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Multiple Warning Signs Surrounding Zack Kassian


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#1 King of the ES

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:10 PM

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Now that Kassian's essentially played the same amount of games in the AHL this season as he did last, I thought I'd have a look at the numbers to see how exactly he's "developing" (generous term).

WARNING: this ain't pretty

2011-12: 30 GP, 15 G, 26 P, +4, 94 SOG, 31 PIM

2012-13: 28 GP, 6 G, 18 P, -1, 72 SOG, 59 PIM

By my calculations, this amounts to the following data comparatives:
  • 60% year-over-year reduction in goals
  • 31% year-over-year reduction in points
  • 18% year-over-year reduction in SOG/game
  • 90% year-over-year increase in PIMs.
And, to be honest, the two things that are of the most concern to me are the decline in SOG and the increase in PIM. There's really no explanation for getting less SOG as a 22 year-old AHL sophomore than as a 21 year-old AHL rookie. And this SOG figure is even inflated, as Kass did have 7 SOG last game, bringing up his average significantly.

And while it's nice that he does seem willing to throw the body, at times, and drop the gloves, at times, I really hope that we didn't trade Cody Hodgson for a bottom-six goon that will be lucky to get 5 - 10 goals per year in limited minutes. I'm beginning to wonder if Kassian has a bit of "Kyle Beach" in him; capable of so much, too stupid to realize it and in the penalty box way, way too much.

Let's not forget that Kassian was hand held by the Sedin's in the off-season to try and get his training habits in shape (not a good sign), and even went on to be a healthy scratch in 1 (or more, I'm not sure) game, also (clearly) not a good sign.

Who else is concerned?
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#2 sedated

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

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It's hard to judge our prospects when our developmental process sucks. And currently our AHL team sucks and the coach is more questionable than AV with some of the decisions he makes.
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#3 Jägermeister

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

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You know there is more to a players game than stats right?
Have you even watched Kassian play a game this year?

And by the by, he is tied for the team lead in scoring, it's not entirely his fault the Wolves aren't generating offence (Looking at you Arniel).

And to use the fact that he looked to the Sedins for training advice as a bad thing is laughable.
"Oh no, he wanted advice from two fitness nuts to help him in his training, what a bust :frantic: "

Edited by Jägermeister, 31 December 2012 - 02:19 PM.

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#4 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

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stop posting with your negative threads............please burn your canucks jersery and go join the flames fan club
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One day some of us will look back on the year and look at the chicago, and most of us will realize that it was a small bump in the road to the cup


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#5 CanucksFanMike

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

Who else is concerned?


Not me...

Kassian's real test will be early next season (whenever it is) when he gets a crack in our top 6 for a bit.
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#6 G-52

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:19 PM

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ES your stupidity is boundless.
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#7 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:20 PM

ES is not a canuck fan.......his hate on KAssasin is getting annoying
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One day some of us will look back on the year and look at the chicago, and most of us will realize that it was a small bump in the road to the cup


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#8 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:22 PM

This means absolutely nothing quite frankly.
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#9 CanucksFanMike

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:23 PM

stop posting with your negative threads............please burn your canucks jersery and go join the flames fan club


If you want him to stop posting negative threads then joining the Flames fan club will only make it worse :P
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#10 Jägermeister

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:24 PM

Also:
Cody Hodgsons 08/09 season and his 09/10 season with Brampton in the OHL.
1.74 P/G --> 1.54 P/G
.81 G/G --> .62 G/G
.622PIM/G --> .692 PIM/G
So by your logic having a decline in that year would have automatically meant that Hodgson was going to be a bust too. Good on MG trading him away for anything at all!
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#11 King of the ES

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:24 PM

You know there is more to a players game than stats right?
Have you even watched Kassian play a game this year?

And by the by, he is tied for the team lead in scoring, it's not entirely his fault the Wolves aren't generating offence (Looking at you Arniel).


"Watch him play" - fine, but the numbers don't lie. The numbers are what's honest, free of the confirmation bias that so many Canuck fans suffer from - seeing only what you want to see, rather than reality. The guy's numbers are down, pretty substantially, and it's worth discussing. One of the reasons why Gillis went on to explain why he loved him so much was his AHL production, to which I agreed. 15 goals and 26 points in 30 games is impressive - the AHL is no joke. But he has regressed this year, thus far, and, to me, that's a red flag.

And let's cut the bashing on Arneil. Nobody questioned his ability to coach when he was developing Schneider, Edler, Raymond, Grabner, Rypien, Bourdon, Hodgson, etc., etc.
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#12 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:25 PM

While it's funny that this comes right after his 7sog game, couldn't this stupid crap be shoved in the Kassian thread?
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#13 Jägermeister

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:25 PM

Not going to lie, you make some good realistic points sometimes, but you go soooo overboard on trying to justify them, and never give any sort of credit where credit is due.
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#14 King of the ES

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

Also:
Cody Hodgsons 08/09 season and his 09/10 season with Brampton in the OHL.
1.74 P/G --> 1.54 P/G
.81 G/G --> .62 G/G
.622PIM/G --> .692 PIM/G
So by your logic having a decline in that year would have automatically meant that Hodgson was going to be a bust too. Good on MG trading him away for anything at all!


Nice try. Cody played 13 games in 2009-10. Not exactly a reliable sample size, let alone considering the fact that he was playing with a busted-up back that was misdiagnosed by your Vancouver Canucks.

Cody's AHL production this year, thus far, by the way, is far higher than what it was in 2010-11.
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#15 Jägermeister

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

Nice try. Cody played 13 games in 2009-10. Not exactly a reliable sample size, let alone considering the fact that he was playing with a busted-up back that was misdiagnosed by your Vancouver Canucks.

Cody's AHL production this year, thus far, by the way, is far higher than what it was in 2010-11.


But he's only played 16 games games this year, not exactly a reliable sample size.
And after 2 seasons, I should hope that he does better in the AHL.

Edited by Jägermeister, 31 December 2012 - 02:33 PM.

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#16 Rey

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:30 PM

I don't like how Schroeder is getting all the heat, when Kassian isn't playing much better, so i agree that Kassian does deserve the heat. Especially when Archibald is almost has the same amount of goal totals in half the games now. Kassian has shown glimpse of brilliance but continuously need to work on consistency. Obviously you become worried when Buffalo's stars are putting top notch numbers in the AHL but it's not Hodgson that you look at but Foligno, who has progressed rapidly that allowed Buffalo to trade Kassian to begin with. Anyways.....

Discipline isn't a concern with Kassian, so i don't see why you point that out but I'm worried that perhaps you want him to be less disciplined for him to turn into the monster he needs to be. He was a complete goon in the junior, and that's the way ....admitted not a fan of saying this, but that's the way you kind of want him to play. Ever since the incident in junior, he hasn't been the same physical monster.

Regardless, with the potential of the Canucks losing Edler next season and the lack of anything physical on the current team. I've accepted that we need Kassian over Hodgson.


BTW - Face the facts that this Canuck team isn't willing to play smart hockey and stay away from scrums. Like, literally skate away. Gilliis noticed this, and has started to try to fill the cupboard with more physical players. It was what had to be done.

Edited by Rey, 31 December 2012 - 02:35 PM.

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#17 King of the ES

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:33 PM

But he's only played 16 games games this year, not exactly a reliable sample size.


Right, that's why I prefaced it with "thus far".

And BTW, meant to talk about your Sedin/workout point. It's a warning sign because it was the Sedin's who went to management and said that they wanted to work with Kassian directly. One might hope/want to see a guy like Kassian being more proactive in doing something like that, rather than have the most established guys on the team, who are in their 30s, have families, etc., put forth the effort to try and work with him.
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#18 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

Quite hard to argue with the numbers, King. I mean, there is no room for assumptions that kassian's number declined. I have the exact concerns as you do.

But since I'm trying to be positive this new year, I''ll hang this on the coach.........for now.

Edited by Mr. Reputable, 31 December 2012 - 02:35 PM.

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#19 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

This thread is really about Cody. And Cody's skill level wouldn't be my concern as much as his injuries are. If he continues getting hurt all the time, does it really matter how good he is?

Kassian is probably the guy on the Wolves i am least concerned with.
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#20 Jägermeister

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

And BTW, meant to talk about your Sedin/workout point. It's a warning sign because it was the Sedin's who went to management and said that they wanted to work with Kassian directly. One might hope/want to see a guy like Kassian being more proactive in doing something like that, rather than have the most established guys on the team, who are in their 30s, have families, etc., put forth the effort to try and work with him.


From this summer:

Kassian has put in serious work this summer to get in terrific shape. He put in work with top trainers at the Nike Headquarters in Oregon back in July along with a few other prospects, including Kevin Connauton and Jordan Schroeder. Kassian trained and spent some time with the Sedin twins and Manny Malhotra in April and May of 2012, as well.
Kassian has trimmed about 15 pounds off of his frame this summer. Fear not, though, as he still tips the scales at close to 215 pounds (regardless of what he is listed at on various sites, Kassian played at close to 230 pounds last year).


I'm in no way concerned about the fitness efforts of a guy who can put in enough work to trim off 15 pounds in one summer.

Edited by Jägermeister, 31 December 2012 - 02:37 PM.

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#21 Rey

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:38 PM

This thread is not about Cody Hodgson. I think most people are over that. Schroeder's been blasted for putting up the same amount of points as Kassian. There's a whole thread about how Schroeder is never going to make the NHL because of it.

Edited by Rey, 31 December 2012 - 02:39 PM.

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#22 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:39 PM

There is no doubt he needs to do better. I'm not overly concerned. Optimistic still, but not impressed. Time to step up.

Edited by CanucksSayEh, 31 December 2012 - 02:40 PM.

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#23 King of the ES

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:39 PM

I've accepted that we need Kassian over Hodgson.


That's fine, and I'm even fine with the swap. Schroeder fell into the Canucks' lap in 2009 and I think he's got the potential to be a pretty good NHL player. Hodgson for Kassian is a reasonable gamble, with Kassian turning into a Lucic-type as the desired end. The timing didn't make much sense, but there was logic in the move.

I'm just upset that he doesn't seem to be getting better. Stats matter.
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#24 Bork Laser

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:40 PM

Oh how I love your BS posts :)
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#25 Rey

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:42 PM

That's fine, and I'm even fine with the swap. Schroeder fell into the Canucks' lap in 2009 and I think he's got the potential to be a pretty good NHL player. Hodgson for Kassian is a reasonable gamble, with Kassian turning into a Lucic-type as the desired end. The timing didn't make much sense, but there was logic in the move.

I'm just upset that he doesn't seem to be getting better. Stats matter.


Agreed. Also people need to consider that Kassian was putting up better AHL numbers with Rochester a year ago. Bout a goal every 2 games. Add the fact that he wasn't consistent there either. Kassian looked real good at the start of the season, this year. At least that's a positive...

Edited by Rey, 31 December 2012 - 02:44 PM.

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#26 Jägermeister

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:43 PM

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"Watch him play" - fine, but the numbers don't lie. The numbers are what's honest, free of the confirmation bias that so many Canuck fans suffer from - seeing only what you want to see, rather than reality.


Thanks for affirming my belief that you haven't seen him play.
And no, the numbers don't mean anywhere near as much as you seem to think they do...

I scored 2 goals in my game the other week, one was an empty netter and the other was a snapshot from the point that bounced off my arm into the net. I was sat for almost an entire period at one point for making two terrible giveaways in our own zone, and I had also missed a wide open net earlier. You would look and say "wow he got 2 goals, he must have played great", but anyone who actually watched the game would realized that I hadn't.
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#27 TheEhrhoffEffect

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

I think the only warning sign with Zack Kassian is his consistency. He can dominate one game, and then be invisible in the next. That may ultimately hurt him in the long run. At the worst, Kassian will be a decent bottom six forward. At his best, he could be a 60 pt per season power forward

Edited by TheEhrhoffEffect, 31 December 2012 - 02:46 PM.

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#28 debluvscanucks

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

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You've made several statements in this thread that demonstrate trolling.

It needs to stop.
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#29 literaphile

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

I'm not sure how anyone can call this thread "BS", since it's just a report of the numbers. The numbers don't lie - they're an objective assessment of a player's progress. Nothing more.

That said, I don't think three-year windows are far-more valuable than two-year windows, so I wouldn't cry panic just yet.
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#30 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 02:46 PM

His stats matter much more to me in the AHL than NHL. If he came into the Canucks and made lots of smart plays, wasn't a liability and layed big hits then I would be happy, even if he rarely hit the scoresheet. However, on the Wolves, he should be doing all that aswell as scoring, often.

Edited by CanucksSayEh, 31 December 2012 - 02:47 PM.

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