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Pope Benedict XVI to resign at the end of the month.


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#61 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:49 PM

'making rational inferences' can be deeply flawed for a number of reasons. People are not robotically making unbiased, 100% rational inferences. Do you actually think that?

Better than blind faith.
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#62 Heretic

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:50 PM

I do not see the flaw in the first approach as it is based upon facts and rational decision making while the second approach is not.


Because, if you base (another word for bias) a decision upon past history it means you're limiting your outcome.

Just because 5 dogs in a row jumped the the fence and chased a car doesn't mean that dog number 6 is going to.

Probability is different from rationality.

There are no facts that dog number 6 likes to chase cars.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#63 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:54 PM

Because, if you base (another word for bias) a decision upon past history it means you're limiting your outcome.

Just because 5 dogs in a row jumped the the fence and chased a car doesn't mean that dog number 6 is going to.

Probability is different from rationality.

There are no facts that dog number 6 likes to chase cars.

I never limited it to only past history.
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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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#64 Heretic

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:55 PM

I never limited it to only past history.


So...you included future history? :)
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#65 inane

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:56 PM

Better than blind faith.


I agree, but certainly not bias free as you suggest.
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#66 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:00 PM

I agree, but certainly not bias free as you suggest.

I never said it was bias free nor suggested it. Just a better mode of assessment.

In the case of the Catholic Church past history seems to be repeated constantly as we have seem with the pedophile priest situations around the world. The latest forced court disclosure of documents from the LA diocese bears that out.
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#67 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:00 PM

So...you included future history? :)

Current events.
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#68 J.R.

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:06 PM

Perhaps not.

Cardinal Peter Turkson is considered a front runner in the running of the 2013 Popery Sweepstakes.
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Also Cardinal Francis Arinze
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http://www.policymic...i-s-replacement


First Obama, now this. Soon all corrupt organizations will be lead by black men! :P
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#69 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:10 PM

First Obama, now this. Soon all corrupt organizations will be lead by black men! :P

To be accurate Obama is only half black as his mother was Caucasian.
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#70 Heretic

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:21 PM

I never said it was bias free nor suggested it. Just a better mode of assessment.

In the case of the Catholic Church past history seems to be repeated constantly as we have seem with the pedophile priest situations around the world. The latest forced court disclosure of documents from the LA diocese bears that out.


Again...just because 5 did it doesn't mean number 6 will.

That's not rational thinking at all.
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#71 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:24 PM

Again...just because 5 did it doesn't mean number 6 will.

That's not rational thinking at all.

You are trying to shift to something that I have never claimed.
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#72 Heretic

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:34 PM

You are trying to shift to something that I have never claimed.


That you're a rational thinker?


Given the history of the Catholic Church (and the recent disclosure of documents showing protection of pedophile priests that reached the Shoes of the German Fisherman), it is a fair inference to make.



Realists take a realistic view based on past history and make rational inferences.

Those operating on blind faith are ruled by bias.


I never said it was bias free nor suggested it. Just a better mode of assessment.

In the case of the Catholic Church past history seems to be repeated constantly as we have seem with the pedophile priest situations around the world. The latest forced court disclosure of documents from the LA diocese bears that out.


Sure seems a lot of references in this thread alone that you're basing your viewpoint on the past.

Actually, your viewpoint seems to be based on only the negative events of the past.

BTW, I'm not defending the Catholic church nor anyone who has done something bad - I'm merely pointing out that your viewpoint is closer to blind faith as you define it than a rational one.
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#73 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:36 PM

I never said it was bias free nor suggested it. Just a better mode of assessment.

In the case of the Catholic Church past history seems to be repeated constantly as we have seem with the pedophile priest situations around the world. The latest forced court disclosure of documents from the LA diocese bears that out.


Most human being's do not seem able to learn from previous generations mistakes.

This is not unique to the catholic church.


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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#74 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:40 PM

That you're a rational thinker?

Sure seems a lot of references in this thread alone that you're basing your viewpoint on the past.

Actually, your viewpoint seems to be based on only the negative events of the past.

BTW, I'm not defending the Catholic church nor anyone who has done something bad - I'm merely pointing out that your viewpoint is closer to blind faith as you define it than a rational one.

Not so.

The Catholic Church has proved itself incapable of dealing with pedophile priests and nothing has changed as more and more information comes to light about the manner in which the Church hierarchy has obstructed justice and failed to comply with its own policies on these matters.
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#75 Heretic

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:43 PM

Not so.

The Catholic Church has proved itself incapable of dealing with pedophile priests and nothing has changed as more and more information comes to light about the manner in which the Church hierarchy has obstructed justice and failed to comply with its own policies on these matters.


After all this time, do we (humans) still have pedophiles?

Why is that?

I guess the human race has failed overall all hasn't it.
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#76 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:44 PM

What happened to innocent until proven guilty?


I think in lawyer's parlance, it's "innocent until proven broke", isn't it Wet? ;)
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#77 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:51 PM

I think in lawyer's parlance, it's "innocent until proven broke", isn't it Wet? ;)


Right on Rupert :lol:
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#78 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:53 PM

After all this time, do we (humans) still have pedophiles?

Why is that?

I guess the human race has failed overall all hasn't it.

Sure there are pedophiles in society.

But the problem is we have an organization in the Catholic Church that shields and protects pedophile priests while putting up barriers to investigation and prosecution by civil authorities. Prosecutors in various jurisdictions say the Catholic Church has done little and in fact has actively blocked investigations and moved pedophile priests from parish to parish and even from country to country in an attempt to frustrate investigation and prosecution.

This has been determined to be so in numerous countries around the world.
http://forum.canucks...st__p__10980403
http://forum.canucks...ost__p__9718697

And there have been a number of scandals involving the Vatican Bank over the years and they continue.
http://www.spiegel.d...e-a-842140.html
http://www.spiegel.d...a-842140-2.html

Edited by Wetcoaster, 12 February 2013 - 02:54 PM.

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#79 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:54 PM

I think in lawyer's parlance, it's "innocent until proven broke", isn't it Wet? ;)

Nope.
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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#80 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:00 PM

I think in lawyer's parlance, it's "innocent until proven broke", isn't it Wet? ;)

I'd ask a lawyer.
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#81 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:01 PM

Nope.


University of Texas finance professor StephenMagee has calculated that each U.S. lawyer drains the economyof an average of $1 million a year in productivity.If Magee is right, those leeches now suck some three-quarters of a trillion dollars out of the US economy annually.

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 12 February 2013 - 03:02 PM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#82 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

University of Texas finance professor StephenMagee has calculated that each U.S. lawyer drains the economyof an average of $1 million a year in productivity.If Magee is right, those leeches now suck some three-quarters of a trillion dollars out of the US economy annually.

Somewhat misleading in respect of the opinion and research on the issue by Dr. Stephen Magee. Actually he found lawyers on balance to be a positive force despite the oversupply in the US. In Canada there is no such over supply.

The truth is that the US does have too many lawyers: out of 50 countries only Uruguay has more lawyers per capita than the US. Why so many? Lawyers have always lobbied Congress and state legislatures to artificially increase the demand for lawyers and to permit frivolous lawsuits. We know that lawyers have excessive political influence: 41% of the US Congress are lawyers, the 2nd highest percentage in the world, which is eight times greater than the lawyer percentage of the US professional labor force.

Unfortunately, there are negative economic consequences of having too many lawyers. My research shows that there is an economic optimum ratio of lawyers to population. That research across 27 countries and over a 40 year time period shows that the US has 1/3 too many lawyers. As a result, spurious lawsuits and excessive litigation, subtracts 7 percent a year from US national income, which is $1 trillion a year from our $15 trillion economy.

In contrast, 2/3 of US lawyers add positively to our economy by protecting property, facilitating transactions and reducing crime. This 2/3 of American lawyers adds 36% a year to our economy, Which is $5 trillion a year in a $15 trillion economy.

W.C. Fields once joked that some lawyers are good and some lawyers are bad but we don't need any of them. Well, he was wrong: two-thirds of American lawyers are a positive force in the US economy.

http://wamc.org/post...oo-many-lawyers


Edited by Wetcoaster, 12 February 2013 - 03:12 PM.

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#83 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:42 PM

Somewhat misleading in respect of the opinion and research on the issue by Dr. Stephen Magee. Actually he found lawyers on balance to be a positive force despite the oversupply in the US. In Canada there is no such over supply.


The truth is that the US does have too many lawyers: out of 50 countries only Uruguay has more lawyers per capita than the US. Why so many? Lawyers have always lobbied Congress and state legislatures to artificially increase the demand for lawyers and to permit frivolous lawsuits. We know that lawyers have excessive political influence: 41% of the US Congress are lawyers, the 2nd highest percentage in the world, which is eight times greater than the lawyer percentage of the US professional labor force.

Unfortunately, there are negative economic consequences of having too many lawyers. My research shows that there is an economic optimum ratio of lawyers to population. That research across 27 countries and over a 40 year time period shows that the US has 1/3 too many lawyers. As a result, spurious lawsuits and excessive litigation, subtracts 7 percent a year from US national income, which is $1 trillion a year from our $15 trillion economy.

In contrast, 2/3 of US lawyers add positively to our economy by protecting property, facilitating transactions and reducing crime. This 2/3 of American lawyers adds 36% a year to our economy, Which is $5 trillion a year in a $15 trillion economy.

W.C. Fields once joked that some lawyers are good and some lawyers are bad but we don't need any of them. Well, he was wrong: two-thirds of American lawyers are a positive force in the US economy.

http://wamc.org/post...oo-many-lawyers


Thanks for pointing out i was behaving like a lawyer , i will try not to make the same mistake again :lol:
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#84 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:45 PM

Thanks for pointing out i was behaving like a lawyer , i will try not to make the same mistake again :lol:

Again your are under a fundamental misapprehension about lawyers.

If you tried to mislead like that a judge would slap you down and you could face sanctions by the Law Society.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#85 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:57 PM

In any event, my comment was made with tongue firmly in cheek....
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#86 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:03 PM

Again your are under a fundamental misapprehension about lawyers.

If you tried to mislead like that a judge would slap you down and you could face sanctions by the Law Society.


So a judge would slap me down for presenting evidence that supports my case , and not presenting evidence that would be detrimental to my case ?

But lets get back on topic

Oullet seems to be another hardliner here are some comments he made that were reported in the national post august 19th 2009

Ouellet believes that many Catholics interpreted the teachings of the Second Vatican Council in far too liberal a way and by doing so disconnected from the core of their faith. Relativism led to priests abandoning celibacy, a drop in proper religious education, and a general infusion of leftist politics — all of which was not the intention of the council. Ouellet stated: “After the council, the sense of mission was replaced by the idea of dialogue. That we should dialogue with other faiths and not attempt to bring them the Gospels, to convert. Since then, relativism has been developing more broadly.”

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 12 February 2013 - 04:04 PM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#87 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:06 PM

In any event, my comment was made with tongue firmly in cheek....


A lot of truth is said in jest.
Eminem
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#88 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:12 PM

A lot of truth is said in jest.
Eminem


Sorry. I can't put any stock in a quote from a rapper...;)

Truth is, 'Coaster and I generally see eye to eye on most things, but it doesn't mean that I won't occasionally throw in a little good-natured dig about lawyers.

It also doesn't mean that I buy into the stereotype of all lawyers being heartless, opportunists out to take advantage of other's misfortune. I have several friends in the legal field and they are all good people.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#89 Wetcoaster

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:13 PM

So a judge would slap me down for presenting evidence that supports my case , and not presenting evidence that would be detrimental to my case ?

But lets get back on topic

Oullet seems to be another hardliner here are some comments he made that were reported in the national post august 19th 2009

Ouellet believes that many Catholics interpreted the teachings of the Second Vatican Council in far too liberal a way and by doing so disconnected from the core of their faith. Relativism led to priests abandoning celibacy, a drop in proper religious education, and a general infusion of leftist politics — all of which was not the intention of the council. Ouellet stated: “After the council, the sense of mission was replaced by the idea of dialogue. That we should dialogue with other faiths and not attempt to bring them the Gospels, to convert. Since then, relativism has been developing more broadly.”

A judge would slap you down for misrepresenting the evidence. It would also be a serious offence under Law Society rules to mislead or attempt to mislead a judge in court.

A lawyer should not attempt to deceive a court or tribunal by offering false evidence or by misstating facts or law and should not, either in argument to the judge or in address to the jury, assert a personal belief in an accused's guilt or innocence, in the justice or merits of the client's cause or in the evidence tendered before the court.


I have no idea what Ouellet stands for but if your characterization is accurate it sounds as if he is unlikely to be a force for change or serious reform.
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To err is human - but to really screw up you need a computer.

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#90 Buddhas Hand

Buddhas Hand

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:23 PM

A judge would slap you down for misrepresenting the evidence. It would also be a serious offence under Law Society rules to mislead or attempt to mislead a judge in court.


A lawyer should not attempt to deceive a court or tribunal by offering false evidence or by misstating facts or law and should not, either in argument to the judge or in address to the jury, assert a personal belief in an accused's guilt or innocence, in the justice or merits of the client's cause or in the evidence tendered before the court.


I have no idea what Ouellet stands for but if your characterization is accurate it sounds as if he is unlikely to be a force for change or serious reform.


I did not provide false evidence , i presented the facts that i was aware of .
Are you saying that the information i provided was erroneous ?

It is relatively easy to find out what Oullets views are .
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