The Official Transit Thread

[ronthecivil]

Doesn't matter how many merits there are for extending it. No one wants it. Except broke students.

Residents in the area don't want it. Businesses in the area don't want it. Everyone else that pays taxes doesn't want it because it doesn't even effect them, a skytrain extension wouldn't help them at all.

The only people that are left are transit riders of the broadway corridor, the majority being broke students who aren't tax payers. The province won't be able to get money from them in the first place to finance the project. It will never happen thank god.

The bus service along there is more than sufficient

The bus service is not even close to sufficient. Go to commercial station this septemeber in the morning. The entire plaza will be filled with a giant queue of studants. The frequent lane changes required by the buses severly reduces the flow of traffic. Just to handle the traffic of keeping it a bus only system you would need to eliminate all parking to create another travel lane otherwise it will soon be a parking lot.

[ronthecivil]

I find the closed mindedness and inability to reason very apparent in eco-nazis as well

Its a 2 way street

We have different priorities

You guys are in love with ridiculous sky train routes that cost a fortune and benefit a small amount of people

I'd rather see the money spent on our roads and highways or lack-there-of

Did you fail to notice the multi billion dollars being spend on hwy one widening and port mann bridge improvements, south fraser perimeter road, new pitt river bridge, north fraser perimeter road, new golden ears bridge, border infrastructure program, fraser highway widening and many other small projects that are either recently completed, being built, or under design and about to be built?

Now, if you think that your going to have anything resembling a highway travelling east west in Vancouver, your really out to lunch. You want to see an angry public meeting? Propose an elevated highway going down west 12th. That is what it would take to deal with traffic using your method.

[ronthecivil]

Obviously people in Richmond do take transit

But not enough to warrant the new Canada Line

Not even close

What criterion are you using to determine the warrants? I am interested in your techniques that result in better numbers than traffic and ridership modelling! EMME2 your days are numbered!

[inane]

Did you fail to notice the multi billion dollars being spend on hwy one widening and port mann bridge improvements, south fraser perimeter road, new pitt river bridge, north fraser perimeter road, new golden ears bridge, border infrastructure program, fraser highway widening and many other small projects that are either recently completed, being built, or under design and about to be built?

Now, if you think that your going to have anything resembling a highway travelling east west in Vancouver, your really out to lunch. You want to see an angry public meeting? Propose an elevated highway going down west 12th. That is what it would take to deal with traffic using your method.

Shame that Vancouver knows how 1950's highways are, yet as you said, there are numerous examples of highway expansion in the suburbs...

[ronthecivil]

Shame that Vancouver knows how 1950's highways are, yet as you said, there are numerous examples of highway expansion in the suburbs...

Vancouver is the opposite extreme where they seem to even get up in arms about rapid transit. And god forbid you eliminate some parking on arterials, convert some roads to one way (they are doing the opposite in fact), toss in a few left turn slots, etc. You know, cheap and easy ways to improve traffic flow for cars AND buses.

Highways aren't THE solution, but can be part of the solution, provided they are in the right location, have HOV facilities, and appropriate demand management. You have to be able to have some sort of way to conduct trade (trucks and what not need to get to the super market) and before you mention rail remember that is being improved too, with predictible results (see Vicky Huntington).

Keep in mind the suburbs are coming around by putting in some decent dense cores in places like metrotown, downtown richmond, port moody, and surrey sure is trying if not suceeding. With cores like that you can connect them with rapid transit, provide customers for business so the house owning market will have local places to shop and further reinforce business in the community. The actual solution is to give people a real choice on where to live and how to commute through sensible and responsible, balanced urban planning.

[inane]

Vancouver is the opposite extreme where they seem to even get up in arms about rapid transit. And god forbid you eliminate some parking on arterials, convert some roads to one way (they are doing the opposite in fact), toss in a few left turn slots, etc. You know, cheap and easy ways to improve traffic flow for cars AND buses.

Highways aren't THE solution, but can be part of the solution, provided they are in the right location, have HOV facilities, and appropriate demand management. You have to be able to have some sort of way to conduct trade (trucks and what not need to get to the super market) and before you mention rail remember that is being improved too, with predictible results (see Vicky Huntington).

Keep in mind the suburbs are coming around by putting in some decent dense cores in places like metrotown, downtown richmond, port moody, and surrey sure is trying if not suceeding. With cores like that you can connect them with rapid transit, provide customers for business so the house owning market will have local places to shop and further reinforce business in the community. The actual solution is to give people a real choice on where to live and how to commute through sensible and responsible, balanced urban planning.

Yes, these suburbs are trying--Surrey, Richmond, etc... they are trying to create cores and centers to reduce the dependence on cars. So why is the province building all these highways that contradict directly that philosophy?

[ronthecivil]

Yes, these suburbs are trying--Surrey, Richmond, etc... they are trying to create cores and centers to reduce the dependence on cars. So why is the province building all these highways that contradict directly that philosophy?

To deal with the existing demand and facilitate trade. Trucks can't take the bus. If you might have noticed in the case of the golden ears bridge and new port mann, tolls and hov lanes are going in to manage the demand and support car pooling and transit.

Reducing the percentage of trips done by automobile is an admirable and acheivable goal, but that won't eliminate them. The trick is to provide alternatives and price them accordingly. Keep in mind this is the same province that as I mention putting tolls on the boundaries to these regions and instituting a gas tax that will rise to nine cents a year over the next three years alone. Translink already has approval to raise it another three as well and given their cash strapped position it's pretty much a given that it will happen. The city of Vancouver further manages this by having high parking rates as well, and don't be shocked if a parking tax gets put in further raising the prices. After all, the only REAL demand management tools are travel time and cost. Put in rapid transit to the cores and you give a time carrot. The car management is being done with cost sticks. I would hardly call it a complete disaster.

[inane]

To deal with the existing demand and facilitate trade. Trucks can't take the bus. If you might have noticed in the case of the golden ears bridge and new port mann, tolls and hov lanes are going in to manage the demand and support car pooling and transit.

Reducing the percentage of trips done by automobile is an admirable and acheivable goal, but that won't eliminate them. The trick is to provide alternatives and price them accordingly. Keep in mind this is the same province that as I mention putting tolls on the boundaries to these regions and instituting a gas tax that will rise to nine cents a year over the next three years alone. Translink already has approval to raise it another three as well and given their cash strapped position it's pretty much a given that it will happen. The city of Vancouver further manages this by having high parking rates as well, and don't be shocked if a parking tax gets put in further raising the prices. After all, the only REAL demand management tools are travel time and cost. Put in rapid transit to the cores and you give a time carrot. The car management is being done with cost sticks. I would hardly call it a complete disaster.

Yes, I fully support the tolls. I understand trucks need to get around, but there is plenty of highway for trucks to get around as it exists now, we just need to get the people out of the single occupancy cars to make it happen. How do you do that? You don't build more highways.

The gas tax is great, but the money raised from it doesn't go back into transit. That's dumb. I agree with raising the price of parking, tolls, etc...charge the user. BUT, I acknowledge you can't do all that without improving transit and other options. Unfortunately, you have different levels of government doing different things...

[ronthecivil]

Yes, I fully support the tolls. I understand trucks need to get around, but there is plenty of highway for trucks to get around as it exists now, we just need to get the people out of the single occupancy cars to make it happen. How do you do that? You don't build more highways.

The gas tax is great, but the money raised from it doesn't go back into transit. That's dumb. I agree with raising the price of parking, tolls, etc...charge the user. BUT, I acknowledge you can't do all that without improving transit and other options. Unfortunately, you have different levels of government doing different things...

Ya, the multilevel goverment thing is a problem, and really, people in 100 Mile shouldn't be paying gas tax to build transit in Vancouver. That said, the province should give translink authority to generate more revenue so it is possible to provide alternatives to driving.

That said, if were going to be taxing the hell out of drivers, you gotta throw them a bone and make it the expensive but convient option is was really meant to be. Using the cost stick might work, but using the congestion stick hurts the economy, is bad for the enviroment, and pisses off taxpayers. So a widened highway with a toll it is. (And the toll pays for the improvements, it's not like the goverment is subsidising the roads by doing that.)

It all has to be about a good fast transit option vs. a faster but expensive driving option. That is the balance that will work. For example, lets look at how we SHOULD do the broadway corridor up to Alma.

12th and 16th should be alternating one way streets so that vehicles can move. Time the lights to make them move at 50km/h so that the community overly disrupted. Connect them directly to the freeway so that cars coming off the widened highway don't clog up east van.

The skytrain extension should go under tenth (with cut and cover for cost savings), and the residents of tenth placated by offering to purchase licences to construct for say enough to go to Mexico for two weeks when it gets on their nerves. Offer to buy out any residents that want to get out of there, and hold on to that property until construction is done. When it is done, convert tenth to local only traffic with the entire route being a cycling walking corridor greenway.

Get rid of the parking on Broadway, and you could have a real fun time coming up with a mix of bus queue jumper lanes (would still need many buses on broadway), widened sidewalk for restaurant and sidewalk amentities like an upscale granville kind of idea, left turn slots to get into underground parking, etc. Parking for businesses could be accomidated by allowing new developements to build underground parking and then taxing the hell out of it. Encourage dense developement on Broadway the whole length (zoning). Encourage medium dense developement on tenth (rezone and sell your bought properties from earlier) to create appartment blocks at the transit nodes with townhouses and such in between. A mix of denser developements all the way up to 16th scaling from highest on Broadway moving to less and less dense as you move south would make a nice transition between the metro strip and the more suburban type places south of there. Make sure that as it's desnsified you increase the number of parks to ensure there are some nice places to relax in, bring the kids to, etc.

In this scenario, you can still drive, but it's expensive, but faster than now. Taking transit is way faster than now. And with all the developement living there and walking or cycling is easier as well. That's how things should be done, rather than this bickering over the whole cars v. buses v. walking debate that never actually results in a system that works for everyone.

[BuckyHermit]

I find it hilarious that Galvy is saying that the 99 is used almost exclusively by students... Yet, in the summertime, when most UBC students aren't attending full-time classes, that bus route is just as crowded and just as used. They can't ALL be students then, can they?

And it's important to note that the Canada Line isn't just serving the people who used to use the 98. It's also serving the people who go to and from Vancouver via the 311, 351, 352, 354, 488, 490, 491, 492, 496, 601, 602, 603 and 604, in addition to replacing the 424. I regularly see full buses for at least 351, 354, 491 and 496 (the latter two routes sometimes even uses the 60-foot articulated buses), so having the CL might ease off the pressure for those routes as well (even if does make for a longer commute for me, due to my particular location along the 491 corridor).

Having done a few park-and-rides in South Surrey this past month, and taking one of the 3xx buses from Vancouver on the way back, I can safely say that at least one of those routes would benefit from the line (especially the 351 and 354).

The 98 itself is a nightmare once it hits downtown and No. 3 Road. I think everyone else here pretty much said what I was going to say.

As well, it's not really just the CL itself but also how it fits in the larger scope of transportation in the area. The CL not only directly links the airport to downtown, but also opens up a portal to the southern communities by dipping into Richmond -- it'll create new transportation possibilities for Ladner, Tsawwassen and South Delta (and even South Surrey, if you want to go to that extreme), since they can now use Richmond-Brighouse Station or Bridgeport Station as a hub to connect to those communities (much like how Lougheed Station is a hub for routes to the Tri-Cities, and how Surrey Central Station is a hub for Langley and White Rock routes). It fits right into TransLink's "hub and spoke" planning methods for suburban bus services.

Edited May 14, 2009 by BuckyHermit

[nitronuts]

We should also mention that the Canada Line's capacity is equiavlent to a 10-lane highway (the Expo and Millennium Line are both equivalent to 20-lane highways each). Surely, you couldn't build a ten lane, 19-km highway with just $2-billion....but that's what we did with the Canada Line.

Not to mention that the Canada Line will see 100,000 passengers per day within 2 years of opening day. The Port Mann Bridge sees that much traffic each day, and its replacement will cost $3-billion.

[ronthecivil]

We should also mention that the Canada Line's capacity is equiavlent to a 10-lane highway (the Expo and Millennium Line are both equivalent to 20-lane highways each). Surely, you couldn't build a ten lane, 19-km highway with just $2-billion....but that's what we did with the Canada Line.

Not to mention that the Canada Line will see 100,000 passengers per day within 2 years of opening day. The Port Mann Bridge sees that much traffic each day, and its replacement will cost $3-billion.

Well, your number work in terms of capacity if you had the entire highway filled with SOVs. But either way, the expo and milenium line carry at least as much traffic as say the future highway one will.

What I don't get is someone saying we don't need skytrain extensions, given how increadibly well used they are right now. I would venture that these days the expo line is actually a revenue generator for the system, and in about ten, so will the millenium line, especially if it runs from Coquitlam to UBC. Sure building a line to UBC will be disruptive, but that will be temporary, while doing nothing will cause a traffic jam of noisy buses and beeping cars that will be disruptive until such time that something is done, which of course, when that happens, will be disruptive.

Ol' Galv might have a big slew of peeps he met at the public meeting that oppose actually having a functioning system for moving people around, but usually it's those that are against things that speak the loudest. I know from having lived there for five years as someone that actually designs roads and rails and what not (you tell someone that, you hear their opinion fast), the overwhelming majority would rather that something get done rather than the opposite.

[nitronuts]

^ The Expo Line rakes in 106%, meaning a 6% profit. And the Millennium Line broke even on its operational costs two years ago.

What disruption there will be will only be temporary....and you're right, it's those that are opposed that are usually the loudest.

[ronthecivil]

^ The Expo Line rakes in 106%, meaning a 6% profit. And the Millennium Line broke even on its operational costs two years ago.

What disruption there will be will only be temporary....and you're right, it's those that are opposed that are usually the loudest.

You notice on my plan I offer to buy the land from the loud types. And luckily as long as you stay off their property, and don't want to take the licence to construct payout, you can just offer to stay within your right of way and say screw you.

[BradMayFan]

^ this summer i believe. And from summer to December, the two older vessels will go out of service one at a time to be retrofitted. And in time for 2010 Games, all three boats will be in service for 10-minute frequencies.

:D :D :D

FINALLY! SeaBus every ten minutes!

Edited May 15, 2009 by BradMayFan

[Galvatron]

The bus service is not even close to sufficient. Go to commercial station this septemeber in the morning. The entire plaza will be filled with a giant queue of studants. The frequent lane changes required by the buses severly reduces the flow of traffic. Just to handle the traffic of keeping it a bus only system you would need to eliminate all parking to create another travel lane otherwise it will soon be a parking lot.

Boohoo an entire plaza full of students

That means nothing compared to the massive backup of cars on highway 1 and 99

And the difference is that those idle cars are costing the economy millions of dollars per day. The same can't be said for that plaza full of students. Missing 1 bus isn't hurting anyone except the student. They should plan ahead so they get to school on time even with the back ups.

The lower mainland's road system is atrocious and isn't even close to sufficient

And since the majority of residents in the lower mainland use their car to travel to work, and coincidentally they are the ones funding transportation projects, it only makes sense more is invested in upgrading/expanding our roads

[Buggernut]

Boohoo an entire plaza full of students

That means nothing compared to the massive backup of cars on highway 1 and 99

And the difference is that those idle cars are costing the economy millions of dollars per day. The same can't be said for that plaza full of students. Missing 1 bus isn't hurting anyone except the student. They should plan ahead so they get to school on time even with the back ups.

The lower mainland's road system is atrocious and isn't even close to sufficient

And since the majority of residents in the lower mainland use their car to travel to work, and coincidentally they are the ones funding transportation projects, it only makes sense more is invested in upgrading/expanding our roads

Here's an idea. Put that money towards building rapid transit to run along those corridors. Don't sacrifice the environment and jeopardize more people's safety to satisfy people's selfish urges to ride in the comfort of their own private vehicle, and open up the roads to essential traffic. Reduce waste.

[BuckyHermit]

Boohoo an entire plaza full of students

That means nothing compared to the massive backup of cars on highway 1 and 99

And the difference is that those idle cars are costing the economy millions of dollars per day. The same can't be said for that plaza full of students. Missing 1 bus isn't hurting anyone except the student. They should plan ahead so they get to school on time even with the back ups.

The lower mainland's road system is atrocious and isn't even close to sufficient

And since the majority of residents in the lower mainland use their car to travel to work, and coincidentally they are the ones funding transportation projects, it only makes sense more is invested in upgrading/expanding our roads

With a clunker of a transit system like that, people are going to use cars instead and make traffic even worse.

Didn't Los Angeles teach anyone anything? They're STILL playing catch-up right now over there due to this exact line of thinking.

[Galvatron]

Here's an idea. Put that money towards building rapid transit to run along those corridors. Don't sacrifice the environment and jeopardize more people's safety to satisfy people's selfish urges to ride in the comfort of their own private vehicle, and open up the roads to essential traffic. Reduce waste.

Even with rapid transit along those corridors people will still choose to drive. Thats what you left wing nuts don't understand.

Time to face facts

[Buggernut]

Even with rapid transit along those corridors people will still choose to drive. Thats what you left wing nuts don't understand.

Time to face facts

Not if it becomes more inconvenient and uncomfortable for them to drive than to take the train.

NOT expanding the highway will do that.