The Official Transit Thread

[inane]

Well, can't say much about the BC place thing, though much of that is also to blame with the city of Van (where else) and all those fun decisions where people were turning down free stadiums....

The billions on gateway is like the even more billions on site C. It's an investiment that will yield revenue down the road that will pay off the initial capital cost. That toll on the Port Mann bridge is going to be a licence to print money.

Investing in the evergreen line is a good idea, but there is no way in heck the fare revenue is going to recover the capital costs. In fact, it will add operational costs above and beyond those that translink is already having a hard time maintaining.

And I say again, investments in transit yield revenue down the road that will pay off the initial capital cost. The direct revenue from fares might not, but if you look a few layers deeper (reduced environmental impacts, social benefits, decreased health care costs, increase in land value, increases in businesses, etc) the benefits are there.

The problem is the benefits are much more long term and the media and others look at money stream in and money stream out. And that's it. But it's not that simple.

[ronthecivil]

And I say again, investments in transit yield revenue down the road that will pay off the initial capital cost. The direct revenue from fares might not, but if you look a few layers deeper (reduced environmental impacts, social benefits, decreased health care costs, increase in land value, increases in businesses, etc) the benefits are there.

The problem is the benefits are much more long term and the media and others look at money stream in and money stream out. And that's it. But it's not that simple.

I never said I personally would vote against the funding they are going to be putting their hand out for.

The thing is you don't need to win me over. You need a way to win THEM over.

[aGENT]

And I say again, investments in transit yield revenue down the road that will pay off the initial capital cost. The direct revenue from fares might not, but if you look a few layers deeper (reduced environmental impacts, social benefits, decreased health care costs, increase in land value, increases in businesses, etc) the benefits are there.

The problem is the benefits are much more long term and the media and others look at money stream in and money stream out. And that's it. But it's not that simple.

As Ron eluded to, you need to be able to show people concrete examples of how this all works. Without that people just see higher taxes to subsidize a service that may or may not benefit them directly. (In my case, not).

It's a chicken and egg thing. And unless you can show people the delicious omelet they could have....

[inane]

As Ron eluded to, you need to be able to show people concrete examples of how this all works. Without that people just see higher taxes to subsidize a service that may or may not benefit them directly. (In my case, not).

It's a chicken and egg thing. And unless you can show people the delicious omelet they could have....

It's not a question of being able to show concrete examples, there are plenty. The problem is that the benefits are long term and politics are not. So even if a government knows transit is a good, long term investment they are gun shy because of short term politics.

But it's weird because here you have the HST being rammed through because it's (they argue) a good long term investment even though in costs in the short term. So why do their collective balls shrivel when it comes to transit? At least with transit you have works on the ground...

[ronthecivil]

It's not a question of being able to show concrete examples, there are plenty. The problem is that the benefits are long term and politics are not. So even if a government knows transit is a good, long term investment they are gun shy because of short term politics.

But it's weird because here you have the HST being rammed through because it's (they argue) a good long term investment even though in costs in the short term. So why do their collective balls shrivel when it comes to transit? At least with transit you have works on the ground...

The recession fighter! Now THAT's a good spin!

I can see someone making hay with that.

Thing is the province already earmarked a bunch of money for it. They are simply trying to get translink to figure out how to generate some of the money from the locals. I think that so long as it's clear what it's going to be spent on there might be some hope, especially with that excellent spin move.

[aGENT]

The recession fighter! Now THAT's a good spin!

I can see someone making hay with that.

Thing is the province already earmarked a bunch of money for it. They are simply trying to get translink to figure out how to generate some of the money from the locals. I think that so long as it's clear what it's going to be spent on there might be some hope, especially with that excellent spin move.

That's what I, seemingly the government and I'm sure a lot of people would like to hear. How to get the try-cities (tee hee) people who will benefit from said project to cough up some $$

Edited September 24, 2010 by J.R.

[Buggernut]

As Ron eluded to, you need to be able to show people concrete examples of how this all works. Without that people just see higher taxes to subsidize a service that may or may not benefit them directly. (In my case, not).

Too bad people don't see the indirect benefits (less congested roads, cleaner air, etc.).

[inane]

A timely article...

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Bikes+versus+cars+pays+their+fair+share+Vancouver+roads/3577047/story.html

VANCOUVER - Bike riders or car drivers? Who are the free riders who fail to pay their fair share of the cost of building and maintaining the city’s roadways?

In Vancouver’s raging bike-car debate, where most people stand tends to depend on where they sit — whether perched on a saddle or ensconced in a car.

But, while you can make a case that neither group pays its freight in a direct way, the facts are clear: People who don’t drive much — including most true bike zealots — significantly subsidize those who drive a lot. And in any kilometre-by-kilometre comparison of city residents who travel exclusively by one mode or the other, drivers tend to pay less than their real costs, while riders pay more.

Given how drivers are incessantly dinged for things like licences, parking and fuel tax — and how cyclists aren’t — you may wonder how can this be.

Well, the first point is that car-related government revenue in general doesn’t cover the costs car use imposes on the Canadian public. The second is that if you look at just municipal balance sheets — who is paying whose costs in Vancouver or other cities — the subsidy for cars is far, far higher than the Canada-wide average.

A fair analysis of car-related costs and revenues should not include general sales taxes. These apply to almost everything you spend money on, so there’s no reason for the revenue senior governments get when you buy a car to be treated differently than if you bought a boat, or granite counter tops, or a diamond tiara.

And a fair analysis of the municipal equation should exclude not only sales taxes like PST or GST, which city councils get no share of, but also licence fees and most of the fuel taxes.

What’s left for cities to fund their extensive road networks?

“The short answer is: They’re paid for by property taxes,” says Jerry Dobrovolny, Vancouver’s director of transportation.

A longer answer qualifies this slightly. TransLink’s 15-cent-a-litre gas tax goes to transit, not roads, although the regional transportation agency does contribute to a small portion of Vancouver’s road-building.

Also, the province or the feds kick in on a few specific city road projects. But provincial per-capita road expenditures in Metro Vancouver average only half of what’s spent elsewhere in B.C., so only a tiny percentage of its road-related tax revenue winds up being spent here. And federal grants are few and far between.

That leaves just the net revenue from on-street parking — what’s left over from permit fees and parking meter receipts after paying for things like line-painting, enforcement and even the meters themselves. (Note that I didn’t include the value of land occupied by on-street parkers. Yet it could presumably be used for other things — wider sidewalks, street cafés or even, dare I say it, bike lanes.)

The point is that most of the burden, as Dobrovolny says, falls to property taxpayers — whether they drive a lot, a little, or not at all.

Certainly, Vancouver has more drivers than riders — about 12 times more in the city’s central core. But drivers have 10 times more roadway — 4,000 lane kilometres versus 400 — designed for their needs and devoted largely to their use. In fact, 20 per cent of these 4,000 kilometres is for parking, and thus exclusively for cars, while only 0.5 per cent of the total is for bikes only.

Also, Todd Litman of the Victoria Transport Institute notes that car lanes in North America typically cost about five times more to build than bike lanes. When you put it all together and do the math, Litman reckons the city’s road network costs every taxpayer a few hundred dollars a year.

“So your archetypical cyclist who doesn’t own a car is paying a couple of hundred a year, but imposing far less cost on the local government. They’re cross-subsidizing motorists.”

And while it’s true that motorists, mainly through gas tax, do pay a higher percentage of the cost of provincial roads than of city streets, “Cyclists don’t ride much on provincial highways.”

Of course, even on city streets, both the resident motorist and the resident cyclist are subsidizing all the people — drivers or riders — who live on the other side of a municipal boundary. In theory, residents of other municipalities reciprocate when Vancouver residents visit their towns, but in reality residents of the suburbs are more inclined to travel into Vancouver than vice versa.

And, Dobrovolny notes wryly, because of the distances involved for commuters from the suburbs, visitors to Vancouver are more likely to arrive by car than by bike. “So the cyclist you see is more likely to be a taxpayer who’s paying for the roads than the driver behind him.”

Litman has looked at what would happen if property taxes were lowered by the amount it costs to pay for city roads and the costs were shifted directly to the people — drivers or riders — who use them. For one thing, the cost of delivering goods to retailers in the city — a benefit to all of us, regardless of how much we use the roads — would go up. But not that much, he says.

“Even if some local authority doubled or tripled the cost of trucks on the roads, it would have an almost insignificant impact on most goods. The cost of local transportation is a small part of such costs. And the biggest part of it is the labour of the driver and the capital cost of the truck, and this wouldn’t change.”

As for the rest of us, “If we were to be truly fair about roadway costs, bicyclists would wind up paying a lot less rather than a lot more.”

Plus, of course, frequent drivers — especially out-of-towners — would pay a lot more.

[jgcanux]

Anyone used the next bus system, you text message translink and u get the bus schedule. im surprised how well it works lol

[inane]

More promises!

B.C.'s Premier Gordon Campbell promised municipal leaders on Friday that he'll move ahead with a host of major transportation projects, including extending the SkyTrain out to Langley.

Campbell was speaking to municipal leaders at the Union of B.C. Municipalities convention on Friday when he said his government wants to build on the Olympic momentum.

"It's time to get started doing a Skytrain to Langley City, which has planned itself to provide the opportunities for the future that are required to make sure transit works. It's time to get ready to build a rapid bus from Langley to Chilliwack. It's time to build rapid transit to UBC," said Campbell.

Campbell is also promising to expand rapid bus service in the Fraser Valley, the Okanagan and Victoria and upgrades to the Trans Canada Highway and routes 97, 3 and 16.

But the premier didn't budge on the HST, despite predictions by some opponents he might lower the tax. Instead, he urged everyone to learn about the issues and make informed choices in the province-wide referendum next year.

Some municipal leaders at the convention noted many of the promises included no indication as to how they would be funded and no deadlines were named. They were quick to point Campbell has already promised to extend the rapid transit line out to Coquitlam, but after years of delays, the project remains underfunded and construction has yet to begin.

[ronthecivil]

A timely article...

http://www.vancouver...7047/story.html

That last part is intriguing but I wonder how it would be done?

I have to say though, I love the idea of bike lanes, it's just the way they are being done that might be part of the problem.

And it should be mentioned that all those workers and businesses that those suburbians are flocking to generate a lot of tax revenue for the city.

And of course the damn feds are siphoning off gas taxes and giving next to nothing in return.

Either way, a move to a rational pricing system for all modes of travel where it was fair and clear would probably reduce the amount of griping than the behind the scenes dollar shifting that is in place.

[canucks_dynasty]

That last part is intriguing but I wonder how it would be done?

I have to say though, I love the idea of bike lanes, it's just the way they are being done that might be part of the problem.

And it should be mentioned that all those workers and businesses that those suburbians are flocking to generate a lot of tax revenue for the city.

And of course the damn feds are siphoning off gas taxes and giving next to nothing in return.

Either way, a move to a rational pricing system for all modes of travel where it was fair and clear would probably reduce the amount of griping than the behind the scenes dollar shifting that is in place.

I think that might open a whole new can of worms.

I think mass transit is the way to go instead of a few bike lanes. You want people out of cars...give them better transit. Not everyone is going to bike to work when they live outside of Vancouver, have kids to drop off for morning practice, etc.

[ronthecivil]

I think that might open a whole new can of worms.

I think mass transit is the way to go instead of a few bike lanes. You want people out of cars...give them better transit. Not everyone is going to bike to work when they live outside of Vancouver, have kids to drop off for morning practice, etc.

Thinking like that would have you putting paint and signs on the Burrard Bridge/street to increase the speed and capacity of the often jam packed busses instead of catering to the smallest minority at high cost. That won't get you into city hall!

[The Situation]

Anyone used the next bus system, you text message translink and u get the bus schedule. im surprised how well it works lol

It is alright but sometimes it can be off by a few minutes. I think it was in Toronto where they have GPS on the buses.

[luongoisdaman]

It is alright but sometimes it can be off by a few minutes. I think it was in Toronto where they have GPS on the buses.

I haven't had any problems whatsoever with the timings of the busses.

If it says 8:28 AM, then it arrives at 8:28 AM.

[silverpig]

I haven't had any problems whatsoever with the timings of the busses.

If it says 8:28 AM, then it arrives at 8:28 AM.

You don't live near the 16 then

[The Situation]

I hope UBC doesn't get stuck on the backburner in place of Surrey.

Gordon Campbell announces push on major transportation projects

By Jeff Lee, Vancouver Sun October 1, 2010

WHISTLER - Premier Gordon Campbell said his government will push ahead on planning for a number of major transportation and transit improvements around B.C., including rapid transit and bus projects in Vancouver, Surrey, Langley and major Interior and Vancouver Island communities.

In a speech Friday to the Union of B.C. Municipalities convention that drew heavily on the memories of the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics and included an apology for bumbling the announcement of the Harmonized Sales Tax, Campbell offered few details about his plans to advance a number of previously-announced projects.

He said it was "time to push ahead" and take advantage of the Olympic momentum with those projects, including the next phase of the Cariboo Connector and improvements to some of the province's major arterial highways.

He told reporters later most of the projects will be funded through Partnerships BC, the government agency that links businesses with government projects worth more than $50 million each. But he said he's been pushing cities like Vancouver and Langley to decide what kind of technologies and alignments they want.

Vancouver is considering rapid transit - either bus or SkyTrain-style rail - to UBC and Langley wants a SkyTrain extension from Surrey.

But it was his comments around the HST that made some in the audience perk up. After spending 20 minutes waxing about his fond memories of the Olympics, Campbell likened the HST announcement in 2008 as a bumbled skating performance with Finance Minister Colin Hansen.

"To put it charitably, the way we introduced and communicated the HST didn't exactly forge the gold medal standard for public support and understanding," he said. "We threw the HST up in the air and promptly fell flat on our faces. Some people said the only thing we'd accomplished was the death spiral."

Campbell said he'll respect the outcome of the HST referendum called for Sept. 24, 2011.

"If 51 per cent of British Columbians say it is better to go back, to restore the Provincial Sales Tax, we'll follow that," he said. It's your call. For one day in 2011, every eligible voter in B.C. gets to be minister of finance."

But he warned people to think about the consequences of unwinding the tax. Over one million low-income people who now get a quarterly HST rebate cheque would no longer get them. The health of the province's industries, from forestry to tourism to mining and fishing would all be set back in a province that has "laid a foundation to be one of the most competitive taxation regimes in the world," he insisted."

Campbell's speech lacked the kind of major announcements he's been known to make at the annual UBCM, one of his major opportunities to connect by proxy with voters around the province. But he did hand out a few goodies, including $1 million each for three interior pine beetle kill committees trying to diversify their economies. The province will also give $1 million for celebration plazas to every community that holds the B.C. Summer and Winter Games.

A permanent criminal records check registry will coordinate information for volunteer-dependent organizations and people will get those checks for free.

And Campbell announced that three totem poles have been commissioned for the Legislature that will honor the history and memory of the Vancouver Olympics.

The premier's speech wasn't heard by the large throngs of municipal politicians who in the past have crowded into the assembly hall to hear him speak. This time, there were many empty chairs and he received only sometimes desultory and periodic applause.

That image, and the fact the premier spent nearly a third of his speech musing about the Olympics wasn't lost on NDP House Leader Mike Farnworth.

"This struck me as a farewell speech to the UBCM, that it was a speech that was looking back and that this was a premier who was not intending the UBCM next year," Farnworth said. "It was a looking-back speech in which the premier wanted to get us in a time machine and get us back to February and remind us how great we felt . . .The trouble is British Columbians want to feel proud about government today and right now they don't."

jefflee@vancouversun.com

Twitter: @sunciviclee

Blog: www.vancouversun.com/jefflee

Among the projects the government said are on the advanced planning list:

* Extending SkyTrain through Surrey to Langley.

* RapidBus service to Chilliwack.

* Extending rapid transit to the University of British Columbia.

* Expanding RapidBus service from Kelowna to West Kelowna and in Greater Victoria.

* Expanding public transit in Prince George, Kamloops, Nanaimo and Courtenay-Comox.

* Fast-tracking the Cariboo Connector.

* Major improvements to portions of Highways 97, 16, 3 and the Trans-Canada Highway.

The province said it will also:

* Stop the "unabated decommissioning of resource roads so citizens can continue to safely use them as links to the backcountry."

* Provide more money for cycling paths and sidewalks

* Launch a new multi-year tourism and investment marketing plan.

* Extend the Additional Hotel Room Tax program beyond June 30, 2011.

© Copyright © The Vancouver Sun

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Gordon+Campbell+announces+push+major+transportation+projects/3611432/story.html#ixzz11Hf4IF1N

[MikeGillis58]

Why do all the Surrey kids wear Affliction clothing? I was riding the Skytrain from Surrey Central last Friday night at around 11:30pm.

[tom_1]

Kind of silly for the skybridge to connect to only 4 stations in Surrey; Although connecting it to langley is kinda ridicilious.

Priorities should be

-Skytrain to UBC

-Skytrain connecting Whalley to Guildford to King George/152th street.

-Light rail from Langley to Surrey connecting cloverdale, Newton, North Delta, Scott Road. Instead of a 1 billion dollar price tag it could be brought down to $200 million. But Campbell seems to have a huge bias for skytrain.

[inane]

I already posted that empty promise on friday.

It's meaningless seeing as it has been 10 years of promising to build the evergreen line and it *might* only get started next year. I talked with someone from translink, they have no money for the evergreen line much less the already promised pattulo--there's on way the ubc line or langley line is getting built short of some massive federal or provincial monies coming in.

just empty promises from a dying leader. don't let the car door hit you on the way out to the pub campbell....