KristoffWixenschon

That's so good to hear! Thanks for sharing. Its inspiring to hear about people investing in themselves

Good work! That's incredible. I bet you feel great

I know a couple of people who have used this pandemic as a motivation to quit smoking and lose weight. We should be taking extra good care of ourselves right now.

It's funny. If we were all sitting around the table having a beer in person, I bet most of us would all come to a respectful consensus pretty quickly. We are so limited by text. It really highlights and agitates the areas we disagree and not the numerous areas where most of us seem to agree.

That wasnt the CDCs position that you posted. That was an article from a contributor. Anyway, glad you agree that cloth masks reduce droplet and aerosol spread. I agree medical masks are better. What kind of mask do you use?

1. One opinion piece from April... not very solid data 2. That's when medical staff were wearing cloth masks, not when the sick patients were wearing them. Masks protect other people, not you. Thats important when we have several days of asymptomatic transmission with this virus. Come on man, help others. It feels really good! You'll like it! I swear! If all along, your point has been "your mask wont protect you", then I agree with you. But all of the data suggests that "your mask will help protect others" and that's important. Maybe that's been the core of our disagreement this whole time?

First of all, Sars cov 2 is covid 19. They are the same thing. Second, these studies show that cloth face covering reduce aerosols and droplets when speaking or coughing. You see that. You cant read them and not see that. Do they offer protection to the wearer? Minimal to none. But that's not the point. The point is, and I cant stress this enough, if you're wearing a mask, you're protecting other people from you. Try to understand, thats the point, especially when this disease will have you being asymptomatic AND contagious for several days before you feel the onset of symptoms. I'm happy to see that we do agree on a couple of things. You do recognize that wearing something in front of your face will prevent particles from ejecting through the mask. And we agree that people are acting like a mask is 100% effective (they most certainly are not) so they aren't keeping distance. I agree with you, being are being unsafe and irresponsible, even while wearing a mask. Masks + distance is more effective that doing either one by itself. But it's impossible at this point to conclude that cloth masks do not reduce the amount of ejected droplets and aerosols from the wearer.

Oh? https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.05.20207241v3 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33087517/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32467353/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33087517/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32624649/ https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800 There are so many. You don't even have to look that hard. How long did you have to search for that one interview you keep citing from April?

You're stumbling over the word "may". "May" is common language used in the medical community. Even when researchers are quite certain, they add that little caveat. The world of science likes to be very precise, never using definitive language. And you realize that article you're citing isnt written by the CDC, right? It's a single article from a contributor. Would you like to see that the CDCs website has evidence of cloth mask efficacy? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html Here's a linked study that finds they can block 51% of cough aerosols. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.05.20207241v3 Here's another noting their usefulness in containing droplet dispersal https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32624649/ Here's another, noting that medical masks and n95 are better, as we know, but that cloth masks help https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33087517/ Here's a visual study from the NEJM where they measure droplet exposure through face cloth material. Pretty effective. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2007800 For now, the science is saying that a well designed cloth mask (see what Dr. Tam is recommending) is effective. Nobody is saying that they are as good as medical masks. If the science begins to show they are useless, I'll change course. But for you to cherry pick one study where cloth masks were used in a hospital setting, for a month, with infected patients... and claim that they are useless in preventing community exposure, because the staff in that study got sick... ...when the leading public health doctors have made it so easy for you to find additional evidence that these measures are indeed effective... Just be honest, man. Just say you dont want to wear one. Dont pretend the science is on your side.

She is talking about people wearing t shirt fabric over their faces and acting like they dont have to social distance anymore. Of course that's ridiculous. This is one persons opinion piece from April. It doesnt take into account the numerous studies done on various types of mask efficacy since then. Fabric masks dont do as good of a job as an n95. However it's well documented that they have an effect, especially when of heavier material, double layered with a filter pouch in between, which is what is recommended for public use. Shes certainly correct in saying that the mask wont solve this problem alone. We need many more precautions in place.

That's from April. And she was right. At the time, there was little scientific evidence to show that cloth masks did anything. Nobody had really studied it before. There wasnt much need. Since April we have learned a lot. The medical community has since come out in favour of cloth masks in the community. Obviously thread count and material makes a huge difference. But they are still recognized as inferior to medical grade masks, of course. But they offer some protection. If you choose to look into her work, shes saying we cant rely on homemade masks alone. We cant think we are invincible because we tied a bandana around our faces. I 100% agree. She advocates for more social distancing, better air filtration, keeping your social circle to your household, avoiding interaction... these are great points! We definitely shouldnt be hugging on our friends in the grocery store because we have a mask on.

There is absolutely conclusive data on viral load.

The virus is transferred on the water droplets though. So you need to be taking the water droplet size into account. Look man, it's really hard for anyone to have their opinions called out on a public forum. I really do appreciate you staying with the discussion. I have to be completely honest, I had this same discussion with my wife back in March. She is a doctor and a public health researcher, beautiful talented lady. I was questioning things with the exact same argument you are making! So I know what you mean. Anyway, she gently explained to me how we are trying to do anything we can to reduce the spread, to not overwhelm Healthcare systems, to keep beds open for other people who need them... for heart attacks, accident victims, stroke victims... She was kind enough to not rub it in as my opinion changed. Anyway, I'm off to help my dad, who did have a heart attack during the pandemic. We are all in this together. Let's all leave space for opinions to change. Hope you got something out of the discussion today.

Right. So you want to be exposed to less of it.

To reduce the spread. This cant be stopped. We are reducing the spread. If this spreads out of control and all of the ICU beds fill up in the hospital... overwhelms our healthcare system... What happens when your dad needs a bed for a heart attack? Or my mom goes in with a stroke? It's about slowing down the spread to a manageable rate until vaccines are in place. That's the point.

That's actually untrue. Viral load (the amount of virus you're exposed to) plays a huge part in if you become infected and in how sick you become if you do get infected.

Your own article clearly says cloth masks have an effect. You're confusing "less effective" with "ineffective"

Cough and sneeze into your elbow. Wear a mask when breathing normally. Honestly, man. People aren't just walking around sneezing every few seconds. 2 meters makes sense for normal breathing.

Okay... this says they are effective, but not as effective as medical grade masks... I think everyone here knows that. But why not wear something that provides some protection to others rather than none?

Can you cite any studies that find masks to be ineffective? I'm honestly curious.

For the sake of discussion, can you post where you've read that they are useless? Everything I've read says they are significantly more effective than doing nothing... which makes sense to me. The masks are usually pretty wet after some length of use... which tells us they are catching lots of the droplets and moistness that we would otherwise be projecting into the air. I am curious what you're reading though.

Couldnt agree more. Absolutely hypocritical.

Totally agree, which confuses me even more. Wouldn't it make sense to put on a mask so that we can hope to keep these small businesses operating?

Sure. Regardless, they are just people. I'm just saying, it's insane to think that our local area MPs are in cahoots with our public health officials

Haha I hear you. They seem pretty ineffective sometimes. But what a crazy system! Imagine if all of us were being potentially fired or re-hired every 4 years, so we had to campaign to win a popularity contest to decide who gets our job. I imagine it would impact how effective we all were. They are trying their best in a difficult system. They are just regular people.