Electro Rock Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 You are so right. Tuffers are tuffers. If people want to watch tuffers then let them watch them on the tuf show. Don't be putting them on the cards. This is what makes the UFC look so bush league. Dana white is so busy trying to make more cards that he is willing to dilute the product to do so. He should really be looking for ways to make cross promotional fights rather than making us watch substandard fighters. There is plenty of good fighters out there. But Dana's personal glory get's in the way of doing what is best for the sport. Actually I think the problem is the UFC's talent pool is so shallow that, no matter what, it only allows for a truly decent start to finish card maybe 1 in 10 UFCs. Until the payouts get upped we'll continue to see all these souped up bouncers fresh from MMA teaching puppy mills with maybe a few real gems throw in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Actually I think the problem is the UFC's talent pool is so shallow that, no matter what, it only allows for a truly decent start to finish card maybe 1 in 10 UFCs. Until the payouts get upped we'll continue to see all these souped up bouncers fresh from MMA teaching puppy mills with maybe a few real gems throw in. You and I are not going to disagree on that. They had it by the nuggets a couple of years ago when they had both of the major promotions. But in all their intelligence they shut it down because they were afraid of the other Brand of which they owned. They could have had a north american brand and a asian european brand and it would have been great. Now there is affliction and M1 and K1 heros and legends. All they managed to do was drive a lot of good fighters to other promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electro Rock Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 You and I are not going to disagree on that. They had it by the nuggets a couple of years ago when they had both of the major promotions. But in all their intelligence they shut it down because they were afraid of the other Brand of which they owned. They could have had a north american brand and a asian european brand and it would have been great. Now there is affliction and M1 and K1 heros and legends. All they managed to do was drive a lot of good fighters to other promotions. Dana White is reminding more and more of Don King, a super promoter and businessman, but ridiculously greedy and shortsighted. Among other things King was well known for pumping up undeserving fighters while blackballing ones that should have had a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Dana White is reminding more and more of Don King, a super promoter and businessman, but ridiculously greedy and shortsighted. Among other things King was well known for pumping up undeserving fighters while blackballing ones that should have had a shot. Mike tyson being the poster boy for that. Fought cans his entire career. Finally fights someone any good and tries to bite his ear off and still loses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jermi Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Dana White is reminding more and more of Don King, a super promoter and businessman, but ridiculously greedy and shortsighted. Among other things King was well known for pumping up undeserving fighters while blackballing ones that should have had a shot. wut else did they own? pride? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 wut else did they own? pride? Yeah, They bought pride and folded it. Lost 85% of the fighters from there to free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamburgerCowboy Posted April 20, 2009 Share Posted April 20, 2009 Yeah, what a waste of my time. No good fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFCanuck Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Retirement - Ice Man Anderson Silva should be on 'Dancing with the Stars'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead67 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I think the Kryztov (sp?) fight was on the main card more so for Brian Stann's debut in the UFC. Stout/Wiman was in there to be a brief intermission to get the crowd jacked up again. I'm not too sure how you guys expect the UFC to continually buy talent from overseas, as opposed to developing their own. Affliction is proof that that model does not work. TUF has been an excellent farm system for the UFC. Talent such as Kenny Florian, Diego Sanchez, Rashad Evans, Forest Griffin, Keith Jardine, Marcus Davis, Michael Bisping... etc. I love Jason Macdonald and Denis Kang as much as the next Canuck, but you don't get on the main card by losing to B level talent in the octagon. I also loved watching Pride back in the day, it had awesome cards once or twice a year. When Zuffa bought Pride I thought it was going to be the best day ever, so did Dana White. Turns out nobody in Japan cared about an American MMA organization operating inside it's own borders. Do you guys really think that Dana just wanted to dissolve Pride? Yikes. Only Gary Bettman likes losing money. Lastly, super fights are almost always super disappointments. For every Cro Cop vs. Fedor, there was three Sylvia vs. Arlovskis. From a fans perspective, I routinely prefer the undercards to the main events. Luckily for me, there are lots of undercard bouts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I think the Kryztov (sp?) fight was on the main card more so for Brian Stann's debut in the UFC. Stout/Wiman was in there to be a brief intermission to get the crowd jacked up again. I'm not too sure how you guys expect the UFC to continually buy talent from overseas, as opposed to developing their own. Affliction is proof that that model does not work. TUF has been an excellent farm system for the UFC. Talent such as Kenny Florian, Diego Sanchez, Rashad Evans, Forest Griffin, Keith Jardine, Marcus Davis, Michael Bisping... etc. I love Jason Macdonald and Denis Kang as much as the next Canuck, but you don't get on the main card by losing to B level talent in the octagon. . Lastly, super fights are almost always super disappointments. For every Cro Cop vs. Fedor, there was three Sylvia vs. Arlovskis. From a fans perspective, I routinely prefer the undercards to the main events. Luckily for me, there are lots of undercard bouts! I Prefer good fights with good rules and no gimmicky cage. I watch all the fights. In the last year so far. I'm curious about what you are talking about when you say affliction is proof the model doesn't work? What? What hasn't worked for affliction? Their lack name recognition when it comes to fights rather than t shirts? As for pride Dana thought he was going to be able to sign on the fighters because he would be the big kid on the block. Turns out he couldn't and now the fans are the supreme loser. I would prefer less cards with better fighters rather than more cards with lesser fighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead67 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) I Prefer good fights with good rules and no gimmicky cage. I watch all the fights. In the last year so far. I'm curious about what you are talking about when you say affliction is proof the model doesn't work? What? What hasn't worked for affliction? Their lack name recognition when it comes to fights rather than t shirts? As for pride Dana thought he was going to be able to sign on the fighters because he would be the big kid on the block. Turns out he couldn't and now the fans are the supreme loser. I would prefer less cards with better fighters rather than more cards with lesser fighters. It's my understanding that Affliction is having a really big problem making money, which is a shame, because I've liked all of their events so far. If they can find a way to put a show out 3-4 times a year, with the cards they have so far, they'll go a long way to restoring what Pride was all about. I just don't think they can do it. Zuffa thought they would have first dibs on all of those Pride contracts, but actually didn't. Huge oversight on their part. Regardless, they did get most of the big names: Big nog, hendo, wandy, cro cop, shogun, even the african assassin. Fedor was the big fish that got away. Burnett and Lindland had already burned those bridges. I find it hard to call us fans supreme losers, we've been treated to some pretty fine MMA these past few years. I'm not entirely sure what you want. Do you want one supreme organization putting out 6-8 cards a year? Or just have the UFC to revert back to a few shows a year and disperse of half its roster? Anyways, sorry I'm not that articulate in terms of my english, but hopefully you can decipher some of what I speak! Edited April 21, 2009 by canucklehead67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) It's my understanding that Affliction is having a really big problem making money, which is a shame, because I've liked all of their events so far. If they can find a way to put a show out 3-4 times a year, with the cards they have so far, they'll go a long way to restoring what Pride was all about. I just don't think they can do it. Zuffa thought they would have first dibs on all of those Pride contracts, but actually didn't. Huge oversight on their part. Regardless, they did get most of the big names: Big nog, hendo, wandy, cro cop, shogun, even the african assassin. Fedor was the big fish that got away. Burnett and Lindland had already burned those bridges. I find it hard to call us fans supreme losers, we've been treated to some pretty fine MMA these past few years. I'm not entirely sure what you want. Do you want one supreme organization putting out 6-8 cards a year? Or just have the UFC to revert back to a few shows a year and disperse of half its roster? Anyways, sorry I'm not that articulate in terms of my english, but hopefully you can decipher some of what I speak! There have been some good fights in the UFC. There always is. But I rarely ever watch or pay attention to the full card on a UFC any more. I normally only watch 2 or 3 fights. The rest are just on in the background now. Affliction has money trouble because of being an upstart company. Do I want a supreme organization? Tough question. I would like a large sactioning body and promotions to be more like sports franchises through out the world pulling from the same pool. You can have a stable of fighters. But you must be willing to cross promote. I do believe that less shows for the UFC would make for a better product. Eventually you will have enough good fighters to put on more fights. But as it is right now unless they have every fighter we are missing out on the really good match ups. When Pride and UFC were competitors the products were pretty good. As soon as they removed pride the UFC pulled back and began giving us trumped up cards that they considered better for their pocketbooks rather than what was good for the sport. The UFC is about the UFC. MMA should be about the fighters. Look at the UFC heavyweight division. At this moment. They are missing most of the top fighters. That shouldn't be happening. The fact that they will not cross promote means we will likely not get the chance to see the really good fights. edit: I'll add your english is just fine Edited April 21, 2009 by Harbinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead67 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) That would be a pretty solid model, but perhaps you would agree that MMA just doesn't have the market penetration to be able to pull that off? I think the more that UFC grows and starts permeating into these other continents, you'll start seeing flagships like UFC: Europe and UFC: Asia. I think MMA still needs a stable and profitable company like the UFC to get the sport recognized as mainstream first. The whole argument about cross promotions is very tricky from a business standpoint. It's awesome for the fans, but so difficult for promotions to come together. The UFC has no motive to ever want to cross promote, and it would be stupid from their perspective to do so. Why give other promotions the platform to steal future profits from the UFC? It's going to take a looooooooong time to get right, but hope beyond hope, that it doesn't turn into boxing... or pro wrestling! Only 1 recognized title worldwide for each weight class would be preferable, and hopefully Randy Couture never gets lowered into the octagon from the rafters! Edited April 21, 2009 by canucklehead67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) That would be a pretty solid model, but perhaps you would agree that MMA just doesn't have the market penetration to be able to pull that off? I think the more that UFC grows and starts permeating into these other continents, you'll start seeing flagships like UFC: Europe and UFC: Asia. I think MMA still needs a stable and profitable company like the UFC to get the sport recognized as mainstream first. The whole argument about cross promotions is very tricky from a business standpoint. It's awesome for the fans, but so difficult for promotions to come together. The UFC has no motive to ever want to cross promote, and it would be stupid from their perspective to do so. Why give other promotions the platform to steal future profits from the UFC? It's going to take a looooooooong time to get right, but hope beyond hope, that it doesn't turn into boxing... or pro wrestling! Only 1 recognized title worldwide for each weight class would be preferable, and hopefully Randy Couture never gets lowered into the octagon from the rafters! Pride was bigger than UFC is now in europe and Asia. UFC is an anglo promotion. They may have intentions on being world wide. But their product doesn't deliver for worldwide audiences. It's kind of like american football. Has great appeal here and in the states. NFL europe failed as well. Look back at the last card. Instead of making it good. They attempted to make it more poignant by using 40 % canadian fighters. I love Canadian fighters. But I don't care that they are fighting in Canada. I would rather have had better fights than some national pride. I want events with cache instead of events for the sake of having events. Edited April 21, 2009 by Harbinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead67 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Pride was bigger than UFC is now in europe and Asia. UFC is an anglo promotion. They may have intentions on being world wide. But their product doesn't deliver for worldwide audiences. It's kind of like american football. Has great appeal here and in the states. NFL europe failed as well. Look back at the last card. Instead of making it good. They attempted to make it more poignant by using 40 % canadian fighters. I love Canadian fighters. But I don't care that they are fighting in Canada. I would rather have had better fights than some national pride. I want events with cache instead of events for the sake of having events. Mmm, fair enough. Except it was Pride that folded. MMA is different from football, UFC may be an anglo promotion, but its stars are very multinational, and the product itself isn't just a result of american culture. So, I don't like the NFL europe comparison, but I see where you're coming from in that respect. I agree about the Canadian fighters comment. It almost feels patronizing in a sense that they do that. It almost sends a message that Canada will only watch MMA if a Canadian is fighting, which is TOTALLY false. I could see why they did it for the first event in Canada, but it isn't really necessary anymore. I guess I'll just agree to disagree with you on the "events for the sake of having events" bit. I usually watch every event from top to bottom, I guess I'm just a purist in that sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) Mmm, fair enough. Except it was Pride that folded. MMA is different from football, UFC may be an anglo promotion, but its stars are very multinational, and the product itself isn't just a result of american culture. So, I don't like the NFL europe comparison, but I see where you're coming from in that respect. I agree about the Canadian fighters comment. It almost feels patronizing in a sense that they do that. It almost sends a message that Canada will only watch MMA if a Canadian is fighting, which is TOTALLY false. I could see why they did it for the first event in Canada, but it isn't really necessary anymore. I guess I'll just agree to disagree with you on the "events for the sake of having events" bit. I usually watch every event from top to bottom, I guess I'm just a purist in that sense! You are right that pride folded. But the way pride folded is what was wrong. Dana white folded Pride. I have watched every Pride and every UFC all the K1 Heroes, K1 Legends all the M1's the Strikeforces all of the Yammas and the afflictions. Plus I watch some abu dhabis and Kick boxing. I'm a purist. But I don't care to watch substandard fighters. They make for good highlight programs Pride didn't fold. It was dismantled so that Dana white could remove the brand. Edited April 21, 2009 by Harbinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead67 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 You watched the Yammas? You poor soul! Hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbinger Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 You watched the Yammas? You poor soul! Hahaha Scott Ferrall is my favorite sports host. I couldn't miss his antics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfizer Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I think the Kryztov (sp?) fight was on the main card more so for Brian Stann's debut in the UFC. Stout/Wiman was in there to be a brief intermission to get the crowd jacked up again. I'm not too sure how you guys expect the UFC to continually buy talent from overseas, as opposed to developing their own. Affliction is proof that that model does not work. TUF has been an excellent farm system for the UFC. Talent such as Kenny Florian, Diego Sanchez, Rashad Evans, Forest Griffin, Keith Jardine, Marcus Davis, Michael Bisping... etc. I love Jason Macdonald and Denis Kang as much as the next Canuck, but you don't get on the main card by losing to B level talent in the octagon. I also loved watching Pride back in the day, it had awesome cards once or twice a year. When Zuffa bought Pride I thought it was going to be the best day ever, so did Dana White. Turns out nobody in Japan cared about an American MMA organization operating inside it's own borders. Do you guys really think that Dana just wanted to dissolve Pride? Yikes. Only Gary Bettman likes losing money. Lastly, super fights are almost always super disappointments. For every Cro Cop vs. Fedor, there was three Sylvia vs. Arlovskis. From a fans perspective, I routinely prefer the undercards to the main events. Luckily for me, there are lots of undercard bouts! solid post! another good new contributer to the ufc thread along with Big G and Holyovernovacaine. The UFC thread has new blood! I agree they wanted Krystof to kill 2 birds with one stone. One have a tuf contestant people are familiar with, and 2 feature the 2 WEC LHW champions Brian Stann and Steven Cantwell. I think they had Stout on there as the 1 Canadian fighter on the main card. I think thats the one fight that should have been substituted for the Kang Professor X match. Stout was coming off 2 losses in a row and Wiman off 1. Kang deserves better than that because even though he lost last match he was a high rated fighter and performed great in last match but then gassed and got triangled. Other than the ending he was tearing belcher up. and UFC is just UFC. Its trying to be a league just like the NHL. NHL isnt just about hockey world wide its about trying to get the best talent fighting for one championship under one banner. I always hated the ropes in pride. They are not mean for MMA. Everyone always falls out and there are too many constant restarts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfizer Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Scott Ferrall is my favorite sports host. I couldn't miss his antics. he sounds like a chain smoker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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