Systems Not Star Players The 2010/2011-2013/2014 story of the Vancouver Canucks

[Moonshinefe]

There have been numerous threads discussing Powerplays but this thread discusses even more important issues this team has.

Yeah, issues related to systems not star players, and lack of offence, in your own words. Are you saying a PP system that is bottom of the basement isn't relevant to that?

[Caboose]

Good post, but sheltering your top players and letting a checking line play the tough minutes is hardly a revolutionary idea.

[hlinkas wrister]

There have been numerous threads discussing Powerplays but this thread discusses even more important issues this team has.

Excellent OP 23 and Surfer raises some good counter questions as well. But I think the relevance of a power play system (or lack thereof dovetails perfectly with your OP. An effective power play changes your oppositions defensive mindset and creates more room for your offence. The Canucks had the best PP in the NHL in 10-11, but if I was playing against the Canucks today I would hook, hold and slash away without any fear of having to pay the price on the scoreboard.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Excellent OP 23 and Surfer raises some good counter questions as well. But I think the relevance of a power play system (or lack thereof dovetails perfectly with your OP. An effective power play changes your oppositions defensive mindset and creates more room for your offence. The Canucks had the best PP in the NHL in 10-11, but if I was playing against the Canucks today I would hook, hold and slash away without any fear of having to pay the price on the scoreboard.

I posted in a different thread about our PP but that doesn't mean I don't think it's important I just posted in the load of other powerplay threads.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Good post, but sheltering your top players and letting a checking line play the tough minutes is hardly a revolutionary idea.

It was they way AV did it and with the result it brought for us.

[Caboose]

It was they way AV did it and with the result it brought for us.

I disagree, that coaching technique has been around for ages.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

I disagree, that coaching technique has been around for ages.

It has but AV took it to another level and executed it better than everyone before him.

[Bob Singh]

Man, this is a great thread. I loved reading through all that. Here's my take on it:

So on sportsnet today they were talking about how even back in 2011 the canucks didn't really score that many goals. The reason they won was mostly their power play. And this relates to AV's defensive system. They would get an early power play, and they were unstoppable. Soon they had a one or two goal lead. And then they simply defended their lead for the rest of the game. So I guess this team kinda depends(or depended) on their PP.

Also it seems here that AV was so much smarter than torts. I guess he was. Using players where they fit best works better than putting them everywhere. But you also cannot deny that game vs Boston. Torts Crazily outsmarted Claude Julien(There was a thread here about it) and the Canucks beat Boston 6-2. So you can't really say Torts isn't as smart as Av. Maybe AV just has a way to make the PP work that Torts doesn't.

There's also a thread that says the defense isn't moving the puck around, shooting. I gotta agree. A lot of those PP goals did used to be from the blue line, or tipped in front of the net. Those guys such as Salo and Ehrhoff were damn good at this. Right now the defense men aren't doing their job on the PP, and nor does Kesler really go in front of the net as much.

The league also got better at defending the Sedins' techniques kinda like what happened with Ovechkin a few years back I think. He bounced back great this year. Maybe the sedins can figure something out too. Perhaps Torts will try changing their playing style to better fit today's game. Who knows. The sedins have also been playing without Burrows a lot his year. Trust me when the three of them are back and Burrows gets that thing off his face, and Torts kinda understands this line better I'm sure they can do it. I still believe in them. Give it a little (more) time.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Man, this is a great thread. I loved reading through all that. Here's my take on it:

So on sportsnet today they were talking about how even back in 2011 the canucks didn't really score that many goals. The reason they won was mostly their power play. And this relates to AV's defensive system. They would get an early power play, and they were unstoppable. Soon they had a one or two goal lead. And then they simply defended their lead for the rest of the game. So I guess this team kinda depends(or depended) on their PP.

Also it seems here that AV was so much smarter than torts. I guess he was. Using players where they fit best works better than putting them everywhere. But you also cannot deny that game vs Boston. Torts Crazily outsmarted Claude Julien(There was a thread here about it) and the Canucks beat Boston 6-2. So you can't really say Torts isn't as smart as Av. Maybe AV just has a way to make the PP work that Torts doesn't.

There's also a thread that says the defense isn't moving the puck around, shooting. I gotta agree. A lot of those PP goals did used to be from the blue line, or tipped in front of the net. Those guys such as Salo and Ehrhoff were damn good at this. Right now the defense men aren't doing their job on the PP, and nor does Kesler really go in front of the net as much.

The league also got better at defending the Sedins' techniques kinda like what happened with Ovechkin a few years back I think. He bounced back great this year. Maybe the sedins can figure something out too. Perhaps Torts will try changing their playing style to better fit today's game. Who knows. The sedins have also been playing without Burrows a lot his year. Trust me when the three of them are back and Burrows gets that thing off his face, and Torts kinda understands this line better I'm sure they can do it. I still believe in them. Give it a little (more) time.

You can already see them changing their game this season they are starting to go more back door plays this year and relying less on the slot. And yes I agree henrik was playing awesome till he got injured.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

all I remember was their offense in general went way down when Ehrhoff left the team. The overall team offence and power was just not as good. The team asked guys like Edler and probably Hamhius to "step" it up with Ehrhoff gone. Edler did a pretty good job with 49 points. The following year Salo left, then Edler started to struggle. Edler has yet to rise to the occasion of that go to offensive dman.

Bring us back and offensive dman, and overall our offence will go much higher. Look at the standings right now. We are in 7th place, but their are 10 teams in the West with more goals scored then us. Pathetic.

[hlinkas wrister]

the coaching style of "protecting" your best players may have been around for a while, but I definitely think it has some relevance here. AV's habit of starting the Sedins almost exclusively in the O zone minimized a particularly glaring flaw in their makeup- they are not very fast. How many times have you seen the Sedins break out of our zone on an odd man rush and convert? I know Torts like to ride his main players, but sooner or later he's got to see the disadvantage of starting the twins 5 on 5 in our own end. Conversely, in some cases Alain took it too far, because I think the twins have done a pretty decent job killing penalties.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

the coaching style of "protecting" your best players may have been around for a while, but I definitely think it has some relevance here. AV's habit of starting the Sedins almost exclusively in the O zone minimized a particularly glaring flaw in their makeup- they are not very fast. How many times have you seen the Sedins break out of our zone on an odd man rush and convert? I know Torts like to ride his main players, but sooner or later he's got to see the disadvantage of starting the twins 5 on 5 in our own end. Conversely, in some cases Alain took it too far, because I think the twins have done a pretty decent job killing penalties.

There are so many I can't keep count but your right about the AV part. The only reason he was fired was cause the team was unmotivated for some reason after the loss to la. Otherwise he was a much better coach for us then torts is. He knew everyone's strength's and used them there.

[Bob Singh]

You can already see them changing their game this season they are starting to go more back door plays this year and relying less on the slot. And yes I agree henrik was playing awesome till he got injured.

Yes its just a matter of time until they get it right. Thats when they will be back in form

[Henrik Kesler]

It has but AV took it to another level and executed it better than everyone before him.

Having a 3C PDO 103 will do a hell of a lot for having better execution of AVs zone matching strategy. His system wasn't revolutionary, he had elite checking players on his third line and got some pretty good puck luck in both the offensive and defensive zone in 2011.

Now that the Canucks don't have an elite 3C, the Sedins and Kesler have to take harder matchups, and this is fine because the Sedins have become quite good at neutralizing opponents top lines, the issue now becomes whether or not the secondary and tertiary scorers can produce with enough consistency to win games.

As for the Sedins, a lot of their production falling off can be attributed to two things. First, Daniel Sedin, a career 13% shooter, has shot ~8% in his last 100 games. That drastic of a shooting percentage drop off will curtain point totals for the shooter and the players dishing him passes. Second, the powerplay has been garbage for the last 100 games. Hanks Art Ross season aside, the Sedins were usually good for 40-50 5 on 5 points, with the rest (30+) coming on the PP. When the part of the game that provided ~40% of your point totals starts producing half the goals it used to, point production will decrease.

Fix the PP (get it back to 20% conversion rate) and the Sedins will be PPG players.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Having a 3C PDO 103 will do a hell of a lot for having better execution of AVs zone matching strategy. His system wasn't revolutionary, he had elite checking players on his third line and got some pretty good puck luck in both the offensive and defensive zone in 2011.

Now that the Canucks don't have an elite 3C, the Sedins and Kesler have to take harder matchups, and this is fine because the Sedins have become quite good at neutralizing opponents top lines, the issue now becomes whether or not the secondary and tertiary scorers can produce with enough consistency to win games.

As for the Sedins, a lot of their production falling off can be attributed to two things. First, Daniel Sedin, a career 13% shooter, has shot ~8% in his last 100 games. That drastic of a shooting percentage drop off will curtain point totals for the shooter and the players dishing him passes. Second, the powerplay has been garbage for the last 100 games. Hanks Art Ross season aside, the Sedins were usually good for 40-50 5 on 5 points, with the rest (30+) coming on the PP. When the part of the game that provided ~40% of your point totals starts producing half the goals it used to, point production will decrease.

Fix the PP (get it back to 20% conversion rate) and the Sedins will be PPG players.

Ah but you see why are talking about how to fix things cause the sedins on the PP our always cycling anyways(unless they get a great entry).

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Shred being the only one to score against the oilers really show how deep our problems might be.