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#421 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

Who said drinking and driving only affects the driver....? Neither Wet or myself ever mentioned drivers. Drunk or otherwise.

Of course the statement is predicated by their being other people around.... :blink:

Again, try not being so willfully obtuse and maybe it will come a little easier.

Correction, it's the discussion harming "not other persons around them", which was indeed said absolutist statement made by Wetcoaster and challenged by a poster.

And it isn't only the instance of drinking and driving, it's violence surrounding drinking too which certainly can and does harm others. Try not to be so defensive (oddly at that since no statement was made about what you "mentioned") and you'll better understand what's being iterated.

Edited by zaibatsu, 21 January 2013 - 05:17 PM.

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#422 J.R.

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:21 PM

Correction, it's the discussion harming "not other persons around them", which was indeed said absolutist statement made by Wetcoaster and challenged by a poster.

And it isn't only the instance of drinking and driving, it's violence surrounding drinking too which certainly can and does harm others. Try not to be so defensive (oddly at that since no statement was made about what you "mentioned") and you'll better understand what's being iterated.


Again, drinking and driving, alcohol related violence and anything else you can come up with are separate issues and not what We t stated or made his remark about. The actual act of taking a drink of beer is no more dangerous than the actual act of taking a sip of water. The same can not be said about cigarettes.
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#423 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

Again, drinking and driving, alcohol related violence and anything else you can come up with are separate issues and not what We t stated or made his remark about. The actual act of taking a drink of beer is no more dangerous than the actual act of taking a sip of water. The same can not be said about cigarettes.

Wrong.

http://progressrepor...1&coid=706&mid=

Drinking alcohol increases the risk of cancers of the mouth, esophagus, pharynx, larynx, and liver in men and women and of breast cancer in women.



.. and increases the odds with every drink, not to mention increases the risk of other cancers with every drink.

This is not the case with water, so equating water to alcohol is a terrible comparison.

We already established the effects it has upon others.

Edited by zaibatsu, 21 January 2013 - 05:27 PM.

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#424 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:27 PM

Again, drinking and driving, alcohol related violence and anything else you can come up with are separate issues and not what We t stated or made his remark about. The actual act of taking a drink of beer is no more dangerous than the actual act of taking a sip of water. The same can not be said about cigarettes.


When drinking a sip of water causes a traffic death you will have had a point there.
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#425 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

Oddest thing has happened. The more I toke regular reefer, the less I even want a drag on my E-Cig...is it possible, nay probable, that smoking cannabis has effectively curbed any desire I have for tobacco or nicotine? :o
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#426 Wetcoaster

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

Out of the 37 thousand posts you have written, I can assure you this is probably on the top of the list of the post you would like to have back.

You used to be an RCMP officer apparently ?

You are taking the comment out of context.

Drinking alcohol requires an intervening act - simply standing beside someone who is drinking alcohol does not have the harmful effects as second hand smoke.

I can say proudly I was never an RCMP officer.

As I noted when the same comment was raised earlier:

No idea and you are constructing strawman arguments.

If you stand next to me and smoke you have exposed me to a health risk by that simple act.

If I stand next to you and consume an alcoholic beverage it has done you zero harm.


Edited by Wetcoaster, 21 January 2013 - 05:35 PM.

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#427 taxi

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

When drinking a sip of water causes a traffic death you will have had a point there.


People cause accidents all the time by paying attention to their drink instead of the road:

Admittedly, that is a very troubling statistic. However, a 2009 study commissioned by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration showed that 80% of all traffic accidents are caused by drivers who are eating. Let me repeat that, in case you missed it: 80% of all traffic accidents are caused by drivers who are busy cramming food into their pie-hole instead of focusing on the road.
This same study determined coffee to be the #1 cause of food-related crashes, with soup, tacos, chili dogs, and hamburgers rounding out the top five. That means Starbucks, Burger King, and your grandma’s chicken noodle recipe are killing far more people on the road than cell phones. Yet, there is no public outrage over drive-through windows and no federal threat to take away your cappuccino. Cell phones have become the bogeyman du jour, and policymakers will certainly not let pesky facts stand in the way of a moral crusade.





http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/starbucks-causing-more-traffic-accidents-than-cell-phones/


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#428 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:34 PM

People cause accidents all the time by paying attention to their drink instead of the road:

[/background][/left][/color]

http://sayanythingbl...an-cell-phones/



See that flying by the side of your head there? That's the point that you missed. If you drink a sip of water in a car while driving, there is nothing in that water that would ever affect your judgment. The water:alcohol analogy is quite possibly the worst one I have ever seen.
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#429 Wetcoaster

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:35 PM

Yes, drunk driving kills tens of thousands of people each year, so it most definitely does not affect only the driver..

And as usual no understanding of context.

No idea and you are constructing strawman arguments.

If you stand next to me and smoke you have exposed me to a health risk by that simple act.

If I stand next to you and consume an alcoholic beverage it has done you zero harm.


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#430 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

And as usual no understanding of context.

Hey you made the post and an open-ended absolutist statement, don't try and hide behind "context" and your own made-up scenario now, of which someone standing next to another with a cigarette doesn't inherently mean person has breathed in the smoke or carcinogens. In order to be correct about the dangers of smoking and drinking, you must have one little scenario employed at your behest . This is indeed a fallacious argument you are putting forth and highly biased -- one can only question your motivations for such.

Edited by zaibatsu, 21 January 2013 - 05:43 PM.

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#431 J.R.

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

See that flying by the side of your head there? That's the point that you missed. If you drink a sip of water in a car while driving, there is nothing in that water that would ever affect your judgment. The water:alcohol analogy is quite possibly the worst one I have ever seen.


You and Zai are the last people in this thread who should be commenting about people missing points.
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#432 J.R.

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:45 PM

Wrong.

http://progressrepor...1&coid=706&mid=
[/font][/color]

.. and increases the odds with every drink, not to mention increases the risk of other cancers with every drink.

This is not the case with water, so equating water to alcohol is a terrible comparison.

We already established the effects it has upon others.


Does the person standing beside me drinking water while I'm sipping said beer have a higher risk of cancer of the mouth from MY act of drinking said beer?

Exactly ;) Maybe someone can draw you a picture if the point is still escaping you... :rolleyes:
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#433 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:46 PM

You and Zai are the last people in this thread who should be commenting about people missing points.


Ok...let's see...what did you say again? The actual act of taking a drink of beer is no different than the act of drinking a sip of water? You have a point when it comes to the action itself...but the analogy falls apart when you consider the ramifications and consequences side by side...with water there are virtually zero...with alcohol, it's a different story.

Edit: I have quit drinking alcohol and likewise have quit smoking cigarettes, so my position is now one of objectivity when it comes to either topic of conversation. If I misconstrued your statement in any way, please tell me so I can understand what you are trying to convey.

Edited by Scott Hartnell's Mane, 21 January 2013 - 05:49 PM.

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#434 Wetcoaster

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:46 PM

The act of smoking doesn't inherently harm anyone else, much like drinking and driving, anoter person has to be around for it to be dangerous to others. The negligence of smokers smoking around other people is no different than the negligence of people who drink and get behind the wheel. Dangerous is dangerous.. so that was a dumb absolutist statement he made saying it only affects the driver.

It is quite different. Smoking is the harm and it requires no intervening act as second hand smoke is incredibly toxic and there is not safe level of exposure for third parties.

Per the The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General dated
June 27, 2006:

Secondhand Smoke Is Toxic and Poisonous

Secondhand smoke is composed of sidestream smoke (the smoke released from the burning end of a cigarette) and exhaled mainstream smoke (the smoke exhaled by the smoker). Because sidestream smoke is generated at lower temperatures and under different conditions than mainstream smoke, it contains higher concentrations of many of the toxins found in inhaled cigarette smoke.


There is No Risk-Free Level of Exposure to Secondhand Smoke

Scientific evidence indicates that there is no risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke. Breathing even a little secondhand smoke can be harmful to your health.


Breathing secondhand smoke for even a short time can have immediate adverse effects on the cardiovascular system, interfering with the normal functioning of the heart, blood, and vascular systems in ways that increase the risk of heart attack.

http://www.surgeonge...moke/index.html

Drinking alcohol and driving drunk requires an intervening act - getting in a car and driving. The act of drinking alcohol has no immediate health effect on third parties unlike secondhand smoke.

That seems obvious unless one is being wilfully obtuse as another poster has noted.
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#435 J.R.

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

Ok...let's see...what did you say again? The actual act of taking a drink of beer is no different than the act of drinking a sip of water? You have a point when it comes to the action itself...but the analogy falls apart when you consider the ramifications and consequences side by side...with water there are virtually zero...with alcohol, it's a different story.


The discussion is the effects of smoking vs drinking a beverage (of any type...doesn't really matter) on people in your proximity. The most risk someone faces by me raising a glass to my mouth is possibly glancing my elbow. There is no such thing as "second hand thirst quenching". Get it?

Edited by J.R., 21 January 2013 - 05:51 PM.

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#436 Wetcoaster

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:53 PM

Hey you made the post and an open-ended absolutist statement, don't try and hide behind "context" and your own made-up scenario now, of which someone standing next to another with a cigarette doesn't inherently mean person has breathed in the smoke or carcinogens. In order to be correct about the dangers of smoking and drinking, you must have one little scenario employed at your behest . This is indeed a fallacious argument you are putting forth and highly biased -- one can only question your motivations for such.

No I did not make "an open-ended absolutist statement,". It is all about context and you need to actually follow the thread rather than taking something completely out of context.

And you are being as another poster noted wilfully obtuse.
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#437 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:53 PM

The discussion is the effects of smoking vs drinking a beverage (of any type...doesn't really matter) on people in your proximity. The most risk someone faces by me raising a glass to my mouth is possibly glancing my elbow. There is no such thing as "second hand thirst quenching". Get it?


Got it. Thanks. :) Wait...wouldn't sharing a soda with someone be "second hand thirst quenching"? ;)
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#438 taxi

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:21 PM

See that flying by the side of your head there? That's the point that you missed. If you drink a sip of water in a car while driving, there is nothing in that water that would ever affect your judgment. The water:alcohol analogy is quite possibly the worst one I have ever seen.


I disagree again. Water can most certainly distract you or affect your judgement. You could be driving and really thirsty. Then you take a sip of water and it feels so satiating that you forget to look at the road...boom your dead Mofo!

Or the water just tastes bad. You think to yourself: OMG this water is gross. You take your eyes off the road....BOOM! dead again.

Or you drink so much water you have to urinate. All you can think about is getting to a washroom. You hastily make a left turn in front of a semi-truck....BOOM! your dead.

Or you can't get to that washroom in time. You pee your pants. You are so embarrassed you can't make proper judgements. You inadvertendly drive into oncomming traffic. BOOM! your dead.
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#439 Dral

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:53 PM

Wow - this thread is still going? Let it go already. Until smokes are illegal you're going to have to deal with CERTAIN smokers (not even close to ALL smokers, or even a majority of smokers) who are rude and inconsiderate.

Likewise, until being a whiny biznick becomes illegal, those of us who smoke and don't deliberately blow it people's face's are going to have to put up with the likes of you people.
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#440 J.R.

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

Got it. Thanks. :) Wait...wouldn't sharing a soda with someone be "second hand thirst quenching"? ;)


Nope. Just like taking a drag off someone else's cig would no longer be considered "second hand smoke" as you are then first hand, actively smoking yourself.

Willfully participating vs innocent bystander/third party.
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#441 Aladeen

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:17 PM

Oddest thing has happened. The more I toke regular reefer, the less I even want a drag on my E-Cig...is it possible, nay probable, that smoking cannabis has effectively curbed any desire I have for tobacco or nicotine? :o

It is because smoking cigarettes is really two things combined into one:

1. the Nicotine Addiction and 2. The habit of smoking.

The longer you go without cigarettes the closer you are to breaking the addiction to nicotine, however the habit of taking smoke into your lungs still exists. As for the habit probably most types of smoke or vapour as in your e-cig will effectively curb that (substituting one habit for another.)

I don't believe that it has anything to do with a substance within marijuana that eliminates the addiction to nicotine.
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#442 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

Nope. Just like taking a drag off someone else's cig would no longer be considered "second hand smoke" as you are then first hand, actively smoking yourself.

Willfully participating vs innocent bystander/third party.


I cannot even remember what the debate was about now.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#443 Tearloch7

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

I cannot even remember what the debate was about now.


I believe it involved smoking versus drinking versus breathing versus farting .. in other words .. reality as we know it .. B)
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#444 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:33 PM

It is because smoking cigarettes is really two things combined into one:

1. the Nicotine Addiction and 2. The habit of smoking.

The longer you go without cigarettes the closer you are to breaking the addiction to nicotine, however the habit of taking smoke into your lungs still exists. As for the habit probably most types of smoke or vapour as in your e-cig will effectively curb that (substituting one habit for another.)

I don't believe that it has anything to do with a substance within marijuana that eliminates the addiction to nicotine.


I doubt seriously that it "eliminates" it completely...but as I have observed in my own self-study, cannabis also distorts your sense of time. THC affects your brain's dopamine system, creating a stimulant effect. People who are stoned often report feeling excited, anxious, or energetic as a result. Like other stimulants, this affects people's sense of time. Things seem to pass quickly because the brain's clock is sped up. At the same time, the drug slows down your ability to remember things. That's because it interferes with the brain's acetylcholine system, which is part of what helps you store those memories in your hippocampus.

As my day goes by much faster than it used to...seemingly..and as I used to have a rigid cigarette snoking schedule...1 nearly every hour sometimes less than an hour, I have noticed that I don't have the craving for nicotine as much anymore. I can state verily that although I have short-term memory issues using cannabis, I have no similar effect on my long-term memory. THC is also neuroprotective, which means essentially that it prevents brain damage.

So, I feel that because I am in a sense "forgetting" that I need a cigarette or need a nicotine fix, I'm in some odd way curbing my dependence on nicotine. This made sense when I first thought of it, but looking at it now I'm not sure. Either way it's taken place, I find myself taking less and less drags off of my E-Cig and hopefully am very close to kicking nicotine for good.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#445 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:36 PM

I believe it involved smoking versus drinking versus breathing versus farting .. in other words .. reality as we know it .. B)


I cannot help but remember Ben Franklin's maxim "Fart proudly" when reading this post, Charlie :P
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#446 c00kies

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

I get a warm feeling every time I see the woman on my street smoke outside in -40 weather to protect her kids from the second hand smoke :)

I'm very sensitive to second hand smoke, as it causes me to have a weird feeling in my throat (hard to explain), red eyes, dry nose, and of course a dry cough. My best friend's mom is a really heavy smoker and the house reeks of cigarette smoke.
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#447 J.R.

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:05 PM

I cannot even remember what the debate was about now.


Herb?
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#448 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

Herb?


Are you asking me if herb is the reason? If so yes. :P
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#449 Wetcoaster

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:30 PM

Herb?

Ah the memories of my misspent youth whiling away the hours, lost in a dream world caused by...



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Or Herb Tarlek who dispensed pearls of wisdom on WKRP in Cincinnati such as - "It's bad luck to take advice from a crazy person."

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#450 pibroch

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

Wait, are there actually people in this thread trying to argue that cigarettes and/or second hand smoke aren't bad for people?
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