The Official Transit Thread

[inane]

Here's a little reminder for you.

Top % of growth 2006-2011

Port Moody 19.9

Surrey 18.6

UBC/Electoral Area A 17.9

Anmore 17.2

Pitt Meadows 13.5

New Westminster 12.7

Langley Town 11.2

Coquitlam 10.4

Maple Ridge 10.3

Burnaby 10.1

2 of 10 south of the fraser. (next are Richmond and PoCo as well)

[inane]

Which reminds me. How much more or less in per capita funding does Surrey get in comparison to Vancouver for road and highway construction and improvements? What's the per capita cost to get other key infrastructure out there (water, electricity, etc.)? I imagine these costs are greater if the people are spread farther apart.

Not even close of course.

And yes, servicing is a massive cost. Look at the Anniedale/Tynehead plan in Surrey. Way out in the middle of nowhere--it's going to cost millions and millions to service.

[ronthecivil]

Here's a little reminder for you.

Top % of growth 2006-2011

Port Moody 19.9

Surrey 18.6

UBC/Electoral Area A 17.9

Anmore 17.2

Pitt Meadows 13.5

New Westminster 12.7

Langley Town 11.2

Coquitlam 10.4

Maple Ridge 10.3

Burnaby 10.1

2 of 10 south of the fraser. (next are Richmond and PoCo as well)

Port Moody is getting a transit line (they could even cut TWO stations off of evergreen while still meeting Port Moodys goals and having a West Coast express connection).

Surrey, which in addition to being second fastest growing AND second biggest overall (probably already first due to underreporting) is getting nothing.

UBC electoral area A already has transit and it's new residents will be using existing capacity going the other way.

Anmore is still a tiny village on Indian arm.

Pitt Meadows has west coast express which will soon have a general connection to the rest of the skytrain system. If they don't have their own BLine bus down Laughead for the rest of the time I would agree they could use one.

New West has skytrain already and it's good news they are growing.

Langley has even worse service than Surrey.

Coquitlam has Blines and soon sktrain.

Maple Ridge like Pitt Meadows has West Coast Express but should have express buses on the same route the rest of the time.

Burnaby has two skytrain lines.

So out of that list the areas needing significant attention in order would be Surrey, Langely, Maple Ridge, and Pitt Meadows. All of those areas should be expected to continue growing significantly.

[ronthecivil]

Which reminds me. How much more or less in per capita funding does Surrey get in comparison to Vancouver for road and highway construction and improvements? What's the per capita cost to get other key infrastructure out there (water, electricity, etc.)? I imagine these costs are greater if the people are spread farther apart.

Road improvements are something like 10% of translinks budget.

There's a new Port Mann Bridge coming but that's getting a toll. Ditto Putello.

What I would like to see is what portion of funding comes from south of fraser vs. what is spent!

[ronthecivil]

Not even close of course.

And yes, servicing is a massive cost. Look at the Anniedale/Tynehead plan in Surrey. Way out in the middle of nowhere--it's going to cost millions and millions to service.

Sure but Surrey pays for it's own services. If not they should be I agree.

But even if not it wouldn't make up for the massive shortfall in transit funding vs. revenue.

[ronthecivil]

Don't many Surreyites work there too?

Unless you happen to live in Surrey city centre (which I wouldn't wish on anyone) then getting to skytrain is no easy matter. Even if I get a ride directly to skytrain (in a car) from which point it's a trip on the skytrain it's still faster to drive the whole way, even with the bridges and the congestion.

The reason for this is that Surrey city centre is a traffic nightmare.

So even if there were express buses (as opposed to the existing milk run options) getting to skytrain is not exactly easy for the majority of south of Fraser residents. That's why I suggest pushing it out to 152nd and Fraser where you could have a massive bus exchange outside the congested core.

[Buggernut]

Port Moody is getting a transit line (they could even cut TWO stations off of evergreen while still meeting Port Moodys goals and having a West Coast express connection).

Surrey, which in addition to being second fastest growing AND second biggest overall (probably already first due to underreporting) is getting nothing.

Surrey had its turn in the 80's when the Expo Line got built that way, and that's got to be a huge catalyst to its current growth.

It's now the Tri-Cities' turn.

[Buggernut]

Road improvements are something like 10% of translinks budget.

How about the MoT in general? Or their transfer payments to municipalities?

As for other infrastructure, isn't water a flat unmetered rate wherever you live, and doesn't Hydro charge the same rate per kWh?

[ronthecivil]

Surrey had its turn in the 80's when the Expo Line got built that way, and that's got to be a huge catalyst to its current growth.

It's now the Tri-Cities' turn.

If we are using the Surrey standard for skytrain the try cities already have skytrain! There's a station at Laughhead! And one on Braid!

Not bad bus service connecting it too! Heck, there's even a Bline bus to Coquitlam centre!

Bus service in Surrey (the second largest and fastest growing) to get to said skytrain (in the extreme north west corner) is HORRENDOUS!

[ronthecivil]

How about the MoT in general? Or their transfer payments to municipalities?

As for other infrastructure, isn't water a flat unmetered rate wherever you live, and doesn't Hydro charge the same rate per kWh?

I dunno. Seperate issues.

There is a very large MOT project coming but it's not going to be free!

This is the transit thread and one thing is certain, the amount of money I put in is NOT reflected, even remotely, in the services provided.....

[inane]

Surrey had its turn in the 80's when the Expo Line got built that way, and that's got to be a huge catalyst to its current growth.

It's now the Tri-Cities' turn.

True lol, Ron goes on about how low density around 29th Ave proves Vancouver isn't worthy yet Surrey Central sat fallow for 25 years with skytrain sitting there...

[ronthecivil]

True lol, Ron goes on about how low density around 29th Ave proves Vancouver isn't worthy yet Surrey Central sat fallow for 25 years with skytrain sitting there...

It's at least trending in the right direction. Oh, and it's been 18 years and not exactly a desirable neighbourhood. Things don't always happen overnight but at least they are trying....

And I am not saying Vancouver isn't worthy of skytrain. They are. Hence the three different lines.

And as much as I would want skytrain to go all the way to Willowbrook Mall I know that ain't happening.

Heck, as much as I say extending expo line to 152nd would be a good idea I know I am dreaming.

And as much as translink likes to promise express buses down Fraser and King George Highways I know better than to fall for that game of keep away (where they have once again taken them off the table due to funding shortfalls as per the global morning news on monday).

In fact I expect a never ending list of ideas to improve the north side of the river while the south languishes.

Hence my desire for the entire south of fraser to just leave translink and the GVRD. If the north wants to toll us to enter we can return the favor and charge every vehicle coming the other way ten times the toll.

The one way funding model needs to stop.

Edited March 27, 2012 by ronthecivil

[Buggernut]

If we are using the Surrey standard for skytrain the try cities already have skytrain! There's a station at Laughhead! And one on Braid!

Not bad bus service connecting it too! Heck, there's even a Bline bus to Coquitlam centre!

Extending Skytrain to Coquitlam Centre also reaches out to the East of Pitt crowd.

That was a nice Skybridge that was built your way, btw.

[ronthecivil]

Extending Skytrain to Coquitlam Centre also reaches out to the East of Pitt crowd.

That was a nice Skybridge that was built your way, btw.

And the trains are jam packed going over it so it's going to be a net revenue generator. That's a lot of fares.

That's right. Despite being terrible the system is still super packed. Nothing like standing for an hour on a milk run bus!

Anyone that claims that Surrey (or Langely) is getting anything remotely close to bang for it's transit buck is either lying or delusional.

Either way everyone I talk to (south of the river) thinks pulling out of translink is an excellent idea.

[inane]

Ron--

http://www.southfraser.net/2011/10/exclusive-langley-getting-more-from.html

[silverpig]

Port Moody is getting a transit line (they could even cut TWO stations off of evergreen while still meeting Port Moodys goals and having a West Coast express connection).

Surrey, which in addition to being second fastest growing AND second biggest overall (probably already first due to underreporting) is getting nothing.

UBC electoral area A already has transit and it's new residents will be using existing capacity going the other way.

Anmore is still a tiny village on Indian arm.

Pitt Meadows has west coast express which will soon have a general connection to the rest of the skytrain system. If they don't have their own BLine bus down Laughead for the rest of the time I would agree they could use one.

New West has skytrain already and it's good news they are growing.

Langley has even worse service than Surrey.

Coquitlam has Blines and soon sktrain.

Maple Ridge like Pitt Meadows has West Coast Express but should have express buses on the same route the rest of the time.

Burnaby has two skytrain lines.

So out of that list the areas needing significant attention in order would be Surrey, Langely, Maple Ridge, and Pitt Meadows. All of those areas should be expected to continue growing significantly.

Surrey has 4 skytrain stations already.

Besides, Surrey is large enough that you can deal with it in neighbourhoods. North Surrey has 4 skytrain stations and quite a lot of buses running to Surrey Central. If you chose to live in North Surrey, you'd be fine, but you choose to live way out south.

You want skytrain down to South Surrey and use the contributions of the entire city to justify it. That isn't the way to go. How much does South Surrey contribute? Why does it deserve transit over say, Tsawwassen? Steveston? UBC?

What's the population of Semiahmoo? How many commuters travel there on a daily basis?

100,000 people travel to UBC every day. It's the second largest transit destination in the region next to downtown. There are a number of express buses, b-lines, and regular buses that travel there, and during peak times there are pass-ups. Those bus lines get close to breaking even if they don't make money. Some of the most highly subsidized transit in all of Translink is in South Surrey because the density and ridership levels are so low. If a b-line gets built, are they going to be able to fill the buses to the rafters with a b-line every 7 minutes?

It just doesn't make sense to spend $2B to bring skytrain to semiahmoo. For that price, they could take the 4000 people there who might use it every day and buy them each a condo downtown.

[ronthecivil]

Ron--

http://www.southfras...-more-from.html

So if you include the bridge Langley is getting a ton of stuff free.

If you don't include (the regional) bridge then langley is barely getting just over 50 cents on the dollar.

Buddy should be including maple ridge and pitt meadows in the equation if you want to include the bridge for some reason.

However as soon as tolls start on the Port Mann watch how fast that bridge fills up with people that can no longer go around.

----------------------------------------------------

Now imagine the same thing for surrey. I bet the numbers are worse. Would Surrey have to bear the price of the Golden Ears bridge as well?

And of course, once the tolled Port Mann, followed by Putello open up? There's going to be so much profit from the bridges that it will make the losses on the first toll bridge seem insignficant.

----------------------

Now imagine the numbers for White rock. All the buses stop on the edge of town (well some go one block in). The white rock bus exchange is in Surrey! I wonder how well we turn out!

[ronthecivil]

Surrey has 4 skytrain stations already.

Besides, Surrey is large enough that you can deal with it in neighbourhoods. North Surrey has 4 skytrain stations and quite a lot of buses running to Surrey Central. If you chose to live in North Surrey, you'd be fine, but you choose to live way out south.

You want skytrain down to South Surrey and use the contributions of the entire city to justify it. That isn't the way to go. How much does South Surrey contribute? Why does it deserve transit over say, Tsawwassen? Steveston? UBC?

What's the population of Semiahmoo? How many commuters travel there on a daily basis?

100,000 people travel to UBC every day. It's the second largest transit destination in the region next to downtown. There are a number of express buses, b-lines, and regular buses that travel there, and during peak times there are pass-ups. Those bus lines get close to breaking even if they don't make money. Some of the most highly subsidized transit in all of Translink is in South Surrey because the density and ridership levels are so low. If a b-line gets built, are they going to be able to fill the buses to the rafters with a b-line every 7 minutes?

It just doesn't make sense to spend $2B to bring skytrain to semiahmoo. For that price, they could take the 4000 people there who might use it every day and buy them each a condo downtown.

I would be happy with the express buses to at least get to north surrey where the skytrain is. You know, the ones that were promised five years ago. Adding ONE skytrain station would be flat out awesome to get out of the congestion in the downtown area.

South Surrey and White Rock pay a ton in taxes and apart from service to downtown via the Canada line (which is decent) bus service to anywhere else is rediculous. If they were seperated out the numbers would be worse.

Keep in mind that shortly the south fraser (or will it be north fraser, either way) screen line will be going in. Make no mistake, once they see what a mess of traffic it makes only tolling the Port Mann then they will HAVE to toll all the way to the Pacific or those other routes (which are already a mess) will be a super mess from people dodging the tolls.

I understand that UBC is a high priority transit wise, but there simply isn't the money to build a rapid transit line that way. Nor is their the public support. Do you really think they want another cut and cover tunnel across town? Even a bored tunnel (which is idiotic if not needed) would have massive disruptions at every station location which tends to be at the major intersections. Why should we spend a ton of money on something that is not supported when the existing service could easily meet demand by simply taking away some parking and turning it into bus lanes?

So how about this. No more taxes. Fit the evergreen funding envelope by eliminating the douglas college stop and segment. Start the King George and Fraser Highway Bline buses.

When the toll revenue starts piling in we can extend expo to 152 and get bus lanes on those routes.

Once all that's done and there's extra money, THEN perhaps consider doing something out to UBC.

Oh, and when the tolls go in on the south of fraser put one more around the downtown core.

OR BETER YET!

The south of fraser pulls out of translink, makes it's own transit area, and we use all the bridge crossing tolls to fund things south of the river and the north side can do what it wants.

[inane]

So if you include the bridge Langley is getting a ton of stuff free.

If you don't include (the regional) bridge then langley is barely getting just over 50 cents on the dollar.

Buddy should be including maple ridge and pitt meadows in the equation if you want to include the bridge for some reason.

However as soon as tolls start on the Port Mann watch how fast that bridge fills up with people that can no longer go around.

----------------------------------------------------

Now imagine the same thing for surrey. I bet the numbers are worse. Would Surrey have to bear the price of the Golden Ears bridge as well?

And of course, once the tolled Port Mann, followed by Putello open up? There's going to be so much profit from the bridges that it will make the losses on the first toll bridge seem insignficant.

----------------------

Now imagine the numbers for White rock. All the buses stop on the edge of town (well some go one block in). The white rock bus exchange is in Surrey! I wonder how well we turn out!

ok Ron. Agree to disagree, sort of. I mean I'm with you, but not at the expense of other needed projects. It's not either or for me--It's all.

[ronthecivil]

ok Ron. Agree to disagree, sort of. I mean I'm with you, but not at the expense of other needed projects. It's not either or for me--It's all.

Even my cadilac plan of extending expo one stop and putting in BLine services (from 152nd and Fraser you could really make a heck of a bus hub) wouldn't be THAT expensive.