units, what sounds more profitable? They'd build it if they were aloud.

It's not that simple. I really hope you don't think it's that simple.

[The Situation]

Have they ever considered removing the parking on Broadway? There would definitely be backlash from store owners but imagine how much it would relieve congestion along Broadway.

[Common sense]

Have they ever considered removing the parking on Broadway? There would definitely be backlash from store owners but imagine how much it would relieve congestion along Broadway.

please don't get Ron and me started on that issue...

[ronthecivil]

it's potentially 6 stories the entire stetch with higher densities at marine and 41st and 49th and king ed. that's pretty dense given the existing character. and there's the whole phase 3 for the block off cambie that will undoubtably add even more density. the point was you guys keep bringing up this weird argument that the city isn't densifying when it's happening all over the place.

It's densifying but it's still one of the slowest growing cities in a region that is experiencing population growth and could thus add much more density.

Burnaby puts up towers next to skytrain stations all the time and it's not the end of the world what the hell is wrong with Vancouver?

When I say densify I mean double the population of the city of Vancouver and that will lower demand in the valley and make transit much more viable. Everything within 400m of a skytrain station should be high density mixed use (towers) while things withing 800m should be the medium density stuff that goes up to about six stories. That would still leave the overwhelming majority of city low density residential but allow for many many more residents and jobs and business making for a vibrant city. And you wouldn't need to do much at all to keep the traffic moving since most of the trips would be walking and transit on existing facilities.

[OldSchooler]

Going with express buses that replicate the proposed transit lines like the 97,98,99 Blines is a great phase 0.5 project to help build demand and at worst case a bandaid but as the 99 bline will show you it can be much better than that (the 99 blines 100k passengers a day are an envy of light rail lines around the world showing that it's all about how the community is built rather than the transportation mode per se).

It is unfortunate that the B-Lines didn't get a chance to be exposed for what they really are: efficient and cost-effective "rapid transit". And to think of the dollars spent on the road improvements in Richmond to accommodate the B-Line. But you can't bait the Olympics without a large lure....

Anyways, one difference is that Surrey is not Vancouver. You have not only high densities and land use that is established, but a downtown core with secondary "economic cores" along the route in Vancouver. It is THE destination. Not so in Surrey, but that's the plan to change it. And it's more than just servicing one travel purpose (work) but other purposes as well. And so when you design these systems, you have to think of the many dimensions of travel demand that ultimately result in sustained ridership over the day.

[OldSchooler]

If you look at the previous planning of the Evergreen Line, there were many viable solutions developed, however the Province wants SkyTrain, for obvious reasons. But given that there is inadequate funding, what needs to be done is reduce the price tag. In other words, forget the Porsche and settle for the Toyota. They will all generate the same number of net increase in riders. Definitely not as 'sexy' but it'll get you from A to B just like a good transportation system is a means to an end.

[ronthecivil]

If you look at the previous planning of the Evergreen Line, there were many viable solutions developed, however the Province wants SkyTrain, for obvious reasons. But given that there is inadequate funding, what needs to be done is reduce the price tag. In other words, forget the Porsche and settle for the Toyota. They will all generate the same number of net increase in riders. Definitely not as 'sexy' but it'll get you from A to B just like a good transportation system is a means to an end.

That's why I suggest just building it out to Port Moody station for now as it will at least provide a connection to West Coast Express.

[nitronuts]

^ Precisely.

I'd much rather see them shorten the Evergreen Line, phase the route and build whatever they can for $800-million.

[OldSchooler]

That's why I suggest just building it out to Port Moody station for now as it will at least provide a connection to West Coast Express.

The problem/opportunity with this line is that the WCE competes with it for ridership. That's why you need to consider net total ridership increase for the whole corridor. Previous studies show this so connecting to just the WCE would not do much--if you get a bunch of riders on the new line, but loose the same number on WCE, then it would be just a waste of money.

The major destination/origin is the Coquitlam city centre so it has to go here. It's better to have a complete line with the quality of a Chevy than an incomplete line with the quality of a Mercedes. There just is not enough demand now and in the next 20-30 years to really make the most out of an expensive high-capacity line in this part of the region. What is needed here is a mid-capacity line that is affordable. Trying to get this perfect will never happen, so they need to put in a "sub-optimal" technology that instead fits "perfectly".

But when you grow up having been driven in a Mercedes all your childhood, you feel like you deserve similar when you are older. We have been spoiled with a technology that is not financially sustainable, politically built for a world expo - very expensive for the capacity per km. It's a great system, don't get me wrong, especially when mom and dad government pay for most of it. But they can only dole out so much more $ out west now that we're post-olympics. We need to eventually stand on our own feet and live within our means.

Now if you're in the UAE, then it's not such an issue where they have gold-plated highway tunnels...

[ronthecivil]

The problem/opportunity with this line is that the WCE competes with it for ridership. That's why you need to consider net total ridership increase for the whole corridor. Previous studies show this so connecting to just the WCE would not do much--if you get a bunch of riders on the new line, but loose the same number on WCE, then it would be just a waste of money.

The major destination/origin is the Coquitlam city centre so it has to go here. It's better to have a complete line with the quality of a Chevy than an incomplete line with the quality of a Mercedes. There just is not enough demand now and in the next 20-30 years to really make the most out of an expensive high-capacity line in this part of the region. What is needed here is a mid-capacity line that is affordable. Trying to get this perfect will never happen, so they need to put in a "sub-optimal" technology that instead fits "perfectly".

But when you grow up having been driven in a Mercedes all your childhood, you feel like you deserve similar when you are older. We have been spoiled with a technology that is not financially sustainable, politically built for a world expo - very expensive for the capacity per km. It's a great system, don't get me wrong, especially when mom and dad government pay for most of it. But they can only dole out so much more $ out west now that we're post-olympics. We need to eventually stand on our own feet and live within our means.

Now if you're in the UAE, then it's not such an issue where they have gold-plated highway tunnels...

While an extension to Port Moody would take away from WCE riders going to downtown it will increase the number of people that live in Mission etc. that want to go to places like Burnaby and New West since with a direct connection it becomes far more feasible.

And while we could simply build light rail it's not a very good cost benefit ratio type project. I would rather just build things right (like skytrain) the first time and even if it doesn't go as far every extension brings in a lot more riders

And even people coming from Coquitlam while still having to take the 97 Bline will at least have a much shorter bus ride and never have clark hill snow stop them from making the trip. Also since Port Moody as a lot of dense developement most of the riders of a Port Moody extension will still be there.

And most importantly if we end up with more money later there's no reason you can't expand it further (heck it should ultimately go to Maple Ridge but baby steps as they say.)

[OldSchooler]

While an extension to Port Moody would take away from WCE riders going to downtown it will increase the number of people that live in Mission etc. that want to go to places like Burnaby and New West since with a direct connection it becomes far more feasible.

And while we could simply build light rail it's not a very good cost benefit ratio type project. I would rather just build things right (like skytrain) the first time and even if it doesn't go as far every extension brings in a lot more riders

And even people coming from Coquitlam while still having to take the 97 Bline will at least have a much shorter bus ride and never have clark hill snow stop them from making the trip. Also since Port Moody as a lot of dense developement most of the riders of a Port Moody extension will still be there.

And most importantly if we end up with more money later there's no reason you can't expand it further (heck it should ultimately go to Maple Ridge but baby steps as they say.)

If Mission people want to go to Burnaby or New West they will drive.

I can't see enough of them driving out to WCE, taking the commuter train and then getting off to go on SkyTrain, then get off at one of the stops in Burnaby or New West, and then take a bus to whatever destination they are going to. Sure there are people in Mission without cars who may take such a trip and sure there may be destinations right next to SkyTrain, but it's a very small market in Mission to begin with. And the market for people living within walking distance to the Mission WCE and their destination a walking distance from a SkyTrain station is very tiny in the regional scheme of things.

Same goes for any of the locations out east where the cost of such an expensive system isn't justified by the demands. Anyone still willing to take the above trip basically doesn't have a choice so a B-Line or bus from the WCE PoMo station will have to do. Then it's back on to SkyTrain so really another 5 minute additional time over an hour+ trip wouldn't make a difference. Most like these trips would not be common, and if they were, well these people would have a very cheap perspective of time.

And then you're encouraging urban sprawl if you build these systems past the urban core, as the opponents for WCE were saying back when it was being planned. I'm not sure I agree or disagree, but with the cost of expensive transit systems I don't see a viable business case for lower density communities out East. They do need help but SkyTrain is not the answer until maybe 50 years, in which case density will not be a problem. Not everyone is going downtown but that is what the system's design is vectored towards. What they need are more buses and services that fit their needs. If you do the math, most rapid transit systems are a very hard sell, but it's politics that takes them over the edge. Don't get me wrong, i'm a big fan of metros and rapid transit and we need more of them, but I don't agree at any cost. Some cities are conducive to efficient high-capacity systems--cities that are narrow and dense. Where we live it's the opposite with lots of water crossings and wide parcels of land. It's a very complex subject as i'm sure you're aware of. I guess there is no perfect solution, but we need a good enough solution that is eventually supported with other transportation and land use measures that can be paid for without breaking the public bank.

[Weber's Playoff Beard]

UBC Line.. get it going already.

[Violator]

How come governments don't hire local employees for the positions in there area it would be a good idea and mabye help decrease the need for people to drive from the valley and other areas to work?

It might sound a bit fascist or old school to have people live in the same city they work.

Why cant this idea work for things like this.

[OldSchooler]

How come governments don't hire local employees for the positions in there area it would be a good idea and mabye help decrease the need for people to drive from the valley and other areas to work?

It might sound a bit fascist or old school to have people live in the same city they work.

Why cant this idea work for things like this.

That's one idea that is embedded in many plans: living close to work. However, people move more these days than in the past and also change jobs more than in the past. So it makes for a difficult concept to realize for the long-term. Also, moving closer to work may not work for some families that have two or more people in the workforce as the others may work in the other direction.

Finally, it is generally assumed that your situation is economically optimized to a degree (as best as people can perceive their own economically optimal situation). In this assumption, people will eventually realize living too far away is costing them in terms of time and money and will weight the value of living too far away with things like benefits of lower housing prices, larger homes/property/lawn, and general lifestyle.

One way policy makers can influence people living closer to work is to zone more housing and density with more commercial areas with more transit service, which is what is going on in quite a few places these days and an indirect way of achieving this objective. In a democratic and market-driven environment, you can't force people to do anything like this, but you can setup regulations, incentives, and disincentives to achieve these goals. And when you try to implement such ideas, you need to consider negative or opposing consequences as you are essentially interrupting a form of a sub-optimal socio-economic equilibrium. The goal is to improve that equilibrium (and try to add environmental externalities to that equilibrium is also a larger goal for greater equity), but sometimes tinkering can make things worse.