[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

15 hours ago, Silver Ghost said:

As an aside to the above, i dont know of a single case where a team traded a right to a conditional pick before they actually received the pick. Correct me if I am wrong. 

I don't recall it happening either. I don't see any reason it couldn't be traded. The same conditions would simply apply.

[[Poll] Jim Benning]

2 hours ago, kilgore said:

Dumb poll question.

 

No Canucks fan worth his salt is "against" Jim Benning.   That sounds personal.  Even if its strictly professional, framing it as being "against" or "for" him is not the point.  We all are FOR  him succeeding.  The question, if there is one, is rating his results, so far, as leaving us with a glass full or empty.  If his positive moves outweigh the disappointing moves, or how  much confidence do you have in him based on his past deals.  But whatever that poll comes out as, everyone is FOR all his deals to work out in Canucks favour from now on.  Miller will have new life and average at least 20 goals a season for his contract. Lind and Gadjovich and other prospects take a leap forward, he can cajole Tryamkin back, etc. etc.  I'm more than ready to upgrade my opinion of him.  Go Jim Go

.

.

I see it as pretty simple. You're either FOR him being our GM or AGAINST him being our GM. I certainly didn't read it as being for or against him succeeding. Although there are likely some who hated his being hired in the first place that didn't want him to succeed. lol

[Who's Cheering for Goldy & Jake?]

15 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Nah it's not bias lol, I think you're missing the point and concentrating to strictly on these stats, instead of who was given better offensive opportunities on lines that are more for offensive roles, hence the 1st and 2nd are typically more your offensive lines where you will have a better opportunity to play with better offensively skilled players, hence having a better opportunity. Eriksson over the course of the season was given more opportunities in scoring line roles then Virtanen was, I guess I needed to clarify what I meant more my bad with the lines they played on, I wasn't trying to argue for taking faceoffs in the offensive zone, as Eriksson plays the PK and Virtanen doesn't so I would expect Virtanen on lines in the offense more then Eriksson especially after a PK, but doesn't mean Virtanen was put on the top 2 lines more because those stats show more offensive zone starts over Eriksson.

Um, Eriksson had less total ice time per game including his pk time. Meaning those percentages stand. Jake has more ice time per game and more offensive opportunity in his deployment. The fact Jake has more offensive starts and more even strength ice time is an indicator of who spent more time on higher lines. 

[[Poll] Jim Benning]

28 minutes ago, BLU3GR33NBL00D said:

Would appear it does; I'm interested too. Twitter seems like 90% against. I am definitely proJimbo.

 

I think you mean TWIT-ter....

[Who's Cheering for Goldy & Jake?]

15 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Fare enough stats don't lie, but Erkisson played much more on Petey line then Virtanen did at the beginning of the season, Eriksson wasn't given a game or 2 then demoted right away like Virtanen was when he had a chance on the top line even though I see him on the 2nd and not the 1st anyways. Virtanen was given more time here and there on the 2nd line but again didn't last long before being moved down again then back and forth here and there in the 2nd half of the season, just small sample sizes nothing to get something going chemistry wise. Eriksson on the other hand was given those opportunities to try and build chemistry longer then a game or 2, so I still believe Eriksson was given the better offensive opportunities, until the 2nd half of the season when the coach finally came to reality and didn't allow Eriksson near the top 2 lines anymore.

I suspect it's you're own bias towards Eriksson that affects your view of the season. Virtanen got a little time with them. Eriksson got a little more. Over the course of 82 games neither played a significant time on the line. Ultimately the ice time and zone starts don't lie and tell the bigger story.

[Who's Cheering for Goldy & Jake?]

6 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

Okay.... which it should be, but one of them was put into offensive roles more then the other

Not really. Both played on Bo's line. Both got moved around. Jake even got a few shifts with Petey ande Boeser. I'll break it down for you and you decide who had more offensive opportunity:

 

Average PK Ice Time Per Game:

Eriksson - 1:11

Virtanen - 0:01

 

Average PP Ice Time Per Game:

Eriksson - 1:16

Virtanen - 1:15

 

Average Even Str Ice Time Per Game:

Eriksson - 11:36

Virtanen - 13:33

 

Zone starts:

Eriksson - 38% Offensive - 62% Defensive

Virtanen - 49.1% Offensive - 50.9% Defensive

 

Hmmm..... you're right, one was put into offensive roles more. 

 

 

[Who's Cheering for Goldy & Jake?]

22 minutes ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

After hearing the rumor the Canucks were willing to trade Virtanen and their 1st for Barrie and for some reason it didn't fall through, shocked me a bit because this tells me the Canucks are willing to move on from Virtanen, which I'm not ready to do yet myself. Definitely would like to see him more on the 2nd or 1st line tbh, the 3rd and 4th line isn't a good spot for him to produce offensively but I get he was being taught the defensive side more, must of been nice for Eriksson last year to play on the 1st line for a bit to boost his points, I bet if Virtanen was given that same treatment he would of had more points last year then Eriksson. 

18/19 Average Ice time per game:

 

Eriksson - 14:04

Virtanen - 14:49

[[Trade] Blackhawks trade Anton Forsberg, Gustav Forsling to Hurricanes for Calvin de Haan, Aleksi Saarela]

48 minutes ago, Gäz said:

Love this show. Currently in the middle of season 2. (Ten years late, naturally.)

I'm middle of season three, my third run through. 

[Who's Cheering for Goldy & Jake?]

31 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Bruh Vey was gifted the most premium ice time in Canucks history... automatically became 1st line PP without ever proving anything. How much time has Goldy spent on even just the 2nd PP? There's a big difference between Edler the Sedins and Vrbata, compared to Granlund Eriksson Stecher and/or Hutton and Sutter...

Really? Rubbish. Vey wasn't "gifted" anything. He impressed in pre-season, particularly on the PP, to earn what he got to start the regular season and had a decent start to the season as well. When his production stalled his time was reduced and he was scratched games. Some gift. When injuries piled up he moved back up line up because of lack of options. Did he get to the bulk of his ice time with a Pettersson/Boeser like Goldy? No. Vey was mostly third line and 2nd PP unit. He started the year 3rd line and on the 1st PP and produced. He ended the year on 1st PP only when injuries piled up. In between got what he earned - which was less.

 

I'd say Goldy was gifted far more ("in Canucks history" ) due to lack of options than Vey was. Goldy didn't drop often until trades brought in better options. Prior to that he played pretty regularly with Petey and Boes even strength and on the PP. Now that's a gift.

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

9 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Well how do you know that they had a first rounder they could've gotten immediately??

Because I see him as worth a bottom third first with a later pick. Any GM would be thrilled to to get a player like him in the bottom half.

 

9 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

I should've added 1st "from a non playoff team". And yes because they were up against a cap wall. And Its not just up against a cap wall, JT Miller's NTC was just about to kick in too. For them to make this move before that complicated matters is huge. 

 

Not only did they get the salary relief they desperately needed, they got a premium in return.  They didn't have to give up any value on Miller in a move they needed to make. Thats absolutely a home-run.

 

Like we're talking about a mid/late first being fair value from our end, and fair enough. From the Tampa Bay side that's worst case scenario. There's still another side to it where this pick could be much better than just fair value. 

When that first is delivered we may well be a playoff team.

 

So as a GM you would pass on a player, you would love to have, and let another GM have him for less than actual value because the team trading him needs to move cap? That would make you a fool. As owner I'd be asking why you let another team get that player you need for peanuts. It's not like we overpaid on this deal, which is often the case when a team isn't under any pressure to move a player that you want.

 

The only way Tampa gets better than fair value is by waiting two years to get it. It's a possible, unlikely imo, reward in exchange for waiting.

[[Trade] Blackhawks trade Anton Forsberg, Gustav Forsling to Hurricanes for Calvin de Haan, Aleksi Saarela]

4 hours ago, Trebreh said:

Gustav Forsling?! the top 4 Dman we gave up for Clendening?!? the golden child of hfboard Canuck 'fans'... no way.

Of course Canucks fans were upset. He has his own intro...

 

 

[[Report] Ben Hutton to become UFA]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

When you are drafting at the very bottom of each round every year consistently why are you surprised? We only have like 1 or 2 player outside of the 1st round playing on the team. Demko and gaudette and they are still unknown atm

Lame excuse. You have to have some hits outside the top 20 picks. Forget rounds and think draft number. For example: If Gillis was drafting 30th was he drafting after everybody in the first round but has first choice of anybody in the second round. It's perspective. You're at a disadvantage in the first and last round. Gillis and company were simply awful at the draft table. Even Nonis picked up NHL players outside the first round. 

[Who's Cheering for Goldy & Jake?]

First full seasons here:

 

Goldy 63 GP - 7g 20a  27pts -10

Ice time per game = 14:59 total - 2:33 pp time per game

Giveaways 33, takeaways 20

 

Vey 75 GP -  10g 14a 24pts -3 

Ice time per game =  13:10 total - 1:52 pp time per game

Giveaways 28, takeaways 25

 

Fans wanted Vey gone asap - fans want Goldobin to stay. I don't really see much difference other than Goldy getting more opportunity.

 

 

[Canucks reveal new jerseys for 50th season]

1 minute ago, granpappy said:

i'll complain if i like. and it's never over

 

Vancouver Canucks response.....

 

 

[Canucks reveal new jerseys for 50th season]

1 minute ago, granpappy said:

iv'e seen enough depictions by rank amateurs of non-running jc's that are much better examples of a logo than the one used on the green jerseys the club sold a few years ago.

Good for you. The Orca is our longest standing primary and the stick our original (not that I like it). Complaining won't change what's already done. It's over.

[Canucks reveal new jerseys for 50th season]

Just now, granpappy said:

nope, can't think of any good reasons other than after 50 years, we would finally have had a logo representative of our team nickname. or is that thinking too far out of the box?

That running JC simply isn't that popular here.

[[Report] Ben Hutton to become UFA]

36 minutes ago, FlyLow_ said:

True nobody wanted him last year but he had a nice bounce back year. I call BS that they tried to trade him in the middle of a playoff race with our injuries and how playoff crazy our ownership and management are. Yes it's steep, but he's a good depth option it sucks to keep losing nhl players again and again for nothing. Asset management is what seperates the top organizations from the rest.

Where do you think all those ufa's come from every July 1st?

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

3 minutes ago, Schmautzie said:

Part of the reason that I don’t like the trade is that is reminiscent of another trade in Canuck history.

 

When Cam Neely was traded to Boston for Barry Pedersen a first round pick was also included. It was Boston’s choice whether to take the pick that year (7th overall) or the following year.  Canuck nation was happy that Boston chose to wait because they knew that with the addition of Pedersen the Canucks would finish much higher in the standings than the previous year and the pick would not be as valuable.

 

Instead the Canucks used their pick to select Dan Woodley who would play five career NHL games. Boston used the Canuck’s pick (which ended up being 3rd overall) the following year to select Glen Wesley who would play nearly 1500 career games.

 

Not saying the same scenario will play out this time but I’m reading the same arguments from some fans that the pick is bound to be a low one in the next two years and history says it might not be.

The difference is that team was an aging team on the decline, while this one is a younger up and coming team. I'm not worried about the pick.

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

4 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

See, here's what I'm wondering, and I just posted essentially this, in another thread.

 

If Miller was a RFA, and we were to sign him to an offer sheet, I think most fans and probably most sports writers would have been pretty good with it.

 

According to Capfriendly, the compensation for signing someone in the 5 million range is a 1st and a 3rd. Add in a contract dump to balance out the contract numbers and isn't that strange, that a 1st and a 3rd is EXACTLY what it cost us? Established market value for a 5.25 million, top 6 forward.

 

Fair value

Added value - that 1st could be two years away instead of one. 

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

They're not gambling on anything.

Of course they are. They're gambling on a better first rounder than they could have got immediately.

 

 

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Getting a 1st in their situation is a huge win for them.

How so? Because they're up against the cap? So what. This wasn't a player not living up to his contract or having an ntc to limit trade partners. This was a player that has grit, can play any forward position, and on a reasonable deal for another four years. Any team could make an offer on this player that was well worth his 15th overall draft position. Why wouldn't any team offer fair value for him? As a GM in need of a top six multi-purpose forward would you let another GM get him for peanuts because Tampa is cap strapped? That's plain stupid. You only get bent over when the player isn't worth his cap or limits trade your partners.

 

 

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Even if they don't use it to pick is an asset they can trade to improve their team later.

Miller is an asset we could trade down the road. Pointless point.

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

26 minutes ago, Provost said:

Two things, 

 

It isn’t JUST teams and players knowing we need to add, it is ALSO what alternatives are open to us.  Oldnews in an attempt to show how many D were available wrote a list earlier in the thread.  It was damning his own point since there weren’t many top 4 guys on the list, except Ristolainen, and that is someone it would be handy to have a 1st round pick as a trade chip if we had any hopes of getting g him.  Myers agent knows there are more teams that need him and he will have options (a good BATNA) so he can push really hard in negotiations.  If Benning doesn’t land Myers, he has to hope he can find a filler guy like Stralman before other teams snag them all.

 

As far as “disaster” happening.  I don’t know if it will, just my point is that the risk is absolutely there.  It is probably more likely than not that we miss the playoffs this year.  We had a lot of things go right last year with Petterson having a great first half, Markstrom playing as a top 5-10 goalie most of the year, and a bunch of teams in the West that were truly awful.  Even if we are a better team, it will take a lot for us to move up substantially in the standings.

The alternate is waiting for a better deal. There is a whole summer ahead and he may even wait till the season starts and look at another trade. 

 

Of course there's a risk. That's why Tampa is willing to wait up to two years. That'll be their real payoff in exchange for waiting. On the other hand they may be waiting two years to get what Miller is worth now. Everything is risk/reward. Even if they get a top 15 or top 10 pick, they had to wait two years for it. That's the trade off in making them wait.

 

You worry too much. Honestly, I don't get worked up or fret about anything sports related. There's enough real life, that actually affects my life, to worry about.

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

2 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Its debatable. Whether or not the pick is worth more depends where the pick is in the round. Also depends on the strength of the draft class.

 

I wouldn't say Miller is worth 'much more'. Its fair value, its definitely not some kind of steal.

 

 

I'd say it's fair value now if it's a bottom half pick. But Tampa has to wait up to two years to get that pick. They're gambling on where that pick will be in exchange for waiting. I'd call that a bonus in the trade. 

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

15 minutes ago, Provost said:

Except you are entirely missing the entire point.

 

If we were negotiating a trade for a D during the seedy weekend, we aren’t over a barrel because there are several

available and we have the ability to say no thanks and move on to free agency.  That is entirely different than having used our biggest trade chip already and only having 2-3 UFA D who fill out needs.  

 

I have done done a lot of high level negotiating, and there is a concept called a BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement).  Essentially, you do a lot of work ahead of time to put yourself in a position where you aren’t as desperate, and know when waking away is better than signing a bad deal.  In this case, Benning has a terrible BATNA... going into next season with the same D core AND having already played his hand showing that we need to add and go for it so our pick to Tampa isn’t a disaster.

 

If he had been negotiating with a bunch of teams on the weekend, he has a much better walk away BATNA back up plan of moving on to free agency and Myers.

I see that as an exageration. Who in the NHL world didn't think we need to improve our D? Who in the NHL world didn't think we needed another top six forward? And just in case some were too stupid to figure it out Benning actually came out and publicly said he was looking to add a top four d-man and a top 6 forward. One or the other was coming first. The only way I see the Tampa trade becoming a "disaster" is if Miller's game goes completely to hell and Tampa gets a lottery pick from us in two years. Which I see as unlikely. I suspect Benning was looking at getting one by trade and the other through free agency. Miller coming first has no effect on free agency. If anything he's another positive reason for UFA to join this team.

 

We have two years for your disaster not to occur. I really don't get the panic given how much can occur in a single year to improve a team. 

 

[[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick]

10 hours ago, khay said:

Some fans are mad because of the risk factor. Look at Ottawa, they were within one game of SCF, so they traded for Duchene to help them over the top. Well they got to pick 4th overall in two consecutive years and one of those 4th overall isn't going to be playing for them.

Either way we get the player now and they have to wait up to two years. I don't mind that gamble.

[Grading the 2019 Draft]

8 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

What are the terms of the conditional 1st? If the Canucks make the playoffs over the next 2 years TB gets the 1st? 

It's lottery protected next year. We miss the playoffs next year and it gets pushed to 2021 and they get it regardless of where we finish that season. This is why I don't mind the trade at all. The odds are it will be a bottom half 1st rounder and they may have to wait two years to get it. Not a bad deal for a top six forward with grit that can play all three positions.