The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

[Ruthervin]

7 minutes ago, Petterson649 said:

Hughes is the most overrated player on this Canucks team. I would rather have a number 1 defenseman who can put up 40 points and plays exception defense than our boy Hughes who puts up 80 points but is complete shit at defending and weak af on the boards

I pretty much agree with you here.  To me, Hughes is the type of guy that can make a good top pairing (and team for that matter) great, but he doesnt have the ability to make a mediocre pairing good.  
 

Hughes isn’t a true top pairing dman in my opinion.  Hughes needs that true elite top pairing anchor/rock that can help minimize Hughes’ shortcomings while also helping him maximize his offensive prowess. 
 

I think a guy like Dobson has potential to become like that……and perhaps same for guys like Jiriceck and Nemac.   But again - the problem with fantasizing about those guys, is that Horvat and Miller aren’t going to get you those guys.  The only guy capable of landing you those pieces is Elias Pettersson…….and one reason why I don’t feel 100% guilty about talking about moving Petey, is because I’m not entirely sold on the fact that Petey will want to stay here once he becomes an RFA.

[J-23]

1 hour ago, Ruthervin said:

You’re 100% correct but think about this:

 

1) A guy like that - what could he fetch us in terms of grade A elite young players who are in that 20-23 range?  For example, if we’re talking Columbus, wouldn’t we be able to get both Kent Johnson and David Jiricek?

 

2) As awful as the Canucks have been, we’ve seen how even worse they’ve been without Petey in the line-up……meaning, that the Canucks could realistically fall at or close to the bottom of the league without Pettersson which would ultimately mean that we could possibly draft Bedard, Fantilini, etc.

 

So with a Pettersson deal, not only would land some ELITE young players in that 20-23 range (something that Horvat won’t get you), but the loss of Petey would likely drop us at or near the bottom of the standings which would greatly increase our chances of landing a Bedard, Fantilini, etc.

No thanks.

[TripleSedins]

On 12/17/2022 at 4:12 PM, Ruthervin said:

The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

 

The “narrative” amongst many media members and fans is that the Canucks should build around Pettersson, Demko, and Hughes while attempting to trade pretty much anyone else (ie Horvat, Kuzmenko, Garland, and Miller/OEL/Boeser if they are at all moveable).   The problem with that strategy however is as follows:

 

1) If the Canucks choose to do a rebuild, you will waste the prime years of Hughes and Demko where they are on good cap hits.  By the time the Canucks were to emerge out of a retool, guys like Hughes and Demko would be at or near contract expiration.   
 

2) If the Canucks go through another rebuild, there’s a risk that Pettersson will not want to stay here, and will pull a Matt Tkachuk.  Yes, JP Barry went on the air yesterday and mentioned that Petey loves it here, and sees the Matt Barzal contract as a comparable, but there are no guarantees.  Petey has also stated in the past that he wants to win a cup and that if he doesn’t feel the organization is progressing, he’d consider all options (didn’t say this explicitly but rather implied it).

 

3) Guys like Garland, OEL, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Miller were specifically brought in here and/or signed here because they were lead to believe that the Canucks would be pushing towards being competitive and pushing towards being a playoff team.  IF Rutherford-Alvin went off in a different direction at this point, it would send a TERRIBLE message to these players, as well as future free agents. Like it or not, the Canucks made their decision about this organization with the Miller signing.  With Miller and OEL here for the long term and basically being almost impossible to move, the Canucks have to push forward with this core:

 

[b]Now, you may be asking, “well what the hell does this have to do with wanting to keep Horvat over Pettersson?” [/b]

 

The answer is as follows:   The Canucks biggest organizational weakness right now is their team structure. Although they are very deep up front, many of these forwards aren’t very good on the back check….which is problematic since our defense is very anemic…..which ultimately results in the Canucks giving uo and inordinately high number of high danger chances.  The ONLY way to fix this deep structural flaw is to acquire an elite top pairing right handed defenseman that can not only help elevate Hughes to the top pairing but can also serve as that “shut down” all situations horse that can minimize Hughes’ weaknesses while maximizing Hughes strengths.  A younger version of Chris Tanev……the Brent Seabrook to Quinn Hughes’ Duncan Keith if you will.  The Canucks need someone like Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider (I won’t mention Moritz Seider because he’s untouchable now), and the only guy that the Canucks have that can acquire such a piece is Elias Pettersson.  
 

While a guy like Horvat will fetch you a 1st rounder and a decent prospect, he’s not going to fetch you the next Brent Seabrook which is EXACTLY what this team needs both short term and long term.  With the Canucks being structurally flawed, it wouldn’t matter if we had Connor McDavid in this team (instead of Horvat).  Hell, it wouldn’t even matter if the Canucks had a very deep prospect pool.  The Canucks, as they are right now, would be doomed to fail because of their tire fire defense.  The only way to fix that is to trade Pettersson for an elite RD.  By doing that, it would create a rippling effect.  
 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
OEL-Bear

Schenn-Myers

 

With [PetterssonTrade], you’d elevate Hughes to the top pairing and have a guy that would help maximize Hughes’ strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  Similar to what Chris Tanev did in 2019-2020.  OEL-Bear would then avoid taking on the toughest match ups while Schenn could help carry Myers on the 3rd pairing.  Eventually, once Pearson and Myers come off the books, you could have the following structure:

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

You can sign a good 2nd pairing dman to play with Bear on the 2nd pairing while OEL can play on the 3rd pairing with someone cheap.

 

Defensive structure problem solved.

 

Now, up front?  At center, I would roll with the following:   
 

#####-Horvat#####
#####-Miller-#####
#####-New 3rd line C####
 

Yes, Horvat and Miller as your 1-2 punch down the middle wouldn’t be elite, but it would still be pretty solid….and if the Canucks were to somehow acquire a decent 3rd line center (which is WAY easier than acquiring an elite top pairing RD), then the Canucks would be a very balanced team…..a team that could choose to roll four lines instead of being too heavy.   
 

So, this is what I ultimately propose:

 

1) Trade Pettersson for an elite top pairing RD and a decent 3rd line center. Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider.  So maybe, Pettersson and Schenn for Braden Schneider and Filip Chytl or Pettersson and Schenn for Noah Dobson and Jean Gabriel Pageau.

 

2) Sign Horvat 

 

3) Sign Kuzmenko

 

4) Trade Boeser for a 3rd line center if you don’t trade for a 3rd line C in my 1st move.  So maybe Boeser to Montreal for Monahan if we don’t get Chytyl or Pageau.

 

5) Trade Connor Garland for a draft pick.  This will give us cap space

 

6) If we don’t trade Luke Schenn in my first idea, then move Schenn for a draft pick at the deadline. 
 

7) In the off-season, consider using a sweetener to move Myers and use that money on a good defenseman that can play with Bear on the 2nd pairing.

 

New future lines:

 

Kuzmenko-Horvat-Lazar

Mikheyev-Miller-Hoglander

Pearson-[BoeserTrade]-Podkolzin

#####-Aman-Joshua

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

Demko

Martin

 

 

In general, I feel the organization made a massive blunder when we changed from a defense first organization to an offense driven team. At the time it made sense, but it backfired because we were and are still not able to match the offensive prowess that other organizations have achieved. In other word we were not able to match the gains of other teams in order to stay competitive. 

 

I don't mind Pettersson, I feel he is like having two Sedins in one package. We never got far in the playoffs based solely on the Sedins so I wouldn't expect Pettersson is "THE" difference maker. 

 

Over the past 10 years the push to have a high action/impact team that is "fun to watch" has cost us. The flawed lack of direction from the organization has set us back to square one. We are in a rebuild if we like it or not, so come up with a plan that can see us win some hockey games on a consistent basis. 

One idea is:

Trade Pettersson, for an appropriate value D pairing for Hughes 

Trade Boeser for an solid young 3rd line center and picks
Trade Miller at this TD for a high value pick

Trade Hoglander (use as icing on cake in a trade scenario)
Resign Horvat, Kuzmenko 
Resign serviceable veterans to lower cost contracts (Schenn, Pearson) for depth

Draft players with: 

1. Great skating ability

2. Size/Grit is important

3. Good two way hockey sense

 

Pure goal scorers seem easier to come by these days (Eg...Toffoli). 

Edited January 9, 2023 by TripleSedins

[Westcoasting]

10 hours ago, TripleSedins said:

In general, I feel the organization made a massive blunder when we changed from a defense first organization to an offense driven team. At the time it made sense, but it backfired because we were and are still not able to match the offensive prowess that other organizations have achieved. In other word we were not able to match the gains of other teams in order to stay competitive. 

 

I don't mind Pettersson, I feel he is like having two Sedins in one package. We never got far in the playoffs based solely on the Sedins so I wouldn't expect Pettersson is "THE" difference maker. 

 

Over the past 10 years the push to have a high action/impact team that is "fun to watch" has cost us. The flawed lack of direction from the organization has set us back to square one. We are in a rebuild if we like it or not, so come up with a plan that can see us win some hockey games on a consistent basis. 

One idea is:

Trade Pettersson, for an appropriate value D pairing for Hughes 

Trade Boeser for an solid young 3rd line center and picks
Trade Miller at this TD for a high value pick

Trade Hoglander (use as icing on cake in a trade scenario)
Resign Horvat, Kuzmenko 
Resign serviceable veterans to lower cost contracts (Schenn, Pearson) for depth

Draft players with: 

1. Great skating ability

2. Size/Grit is important

3. Good two way hockey sense

 

Pure goal scorers seem easier to come by these days (Eg...Toffoli). 

When did we change from defense first?

Edited January 10, 2023 by Westcoasting

[Sativika]

Do you guys think Petey is really that impatient to win a SC? I think he's got a good enough head on his shoulders to know this team is a ways off to SC contention. Probably would like to win more games. But that goes without saying to any NHL player. It seems to me that he's willing to be in it for the long haul. The Avs championship took 'em 8 years since they got Nathan MacKinnon 1st overall.

 

The consensus seems to be that Petey is our legitimate superstar to help bring us to the promised land. However needless to say, we are in dire need of other star type players in all positions. Especially on D. 

 

As mentioned previously in this and other threads of this ilk; we gotta move on from players that no longer fit our profile. No need to repeat who they are. To me, the real keepers on this team are Petey, Huggy, Kuz and maybe Demmer, Pods, Bear.....yet to be determined is Hogs and other prospects we've been trying out throughout this season. And let's not forget our projects; Klimovich, Lekkerramaki, Boner, and prospects we're high on, but not necessarily in love with, Bains, Di Giuseppe, Karlsson, E. Petttersson, and others.

 

With somewhat promising prospects, and the addition of the more picks acquired from trades, we just might get ourselves a Noah Dobson type in trade. And any of the first five to ten 1st rounders or so would net us a significant player. Of course Bedard would be the most desired.

[TripleSedins]

20 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

When did we change from defense first?

I feel it began after the WCE era which was built (according to GM interviews of Burke at the time) goal tending outwards. 

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