2023 Frank J. Selke Trophy finalists unveiled

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

18 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

Bergeron was a beast defensively but he was not miles ahead of everyone else like the voting suggested.. he plays significantly less minutes than all of his competitor 3mins+.. if anything Nico Hischier should have been a close second and gotten 30-40% of the 1st place votes and not an almost unanimous 1st place for bergeron.. he also wasn't leaned on as much defensively as his competitions and have significantly less defensive zone starts than others.. he's closer to 40% while everyone is over 50.. he's ranked almost in the bottom 2/3 on his own team. his entire team was so good defensively almost all their forwards are +20.. other players also seem to have a significantly higher takeaway numbers.. i dont have that big of an issue with him winning this year.. and if hischier won i wouldn't complain about it either.. but the voting should have been a lot closer than this lobsided win for bergeron.

You don't have to think Bergeron was miles ahead of others.  You don't have to think he was miles ahead of Hischier.  As long as you think he was even an inch ahead, you rank him first and everyone else behind him.  That's all there is to it.  https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=all&score=all&stdoi=oi&rate=y&team=ALL&pos=F&loc=B&toi=1000&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&lines=single&draftteam=ALL

[wai_lai416]

17 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

You don't have to think Bergeron was miles ahead of others.  You don't have to think he was miles ahead of Hischier.  As long as you think he was even an inch ahead, you rank him first and everyone else behind him.  That's all there is to it.  https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=all&score=all&stdoi=oi&rate=y&team=ALL&pos=F&loc=B&toi=1000&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&lines=single&draftteam=ALL

i didn't think he was miles ahead of others and personally i don't even think he was ahead of hischier. it should have been more of a toss up between the 2 with 1st place votes going both way unlike the actual voting result. Bergeron won by default due to his name prestige and how good boston was. this is one where if Hischier won no one would be screaming bergeron got robbed of a selke.. but the voting result was so lobsided in bergeron's favor. it's one where if it was 50/50 split they picked bergeron as the easy pick 

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

7 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i didn't think he was miles ahead of others and personally i don't even think he was ahead of hischier. it should have been more of a toss up between the 2 with 1st place votes going both way unlike the actual voting result. Bergeron won by default due to his name prestige and how good boston was. this is one where if Hischier won no one would be screaming bergeron got robbed of a selke.. but the voting result was so lobsided in bergeron's favor. it's one where if it was 50/50 split they picked bergeron as the easy pick 

How many times are you going to use this same line?  You don't think someone has to be miles ahead for him to be voted first.  If you score 99 on a test and I score 97 you aren't miles ahead, but you deserve to be first every time.

 

Show me the numbers that suggest Hischier was better than Bergeron.  Defensive zone start % is a good example, but show me some more.  Because all I see are better numbers from Bergeron.

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

How many times are you going to use this same line?  You don't think someone has to be miles ahead for him to be voted first.  If you score 99 on a test and I score 97 you aren't miles ahead, but you deserve to be first every time.

 

Show me the numbers that suggest Hischier was better than Bergeron.  Defensive zone start % is a good example, but show me some more.  Because all I see are better numbers from Bergeron.

Hischier have way more points on the ice despite having almost 8% more dzone less ozone starts.. points is not that big of a deal i guess since it's the best defensive forward not the best 2 way forward.. Hischier have more block shot.. and way more takeaway.. the only individual stat bergeron leads in is +/- hits and faceoff.. obviously advance stats is going to favor bergeron.. Hischier is and will have siginificantly higher CA and FA because he played 200+ more mins and starts in the D zone 10% of the time more than bergeron. 200+ mins more even strength less PP more SH time so no bergeon isn't 99 points while hishier is a 97 so bergeron deserves first every time.. it's they are probably both 99 depending on which stats u value more and the votes shouldn't have been 99% first place for bergeron

 

Hischier carried his linemate tatar who went from a -21 to a +41 and jesper bratt +0 to +14

 

and i'll keep using the miles ahead because you need to be miles ahead for you to have a lobsided win like this.. we ain't talking about 99 vs 97 or 98 points and even if we are.. certain questions on some test are up to the persons intrepretation.. it's not like it's a multiple choice where there's only 1 answer. i find it hard to believe everyone rated each player and their criteria exactly the same.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by wai_lai416

[Diamonds]

9 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Please do.  You'd really have to present a compelling argument to suggest Kopitar should've won the Selke this year.  This was an emphatic win for Bergeron.

Bergeron still had a good season, it it wasn't that Kopitar was miles ahead or anything I just think an argument can be made for him so here's some of it.

 

To start with, as @wai_lai416 pointed out, Bergeron's defensive zone start percentage was 43.5% as compared with Kopitar's 52.3% defensive zone starts. That's an almost 10% difference. Also despite the heavier offensive zone start bias for Bergeron, Kopitar scored 16 more points than Bergeron. 

 

In addition to the zone starts, Kopitar was relied on more heavily on the PK this year than Bergeron was. Bergeron averaged 1:46 SH/games vs Kopitar at 1:52 SH/game. That alone is not a huge difference, but Kopitar was also the primary PK center on the Kings and played 36% of short-handed time whereas Bergeron was the secondary PK center on the Bruins and played 30% of short-handed time (Coyle was the primary and played 44% of short-handed time). Kopitar also averaged 3 minutes more even-strength TOI/game than Bergeron and 3 more minutes total TOI/game.

 

Some other good defensive metrics to look at are takeaways and takeaways/60 and blocked shot and blocked shots/60. The takeaways were essentially a dead heat where Kopitar had 46 takeaways and a 1.65/60 compared to Bergeron with 38 takeaways and a 1.68/60. However, Kopitar was the much better shot blocker with 87 blocked shots and 3.13/60 as compared to Bergeron's 54 blocked shots and 2.38/60.

 

Lastly to talk about everyones favorite +/-. Yes, Bergeron had a very impressive looking +35. He also played on a team with a monster +128 goal differential. Yes, Bergeron helped contribute to that monster differential but was 4th on his team in +/-. Meanwhile Kopitar had a still impressive +20 but on a team that only had a +23 goal differential. Kopitar was also second in +/- on the Kings.

 

Yes, there are some categories where Bergeron still edges out Kopitar (his insane 61% faceoff rate compared to Kopitar's still quite good 56% for example) and its not a blowout either way. But I said that an argument could be made for Kopitar and I believe I have. Kopitar played a more defensive deployment, was relied on more heavily short-handed, was the better shot blocker, and yet still scored at a higher rate than Bergeron and was a bigger contributor to his team's overall goal differential.