aGENT Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 and this is just what the 2 cent gas tax will pay for. Notice how it's regional? There's no shortage of projects--the line to UBC being just one. I see SFA in that plan that helps me or my wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The costs are going to be downloaded to all of us no matter what. Toll everything and have a hard plan that targets new infrastructure with those tolls. Maybe some areas get more infrastructure now, but that's probably because they're already deficient. We live in a Metro Region with regional problems. It sounds like we're arguing the same thing only you want commitment that a bridge tolled near you will go to a project near you. I would argue 'near' you is all of metro vancouver. Why not just up the gas tax instead of punishing bridge users? Is someone that crosses from Delta to New West causing that much more congestion than someone from Poco driving to downtown? I would say that near means nothing on routes I will be taking next to never and everthing on routes that I already take or potentially would take were they upgraded. Given the vast majority of bridge users are residents of south of fraser and the vast majority of improvements (included planned improvements) seem to be going towards east west travel north of fraser your argument of near sounds more like a sham to get me to subsidise someone else's commute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I see SFA in that plan that helps me or my wife. like i said, this is just the gas tax. tolls would add a lot more. it's not going to help every single person out there, but i don't see you crying when some new highway gets punched through you'll probably never use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Why not just up the gas tax instead of punishing bridge users? Is someone that crosses from Delta to New West causing that much more congestion than someone from Poco driving to downtown? I would say that near means nothing on routes I will be taking next to never and everthing on routes that I already take or potentially would take were they upgraded. Given the vast majority of bridge users are residents of south of fraser and the vast majority of improvements (included planned improvements) seem to be going towards east west travel north of fraser your argument of near sounds more like a sham to get me to subsidise someone else's commute. That's bs and you know it. Stop being silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Improvements are for everywhere--have you even looked at the plan? I was under the impression that the 2 cents was just for evergreen and the fancy plan actually required four cents a litre. I saw the King George HOV/B Line plans more than five years ago. Great idea. I will beleive it when I see it in operation. If the gas tax I am already going to be eating (in additon to the other ones already there) actually results in this I might change my tune but I am not holding out any hope that I will. (I suspect I will be able to afford to live closer to existing skytrain faster than I would be able to take a Bline from white rock!). Oh, and changing King George Hwy to King George Blvd and lower the speed limit just makes the express buses running down it so much more meh...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 That's bs and you know it. Stop being silly. Most of the bridges cross the Fraser. The dominant movement is north of the fraser in the morning and south of the fraser in the evening. I did a lot of backwards commuting in my time the difference is pretty staggering. As for the other bridges they go over Burrard inlet. Odds of them seeing big transit improvements to cover their tollls? You can bet they would be equally pissed in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Try Again Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 and this is just what the 2 cent gas tax will pay for. Notice how it's regional? There's no shortage of projects--the line to UBC being just one. is their an enlarged copy of this hard to see the words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverpig Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Why not just up the gas tax instead of punishing bridge users? Is someone that crosses from Delta to New West causing that much more congestion than someone from Poco driving to downtown? I would say that near means nothing on routes I will be taking next to never and everthing on routes that I already take or potentially would take were they upgraded. Given the vast majority of bridge users are residents of south of fraser and the vast majority of improvements (included planned improvements) seem to be going towards east west travel north of fraser your argument of near sounds more like a sham to get me to subsidise someone else's commute. How about viewing it as a toll that gets bridge users to pay the true cost of the roads they use? People who use transit put less stress on the roads, less pollution in the air, typically take up less space (lots in Vancouver are much smaller than out in the valley for the same cost), travel less distance, and don't need bridges to do their commute. It't not perfect, but it charges the users of the system a fare for using said system. I wonder what the maintenance budget for the roads and bridges is in the GVRD, and what percentage of that is covered directly by users (i.e. tolls). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weber's Playoff Beard Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 (edited) How about viewing it as a toll that gets bridge users to pay the true cost of the roads they use? People who use transit put less stress on the roads, less pollution in the air, typically take up less space (lots in Vancouver are much smaller than out in the valley for the same cost), travel less distance, and don't need bridges to do their commute. It't not perfect, but it charges the users of the system a fare for using said system. I wonder what the maintenance budget for the roads and bridges is in the GVRD, and what percentage of that is covered directly by users (i.e. tolls). I dont have a problem if they toll everything as long as it's a dollar or less.. or something reasonable. $2.90 is unreasonable. $2.90 x 2 times per day x 21 weekdays give or take = $121.80/month $122/month x 12 months = $1464.. that's a lot of money.. Whereas if the toll was $1 each way.. it would cost the user approximately 1/3 which is $500 a year. This is still a lot but significantly less. However, the government will be seeing the revenue less by 2/3 but tolling all bridges would punish everyone. Yes, I'm using the word punish. Oh and people taking the bus crossing over the bridge don't have to pay the toll. Or... they could just increase the tax on gas.. and that would reduce the outrage compared to announcing that all bridges will now be tolled. Edited August 16, 2011 by HeChats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 How about viewing it as a toll that gets bridge users to pay the true cost of the roads they use? People who use transit put less stress on the roads, less pollution in the air, typically take up less space (lots in Vancouver are much smaller than out in the valley for the same cost), travel less distance, and don't need bridges to do their commute. It't not perfect, but it charges the users of the system a fare for using said system. I wonder what the maintenance budget for the roads and bridges is in the GVRD, and what percentage of that is covered directly by users (i.e. tolls). So people that commute from Chilliwack to Surrey, Surrey to Richmond, or Coquitlam to downtown pay no tolls since they don't cross bridges but someone that commutes from Queensbourough to New West would? How does that represent true cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Documents/bpotp/plans/area_transit_plans/south_of_fraser/South%20of%20Fraser%20Area%20Transit%20Plan%20Phase%202.ashx page 8--south of fraser plan. Lots proposed. That, along with other projects elsewhere is where your tolls should go. Info about the gas tax http://www.translink.ca/en/About-TransLink/Media/2011/July/TransLink-to-Move-Forward-with-improvements.aspx A blow up of that diagram is in this document, page 18 http://www.translink.ca/~/media/documents/bpotp/plans/10_year_plan/2012%20plans/2012%20supplemental%20plan%20moving%20forward.ashx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 http://www.translink...0Phase%202.ashx page 8--south of fraser plan. Lots proposed. That, along with other projects elsewhere is where your tolls should go. Info about the gas tax http://www.translink...provements.aspx A blow up of that diagram is in this document, page 18 http://www.translink...%20forward.ashx If the two cents a litre gives me my BLine (still not holding my breath since although they plan for having it in 2012 they also planned to have it in 2008) and they certainly won't have bus priority lanes in that amount of time. And without priority and higher speeds it's not that big an improvement since even if I get a ride to King George station it's still faster for me to drive directly. (Now if they had centre median service with synchronised lights so it was faster than driving then it would be competitive.) If they want to toll the Alex Fraser or Queensbourough (depending on the north or south fraser screenline) then there should be HOV lanes on 91/99 with express buses not to mention the elimination of the )(*&^(*^ light or it's still full on rage should they toll the bridge and offer no improvements. (It should be noted that the improvements I ask for would probably require a tiny portion of the toll to fund and still result in a lot of gravy that they can spend on whatever). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Columbo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Oh and people taking the bus crossing over the bridge don't have to pay the toll. Yeah, they pay for a bus ticket, and almost certainly a 2-zone at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRR Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I see SFA in that plan that helps me or my wife. It's views like these that absolutely do nothing for the nation. "Does this plan help me?". There's a famous JFK quote out there; "...ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverpig Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So people that commute from Chilliwack to Surrey, Surrey to Richmond, or Coquitlam to downtown pay no tolls since they don't cross bridges but someone that commutes from Queensbourough to New West would? How does that represent true cost? The cost per km of road in terms of construction and maintenance is MUCH higher for the last commuter. Crapping in a solid gold toilet should cost more than dropping a deuce in a jiffy john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weber's Playoff Beard Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 It's views like these that absolutely do nothing for the nation. "Does this plan help me?". There's a famous JFK quote out there; "...ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." Isn't that what the whole HST debate is about... Because the HST does not help me.. but it helps the Province of BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 If the two cents a litre gives me my BLine (still not holding my breath since although they plan for having it in 2012 they also planned to have it in 2008) and they certainly won't have bus priority lanes in that amount of time. And without priority and higher speeds it's not that big an improvement since even if I get a ride to King George station it's still faster for me to drive directly. (Now if they had centre median service with synchronised lights so it was faster than driving then it would be competitive.) If they want to toll the Alex Fraser or Queensbourough (depending on the north or south fraser screenline) then there should be HOV lanes on 91/99 with express buses not to mention the elimination of the )(*&^(*^ light or it's still full on rage should they toll the bridge and offer no improvements. (It should be noted that the improvements I ask for would probably require a tiny portion of the toll to fund and still result in a lot of gravy that they can spend on whatever). you keep saying you'll rage if they toll without improvements....of course there will be improvements--but they'll be on a regional priority. you sound ironically like a yimby if you will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The cost per km of road in terms of construction and maintenance is MUCH higher for the last commuter. Crapping in a solid gold toilet should cost more than dropping a deuce in a jiffy john I am just saying that if you want it to be equitable raising gas taxes is better than tolls which only punish certain movements but not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronthecivil Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 you keep saying you'll rage if they toll without improvements....of course there will be improvements--but they'll be on a regional priority. you sound ironically like a yimby if you will... It's already painfull enough watching that light flip through the cycle 5-10 times every morning especially when it's the only remaining light on the freeway network. It was a priority to remove about 7 years ago but money ran short. So if they put a toll on the pittance that it takes to put in a couple ramps and remove the light had better be part of the package. Much like the north west corner peeps getting pissed about skytrain never showing up I am hate that light (and so do many others) and feel the promises of anything resembling good transit are so hollow it's very much "I will beleive it when I see it". What happens if the evergreen line bids come in higher than expected? Reduce the length? Delay evergeen? Or (once again) put off the south of Fraser improvements? As such, until I see something concrete on the ground, you can take your toll and shove it where the sun don't shine. Capiche paisano? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 It's already painfull enough watching that light flip through the cycle 5-10 times every morning especially when it's the only remaining light on the freeway network. It was a priority to remove about 7 years ago but money ran short. So if they put a toll on the pittance that it takes to put in a couple ramps and remove the light had better be part of the package. Much like the north west corner peeps getting pissed about skytrain never showing up I am hate that light (and so do many others) and feel the promises of anything resembling good transit are so hollow it's very much "I will beleive it when I see it". What happens if the evergreen line bids come in higher than expected? Reduce the length? Delay evergeen? Or (once again) put off the south of Fraser improvements? As such, until I see something concrete on the ground, you can take your toll and shove it where the sun don't shine. Capiche paisano? So you don't want a toll until you see something on the ground, but to see something on the ground there has to be $$ generated. Sure bud. I know it's painful for you to have to wait 15-20 (whatever it is) minutes in the morning. Perhaps you should take a gander at how many of the cars lined up are single occupancy? Then you'll have your answer as to why you're waiting so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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