Jiggs50 Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 53 minutes ago, Watermelon said: Also another + for Kobe is defense. Lebrons lockdown rep is a facade. He hovers and rarely gaurds the top player 1 on 1 that's why hes free to grab easy boards which can lead to fastbreak points or assists. You just described the defensive player of the year, Draymond Green... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 14 minutes ago, Jiggs50 said: You wanna win? Lebron's led his team to a victory in the finals 3 times. Kobe only did it twice. Just in general he's been regarded as most valuable only 1 time compared 4 for James. Isn't that difference between Crobsy and Toews?? Lebron's an underrated shooter. Better 3 pt% than Kobe. Lebron gets easy layups and easy fast break points because he's such a great athlete and has such a high basketball iq. Jordan was same the way. Kobe for the early part of his career too. It's just that Lebron is at the highest level ever athleticism wise (behind Wilt I guess) and has sustained it for longer than Kobe. Which is a huge plus for James. Both Kobe and Lebron are overrated defenders. They have way too many all defensive teams. Kobe was definitely the better on ball defender. He was always a capable defender no matter what wing he was facing. But off ball it's Lebron. He was a monster in the passing lanes and just the overall physicality he brought was great. He used to bully some guards like Rose and Rondo. Also kept up with little speedy guards like Westbrook and Parker. But it's a slight edge to Kobe I guess. MVP's mean nothing. Nash has 2 averaging like 16-12-3 while Shaq has 1 while averaging 28-14-3 for a decade while Kobe has 1 while averaging 28 ppg for 13 years. Curry also had 2, does that mean Curry>Shaq and Kobe? The 3 point% is skewed by the toughness of shots taken. Otto Porter shot 43% from three $&!# year while Curry shot 40%. Anyone would take Curry over Porter though because of the toughness and volume of Currys shots, same goes for Lebron and Kobe. Not saying that fastbreak point are useless or anything like that I'm just saying what if Lebron didn't hover and chase the board that the bigs were going to get either way? The big would pass it to a player running the break and the result is the same. While very few people in history can take the contested fading shots in a half court set that kobe take so without kobe, the lakers would suffer and without Lebron chasing every board and running every break the Cavs would not suffer nearly as much Hovering comes at a price though. When he faces potent sf checks he gives up too many points for it to be beneficial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 12 minutes ago, Jiggs50 said: You just described the defensive player of the year, Draymond Green... Draymond does it soo much better whiling also keeping his checks in line, Durant averaged what 35 on Lebron and Lebron wouldn't even guard Derozan or PG13 in earlier rounds so he could conserve energy to boost his offensive stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiggs50 Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, Watermelon said: MVP's mean nothing. Nash has 2 averaging like 16-12-3 while Shaq has 1 while averaging 28-14-3 for a decade while Kobe has 1 while averaging 28 ppg for 13 years. Curry also had 2, does that mean Curry>Shaq and Kobe? The 3 point% is skewed by the toughness of shots taken. Otto Porter shot 43% from three $&!# year while Curry shot 40%. Anyone would take Curry over Porter though because of the toughness and volume of Currys shots, same goes for Lebron and Kobe. Not saying that fastbreak point are useless or anything like that I'm just saying what if Lebron didn't hover and chase the board that the bigs were going to get either way? The big would pass it to a player running the break and the result is the same. While very few people in history can take the contested fading shots in a half court set that kobe take so without kobe, the lakers would suffer and without Lebron chasing every board and running every break the Cavs would not suffer nearly as much Hovering comes at a price though. When he faces potent sf checks he gives up too many points for it to be beneficial Mvps matter in the right context. A Difference of 1 or 2 is whatever. Difference of 3 (LBJ) or 4 (MJ) is telling. Durant is one if the most skilled players ever. Dude is 6'11 and can handle the ball like a pg and shoot like Curry. He used to eat Kobe alive too. It's just now KD's on GS. If you read his quote about him doing his part etc etc you would understand how Durant wanted nothing more than to be finals mvp. He played for stats lol. Btw Lebron averaged 34 and a triple double against Durant and he's viewed as a really good defender... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiggs50 Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, Watermelon said: Draymond does it soo much better whiling also keeping his checks in line, Durant averaged what 35 on Lebron and Lebron wouldn't even guard Derozan or PG13 in earlier rounds so he could conserve energy to boost his offensive stats Why throw your best player on the other teams best players who are going to tire him? Cleveland's winning those series easily so why tax Lebron? He's already playing 43 mins a game in those series. At the end of games and in crucial moments he usually picks up the best player most times. Lebron's slowing down defensively anyway cause of how much freaking basketball he's playing. 7 straight finals = a hell lot of games. Fatigue is bound to set in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Jiggs50 said: Mvps matter in the right context. A Difference of 1 or 2 is whatever. Difference of 3 (LBJ) or 4 (MJ) is telling. Durant is one if the most skilled players ever. Dude is 6'11 and can handle the ball like a pg and shoot like Curry. He used to eat Kobe alive too. It's just now KD's on GS. If you read his quote about him doing his part etc etc you would understand how Durant wanted nothing more than to be finals mvp. He played for stats lol. Btw Lebron averaged 34 and a triple double against Durant and he's viewed as a really good defender... Kobe and Shaq both deserved more than 1 mvp each. They could split Nashs two mvps and I'd be okay with that I have heard KD be called a good defender by anyone and I would not consider him anything other than about average. He's long and sometimes hovers like LEbron so thats why he got so many blocks this year but I wouldn't consider him lockdown by any means. Durant had to go all out or this guys legacy would be even more tainted. Look at the stat hunger Lebron has Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Jiggs50 said: Why throw your best player on the other teams best players who are going to tire him? Cleveland's winning those series easily so why tax Lebron? He's already playing 43 mins a game in those series. At the end of games and in crucial moments he usually picks up the best player most times. Lebron's slowing down defensively anyway cause of how much freaking basketball he's playing. 7 straight finals = a hell lot of games. Fatigue is bound to set in. Im just saying you can't compare Lebron to the dpoy or on a lesser scale Kobe when this guy takes nights off on D so often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 We both have our opinions and I'm never going to believe Lebron is better than Kobe or vice versa for yourself so lets just agree to disagree 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikhguy23 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 On 2017-07-08 at 2:23 PM, Nagra said: Lebron fans be like... Dude you're a clown, I already manhandled you in a conversation once, do you want to start again? You know nothing about basketball, go back to your hole or something 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikhguy23 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Watermelon said: We both have our opinions and I'm never going to believe Lebron is better than Kobe or vice versa for yourself so lets just agree to disagree 2 hours ago, Jiggs50 said: Why throw your best player on the other teams best players who are going to tire him? Cleveland's winning those series easily so why tax Lebron? He's already playing 43 mins a game in those series. At the end of games and in crucial moments he usually picks up the best player most times. Lebron's slowing down defensively anyway cause of how much freaking basketball he's playing. 7 straight finals = a hell lot of games. Fatigue is bound to set in. I liked reading this convo, both of you posted insightful arguments and backed them up best you could. This is what I like to see, not some stupid bias stuff, and memes and what not. Cheers 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHitman Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Watermelon said: Kobe and Shaq both deserved more than 1 mvp each. They could split Nashs two mvps and I'd be okay with that I have heard KD be called a good defender by anyone and I would not consider him anything other than about average. He's long and sometimes hovers like LEbron so thats why he got so many blocks this year but I wouldn't consider him lockdown by any means. Durant had to go all out or this guys legacy would be even more tainted. Look at the stat hunger Lebron has What? Why would they split Nash's MVPs? 2004-05 would go to Duncan, Garnett, or Iverson and 2005-06 would go to Duncan, Wade, Iverson, or LBJ if they didn't go to Nash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sikhguy23 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Watermelon said: Im just saying you can't compare Lebron to the dpoy or on a lesser scale Kobe when this guy takes nights off on D so often Kobe was consistently getting knocked out in the playoffs, hence he had to play less games and minutes every year. Not defending Lebron for taking possessions off, but it's easy to justify why he does it. Edited July 10, 2017 by Sikhguy23 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, TheHitman said: What? Why would they split Nash's MVPs? 2004-05 would go to Duncan, Garnett, or Iverson and 2005-06 would go to Duncan, Wade, Iverson, or LBJ if they didn't go to Nash. I just meant to say Shaq and Kobe deserved more MVP's throughout their dominant careers but if anyone deserved that 06 MVP it was Kobe imo. He put up one of the best statistical season in history. 35 pgg in a league where the avg team scored 97(mj for comparison put up 37 in a league averaging 108 ppg). That MVP was his had his team been better but Lebron was second in MVP voting that year and his team only won 5 more games. Nash really didn't deserve either mvp really if you look at all the other players that had great season those years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said: Kobe was consistently getting knocked out in the playoffs, hence he had to play less games and minutes every year. Not defending Lebron for taking possessions off, but it's easy to see why he does it. Yeah I guess. Kobe would have much better stats had he not been injured for hundreds of games in his career. He played through seasons while needing surgery for numerous injuries too. The guy was too determined to play meaningless reg season game lol but gotta love the mentality. Other than the Shaq era Lakers, Lebron has had better teams and played in the easier conf so that might be another reason as to why he did played more po games Edited July 10, 2017 by Watermelon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHitman Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, Watermelon said: I just meant to say Shaq and Kobe deserved more MVP's throughout their dominant careers but if anyone deserved that 06 MVP it was Kobe imo. He put up one of the best statistical season in history. 35 pgg in a league where the avg team scored 97(mj for comparison put up 37 in a league averaging 108 ppg). That MVP was his had his team been better but Lebron was second in MVP voting that year and his team only won 5 more games. Nash really didn't deserve either mvp really if you look at all the other players that had great season those years Kobe can't even pass why would he be MVP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, TheHitman said: Kobe can't even pass why would he be MVP? Hes #29 on all time assist(#2 for non-point guards only lebron is higher) so pls stop Edited July 10, 2017 by Watermelon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHitman Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Watermelon said: Hes #29 on all time assist(#2 for non-point guards only lebron is higher) so pls stop What about APG? Kobe played forever, he should be much higher on that all-time assists list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivethej Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 trades Raps made are these "culture change" Ujiri was alluding too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, TheHitman said: What about APG? Kobe played forever, he should be much higher on that all-time assists list. MJ got .6 more apg... how do you feel about him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watermelon Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Just now, fivethej said: 2 trades Raps made are these "culture change" Ujiri was alluding too? They're trying to get rid of JV too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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