The Official Transit Thread

[ronthecivil]

http://www.straight.com/article-271532/vancouver/marvin-shaffer-flawed-analysis-props-bc-publicprivate-partnerships

"In its methodology document, Partnerships B.C. explains how it calculates value for the “risk transfer” to the private partner and the benefits from long-term performance guarantees it achieves with P3s. Partnerships B.C. doesn’t explain why risks can’t be transferred under traditional fixed-price design-build contracts, and why long-term performance can’t be guaranteed with bonds or similar mechanisms as is commonly done in traditional (non-P3) contracts. That is problematic in itself."

He is right in that the province is overenthusiastic to get P3 projects going but that doesn't mean that they are all bad. The main thing is that you transfer the risk to the private sector. The risk has a cost to it. That's why traditional projects have to pay for bonds, and even those bonds won't comletely save you. (Again, how is that tunnel work on the north shore going as an example, good luck getting enough bond money to finish that project off within the original contract amount), and can add substantially to project costs. Putting the operational componant in makes sure that the costs of operating the facility are included in the total costs.

The province SHOULD explain why those risks can't be transferred (at least in an acceptably equal priced way) and why long term performance can't be guaranteed with bonds. If they did, they would probably end up with a better understanding of P3's themselves, and would no doubt have better judgement of when and when not to apply them.

But P3 projects won't and shouldn't be ruled out as a possibility. For a good one, look up the confederation bridge.

P.S. Design-build projects (and design-build-operate) are hardly traditional and are often confused with P3s for whatever reason.

[kurtzfan]

Now we have to walk further away from Richmond Brighouse skytrain to 403 bus stop (Bay 7).

[nitronuts]

"In its methodology document, Partnerships B.C. explains how it calculates value for the “risk transfer” to the private partner and the benefits from long-term performance guarantees it achieves with P3s. Partnerships B.C. doesn’t explain why risks can’t be transferred under traditional fixed-price design-build contracts, and why long-term performance can’t be guaranteed with bonds or similar mechanisms as is commonly done in traditional (non-P3) contracts. That is problematic in itself."

He is right in that the province is overenthusiastic to get P3 projects going but that doesn't mean that they are all bad. The main thing is that you transfer the risk to the private sector. The risk has a cost to it. That's why traditional projects have to pay for bonds, and even those bonds won't comletely save you. (Again, how is that tunnel work on the north shore going as an example, good luck getting enough bond money to finish that project off within the original contract amount), and can add substantially to project costs. Putting the operational componant in makes sure that the costs of operating the facility are included in the total costs.

The province SHOULD explain why those risks can't be transferred (at least in an acceptably equal priced way) and why long term performance can't be guaranteed with bonds. If they did, they would probably end up with a better understanding of P3's themselves, and would no doubt have better judgement of when and when not to apply them.

But P3 projects won't and shouldn't be ruled out as a possibility. For a good one, look up the confederation bridge.

P.S. Design-build projects (and design-build-operate) are hardly traditional and are often confused with P3s for whatever reason.

Well said.

[ahzdeen]

So one of the groups that Macqarie Group (an Aussie company)was talking to about helping to secure the financing was the Bank of Scotland...the same bank that the British Government had to bail out. So this company wanted to use British tax payer bailout money to design, build and operate a bridge, pay back the money with interest and toll the road to make it's money back and then a profit. What part of this sounds logical? The Liberal Government doesn't stop to think about the big picture. It is a P3 no matter what the circumstance is. And it is mostly just for spite...not sound economics.

You should read the report by Ron Parks and Rosanne Terhart.

So what you're telling me, is that the bank made an investment expecting a profit. That sounds logical to me. Why does it matter where the money came from as long as the investment is sound with an expectation of profit?

Or is it the fact that a Scottish bank is funding an Aussie company that's illogical to you? If that's what it is, you need to be exposed to the real world sometime. Nothing in that paragraph sounded illogical to me.

[nitronuts]

So what you're telling me, is that the bank made an investment expecting a profit. That sounds logical to me. Why does it matter where the money came from as long as the investment is sound with an expectation of profit?

Or is it the fact that a Scottish bank is funding an Aussie company that's illogical to you? If that's what it is, you need to be exposed to the real world sometime. Nothing in that paragraph sounded illogical to me.

The corporate boogeyman is going to kil us all.

[ahzdeen]

The corporate boogeyman is going to kil us all.

Quick, everyone unionize!

[trek]

Turnstiles coming to SkyTrain, West Coast Express and Seabus

Construction will start next year

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - Expect turnstiles at SkyTrain stations, West Coast Express stops and at Seabus terminals in 2013. TransLink is going ahead with the extra security measure and bringing in a new Smart Card system at the same time.

The smart card is similar to systems used in cities like Seattle, giving users the option to reload their cards in person, by phone or on the web. The cards will have a chip inside to allow those with loaded fare to pass through fare gates. They will also work for bus fares. Construction on the upgrades will start next year.

source: http://www.news1130....ress-and-seabus

Awesome news and about time...

[nitronuts]

FINALLY!

Smart Card and Faregate Project moves forward

TransLink has given approval for procurement to proceed for a new ‘smart card’ fare collection system across all TransLink transit services, complemented by faregates that will be constructed on the Metro Vancouver SkyTrain and SeaBus systems. TransLink intends to issue a Request for Qualifications (RFQ) for the Smart Card and Faregate Project this month, followed by a Request for Proposals (RFP) in the spring of 2010. Work is expected to be underway in 2010, with the new system operational in 2013.

Using a smart card will provide a more seamless travel experience for passengers accessing TransLink’s transit network including SkyTrain, SeaBus, buses and West Coast Express.

TransLink’s smart card will be similar to cards in use throughout the world including the ‘ORCA’ cards already in use in Seattle. The card itself is the size of a credit card and is embedded with a microchip. It will be available at all transit stations, and through other distribution channels, and will replace all other current forms of tickets and passes on TransLink’s system. Smart card holders will be able to “load” their cards in person, via phone or on the web, and then use it on all forms of transit in Metro Vancouver by “tagging on / tagging off” at an electronic reader as they board and exit transit vehicles.

“Our customers have told us that convenience is a major factor in choosing to take transit,” said CEO Ian Jarvis. “The addition of TransLink’s smart card fare collection system, with all of its features, will deliver that experience, putting technology at our fingertips that will boost transit efficiency and give us the ability to transform our whole fare system.”

Smart card readers will be installed near the doors on TransLink’s bus fleet. In the case of SkyTrain stations, the electronic readers will be incorporated into the faregates. Installation of faregates on SkyTrain also has overwhelming public support as it provides people with an additional sense of security on the system. Faregates also address some of the problems associated with fare evasion and will help TransLink capture additional revenues that are being lost.

The new fare collection system will generate valuable data that will help TransLink make transit services better and more efficient. There will be ridership statistics by the time of day and the day of the week for every route in the system, which will help TransLink refine hours of service, schedules and even the size of the bus used, to match customer demand.

While the current transit fare structure will remain in place when the new fare collection system debuts in 2013, the new technology will have the flexibility to allow for new fare options and a greater variety of price incentives to reward customer loyalty and attract new people to transit.

Part of the overall cost of the program will be for renovations in Expo Line SkyTrain stations to make room for faregates. The new Faregates must be accessible, but designed to prohibit “stile-jumping.’ The disabled community will be consulted in the new year on faregate design as the project gets underway.

Funding for the Smart Card and Faregate Project, first announced in April 2009, is a joint partnership between the Government of Canada, British Columbia and Translink. The Province is investing up to $40 million and the Government of Canada has agreed in principal to commit up to $30 million to a maximum of one-third of eligible costs in this project. TransLink will fund the balance of the project; the project budget is $171 million. The competitive procurement process will start with the issuance of the Request For Qualifications (RFQ), and then the process will continue through 2010.

This means we'll start seeing Expo Line Station renovations next year to accommodate space for the fare gates...the Canada Line and Millennium Line Stations do not require renovations and were built with fare gates in mind. Actual fare gate installation is a few years away.

Edited December 18, 2009 by nitronuts

[trek]

They're going to keep the 3-zone system even with the turnstiles? Now that's a stupid idea.

[nitronuts]

They're going to keep the 3-zone system even with the turnstiles? Now that's a stupid idea.

No, they are switching to a distance-traveled fare system.

[ronthecivil]

Smart cards sound good but the gates do nothing so long as your allowed to pay a cash fare. Just beg your way on. Or go the same route as the disabled access. I would rather see the perception of security reinforced with having the same number of security staff as required for the gates and disabled access having the ability to freely roam.

After all, having a person controlling a gate doesn't stop crazies from getting on the bus, why would it stop them from getting on the skytrain?

Those gates are gonna suck if you wanna bring your bike on too.

But I don't blame Nitro for promoting them, after all, gotta yield to your political masters, no matter how foolish a decision they make.

[ronthecivil]

No, they are switching to a distance-traveled fare system.

A wonderfully sneaky way of raising fares. Distance travelled fares are either going to continue to gouge Vancouver riders and subsidise south of fraser or south of fraser is going to see such a rate hike that ridership goes down.

[nitronuts]

Smart cards sound good but the gates do nothing so long as your allowed to pay a cash fare. Just beg your way on. Or go the same route as the disabled access. I would rather see the perception of security reinforced with having the same number of security staff as required for the gates and disabled access having the ability to freely roam.

After all, having a person controlling a gate doesn't stop crazies from getting on the bus, why would it stop them from getting on the skytrain?

Those gates are gonna suck if you wanna bring your bike on too.

lol, we've debated over it quite a few times...I'm not even going to bother.

But I don't blame Nitro for promoting them, after all, gotta yield to your political masters, no matter how foolish a decision they make.

lol...i've been to quite a few metros around the world that utilize fare gates and smart cards and they work wonderfully, particularly in Hong Kong and London (and i'm sure the ones in Tokyo are even better). My support draws from those experiences and nothing more.

Fare gates certainly do have their disadvantages...I certainly am not a blind cheerleader, akin to kurtzfan here.

Edited December 18, 2009 by nitronuts

[kurtzfan]

FINALLY!

Smart Card and Faregate Project moves forward

TransLink has given approval for procurement to proceed for a new ‘smart card’ fare collection system across all TransLink transit services, complemented by faregates that will be constructed on the Metro Vancouver SkyTrain and SeaBus systems. TransLink intends to issue a Request for Qualifications (RFQ) for the Smart Card and Faregate Project this month, followed by a Request for Proposals (RFP) in the spring of 2010. Work is expected to be underway in 2010, with the new system operational in 2013.

What?!

The Liberals government promised that there will be fare gates in 2012. (not 2013 )

The Liberals broke its promise again!!!

Edited December 18, 2009 by kurtzfan

[aGENT]

What?!

The Liberals government promised that there will be fare gates in 2012. (not 2013 )

The Liberals broke its promise again!!!

I lol'd

[trek]

No, they are switching to a distance-traveled fare system.

that's not what it says in your own quoted article.

[cj_coolcat]

My skytrain this morning smelled like vanilla and cinnamon buns. Is there some kind of pilot air freshener program going on that I don't know about? Haha.

(No, it wasn't a new one. Those ones still have the "new train smell" which I can't stand.)

[ronthecivil]

lol, we've debated over it quite a few times...I'm not even going to bother.

lol...i've been to quite a few metros around the world that utilize fare gates and smart cards and they work wonderfully, particularly in Hong Kong and London (and i'm sure the ones in Tokyo are even better). My support draws from those experiences and nothing more.

Fare gates certainly do have their disadvantages...I certainly am not a blind cheerleader, akin to kurtzfan here.

I know you disagree but any time someone cheerleads the gates I am going to bring it up. I am fine with making my peace at one statement.

I have been on several myself, included many times on the SF one. Maybe those gates are old and not as good, but walking through a mechanically shutting door (that closes more or less on your donkey so people don't sneak through) doesn't feel safe and is super annoying to bring items (like luggage or a large bag) though.

What bugs me though is this is going to cost a lot of money while providing little benefit. Enforcement could be the same simply by hiring the guys that run the gates standing guard at the entrances. Safety on the trains is probably more an issue in the areas surrounding the stations than on them. Perhaps invest in some lighting in the areas around stations as a start. Much cheaper more effective ideas off the top of my head. This is a politically driven decision, pure and simple.

[ronthecivil]

What?!

The Liberals government promised that there will be fare gates in 2012. (not 2013 )

The Liberals broke its promise again!!!

Politicians come up with completion dates based on first gloss back of the envelope time estimates all the time, and then it's pretty much set in stone that it needs to be done by then. Meanwhile, people like me get burned out trying to keep up with these stupid schedules. You can take your 2012 and stick it where the sun don't shine.

[d^/ > _ < \^b]

my bus driver on the UBC 480 was awesome yesterday. he kept talking for almost the entire trip, and telling us random jokes and his stories about him and his grand kids. he also said that exam period is one of his favourite times for driving because usually students don't get off so late (oh my exam ended at 7:30ish) so he is always quite lonely on the bus with only like ten ppl on the whole bus everyday. and then he asked us we wanted to sing christmas carols, and everyone agreed. we ended off singing rudolph and frosty . it was pretty awesome, everyone had like large smiles on their faces throughout the entire ride.