Tortorella: Canucks Are Getting Old

[Neko]

You wanna see old? Check out the Cup champ 2002 Red Wings. Their top 9 scorers in the playoffs had an average age of 35, including 2 40+ year olds and only one guy under 31. That doesn't include their 37 year old goalie or the 3 other 36 year old D men that saw ice time during the playoffs that year.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/2002.html

Even this year's Red Wings is among the oldest age average in the NHL, they have more 30+ year olds than Vancouver does.

[oldnews]

One of Tortorella's favorite lines seemed to be that he doesn't decide who plays and how much - that the players themselves decide that by their performance.

Well, Linden need not decide that Tortorella is gone - Tortorella himself decided that.

[Blue & Green]

I found it pretty telling when the players were asked what they thought of Tortorella's job and whether or not he should be the coach moving forward, their answers were that they had to look at themselves, and feel responsible - that if they win more games, then AV, and Gillis and possibly Tortorella don't lose their jobs - that they could have been better, should have been better - and look at themselves first and foremost.

Tortorella...they're old, stale, trending and need him to bang away more.

Yes, that was especially infuriating to me. The players take the responsibility upon themselves whereas Torts puts the responsibility on others.

He blames the players, the core, the depth, under the cloak of just being honest. He states that he does not like making excuses but proceeds in making them just the same. The fact is he takes very little responsibility for this past season except for not pushing his players harder.

Apparently the systems and player utilization were not the problem, so why would Torts change his style?

Fortunately, Linden does want change in the teams style of play so I am expecting he will be relieving Torts of his duties very shortly.

[oldnews]

Yes, that was especially infuriating to me. The players take the responsibility upon themselves whereas Torts puts the responsibility on others.

He blames the players, the core, the depth, under the cloak of just being honest. He states that he does not like making excuses but proceeds in making them just the same. The fact is he takes very little responsibility for this past season except for not pushing his players harder.

Apparently the systems and player utilization were not the problem, so why would Torts change his style?

Fortunately, Linden does want change in the teams style of play so I am expecting he will be relieving Torts of his duties very shortly.

Yes, What additionally annoyed the hell out of me was the rest of his Keenan 2.0 show. Avoided the hard questions about how his approach was a misfit and opted instead to offer a whole lot of GMing advice regarding the lack of depth, the stale old core, etc. Is he lobbying for the GM opening, hoping to follow in the footsteps of Iron Mike? It sure sounded like a real convergence in philosophies. Don't coach what you do have - but rather run down what you have with a view to convincing the City to give you a key to remake the organization in your image.

Thank gawd Trevor Linden is back in a leadership role here.

Thanks for essentially wasting a season Torts. If he felt the core was so old and stale, and didn't have the young horses to execute his young man's gameplan, then attempting to storm ahead with his approach had a fairly predictable and forseeable result, didn't it? Was the point to run the team's tank empty by the halfway mark? Was this an entire season devoted to a passive aggressive strategy, which was essentially also the nature of his comments at season ending presser? 'Im not being critical, I'm just being honest when I say that coaching wasn't the problem - it's just that the core is trending, old, stale, etc and if anything, I undercoached them'. k.

What I saw was an absolute loss of answers, responsiveness, and coaching accountability at the half way mark of the season. And there certainly weren't any better answers coming out of that season ending presser. Essentially, give me the best young horses in the NHL and I might provide some results, otherwise, this group is a lost cause. Completely unacceptable imo.

[Cold Hard Truth]

Option 1) Stat Quo and Keep firing coaches every year for the next 4 years and listen to the same players make the same excuses.

or

Option 2)

listen to Torts who speaks the cold hard truth and trade 3-4 vets.

Most people outside of delusional fan boys would agree with Tortorella,

this team desperately needs a massive shakeup.

[TheCammer]

Yes, What additionally annoyed the hell out of me was the rest of his Keenan 2.0 show. Avoided the hard questions about how his approach was a misfit and opted instead to offer a whole lot of GMing advice regarding the lack of depth, the stale old core, etc. Is he lobbying for the GM opening, hoping to follow in the footsteps of Iron Mike? It sure sounded like a real convergence in philosophies. Don't coach what you do have - but rather run down what you have with a view to convincing the City to give you a key to remake the organization in your image.

Thank gawd Trevor Linden is back in a leadership role here.

Thanks for essentially wasting a season Torts. If he felt the core was so old and stale, and didn't have the young horses to execute his young man's gameplan, then attempting to storm ahead with his approach had a fairly predictable and forseeable result, didn't it? Was the point to run the team's tank empty by the halfway mark? Was this an entire season devoted to a passive aggressive strategy, which was essentially also the nature of his comments at season ending presser? 'Im not being critical, I'm just being honest when I say that coaching wasn't the problem - it's just that the core is trending, old, stale, etc and if anything, I undercoached them'. k.

What I saw was an absolute loss of answers, responsiveness, and coaching accountability at the half way mark of the season. And there certainly weren't any better answers coming out of that season ending presser. Essentially, give me the best young horses in the NHL and I might provide some results, otherwise, this group is a lost cause. Completely unacceptable imo.

This^^.

Couldn't agree more and couldn't have said it better.

A coaches' job should be to get the most out of his players and if it means adapting your system to fit the personnel then that is precisely what you do. You then have an open discussion with your GM about the personnel you think you need to run your preferred system.

I don't disagree that the team has gotten a little stale but that is hius job to "refresh" the room. I seriously hope they can this guy.

[CB007]

I hate it when someone in our organization gives out our weaknesses and what we need/want etc etc... giving our hands straight to the other 29 GM's to rip us in potential trades.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

One of Tortorella's favorite lines seemed to be that he doesn't decide who plays and how much - that the players themselves decide that by their performance.

Well, Linden need not decide that Tortorella is gone - Tortorella himself decided that.

That's not quite what he said in his presser. I mean to some extent all players dictate how much they play but he was very clear that he played players too much based on how much he trusted them over others. I'm not sure how that's different than any coach in the league. He's not passing the buck he's taking the blame.

You obviously don't like Torts but you also used to be a staunch AV supporter. I'm sure you had some choice feelings about people stretching their arguments to trash AV. Perhaps? Possibly? You're making a few stretches based on either disliking Torts or disliking that Torts replaced AV? I'm probably reading it totally wrong but I bet Torts is here next season.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

Yes, What additionally annoyed the hell out of me was the rest of his Keenan 2.0 show. Avoided the hard questions about how his approach was a misfit and opted instead to offer a whole lot of GMing advice regarding the lack of depth, the stale old core, etc. Is he lobbying for the GM opening, hoping to follow in the footsteps of Iron Mike? It sure sounded like a real convergence in philosophies. Don't coach what you do have - but rather run down what you have with a view to convincing the City to give you a key to remake the organization in your image.

Thank gawd Trevor Linden is back in a leadership role here.

Thanks for essentially wasting a season Torts. If he felt the core was so old and stale, and didn't have the young horses to execute his young man's gameplan, then attempting to storm ahead with his approach had a fairly predictable and forseeable result, didn't it? Was the point to run the team's tank empty by the halfway mark? Was this an entire season devoted to a passive aggressive strategy, which was essentially also the nature of his comments at season ending presser? 'Im not being critical, I'm just being honest when I say that coaching wasn't the problem - it's just that the core is trending, old, stale, etc and if anything, I undercoached them'. k.

What I saw was an absolute loss of answers, responsiveness, and coaching accountability at the half way mark of the season. And there certainly weren't any better answers coming out of that season ending presser. Essentially, give me the best young horses in the NHL and I might provide some results, otherwise, this group is a lost cause. Completely unacceptable imo.

I mean, he talked extensively about his failings. He was quite clear that he felt the first half of the year he coached the team properly but that he let the room go and didn't do his job as a coach in a way that benefited the room. He was also very clear about talking about how great the leadership group was. He wasn't trashing them he was trashing the job he did more than anything else.

You're reaching pretty hard to make an argument here Oldnews. This is Nucknit territory.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

Option 1) Stat Quo and Keep firing coaches every year for the next 4 years and listen to the same players make the same excuses.

or

Option 2)

listen to Torts who speaks the cold hard truth and trade 3-4 vets.

Most people outside of delusional fan boys would agree with Tortorella,

this team desperately needs a massive shakeup.

I think option 2 may be the extreme rockstar 5 hour energy extra cheese dorrito version of what Torts said. :D

[higgyfan]

Stale not old.

I think the team will hold back on a rebuild until they see if any of the rookies can make the jump.

They will give all of the top youngsters a good luck during trading camp and early season. Luckily, the majority of the best prospects will be eligible to play in the AHL, so the team will be able to periodically call them up.

I could see the management bringing in UFA Niskanen who is a great pmd and pp quarterback. This would perk up the Sedins and our powerplay.

I would like to see a trade of Garrison or Edler

[oldnews]

That's not quite what he said in his presser. I mean to some extent all players dictate how much they play but he was very clear that he played players too much based on how much he trusted them over others. I'm not sure how that's different than any coach in the league. He's not passing the buck he's taking the blame.

You obviously don't like Torts but you also used to be a staunch AV supporter. I'm sure you had some choice feelings about people stretching their arguments to trash AV. Perhaps? Possibly? You're making a few stretches based on either disliking Torts or disliking that Torts replaced AV? I'm probably reading it totally wrong but I bet Torts is here next season.

I'm not taking that quote from the presser.

Tortorella did say exactly that a number of time this season.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with AV nor whether or not I "like" Tortorella.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

I'm not taking that quote from the presser.

Tortorella did say exactly that a number of time this season.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with AV nor whether or not I "like" Tortorella.

And can you think of a good reason why how a player plays doesn't or shouldn't dictate their ice time?

What I said from the presser was his explanation of it.

As for the last part that's fine I'm just giving you what I'm interpreting. I'm seeing a lot of arguments we used to see about AV being made about torts. Not necessarily the same substance of the arguments just the same tactics.

[oldnews]

I mean, he talked extensively about his failings. He was quite clear that he felt the first half of the year he coached the team properly but that he let the room go and didn't do his job as a coach in a way that benefited the room. He was also very clear about talking about how great the leadership group was. He wasn't trashing them he was trashing the job he did more than anything else.

You're reaching pretty hard to make an argument here Oldnews. This is Nucknit territory.

I don't think it's necessary to 'reach' at all, EotM. I've been very specific about the actual issues I have with the job Tortorella did this season - the hockey questions we heard very little about - the specifics of systems, personnel decisions, ice time, defensive pairings, line juggling, etc - and the cliches Tortorella offered as solutions just aren't very convincing. The whole 'I needed to be stricter, keep my foot on the pedal, hold players accountable, etc - not really good enough.

You appear to have jumped into the last page or two of a thread - if you want to take issue with my first post in this thread - by all means - it's more in depth - but if you're looking to skim over the surface as Tortorella did in his presser - I don't have much more to offer here.

[JeremyCuddles]

I don't think anybody said they wanted him gone because of an interview.

My dad did

Torts finally got to say how he felt about Gillis' process. He held on to this core too long and got too attached. They are older then the hills, lets get some youth in here.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

I don't think it's necessary to 'reach' at all, EotM. I've been very specific about the actual issues I have with the job Tortorella did this season - the hockey questions we heard very little about - the specifics of systems, personnel decisions, ice time, defensive pairings, line juggling, etc - and the cliches Tortorella offered as solutions just aren't very convincing. The whole 'I needed to be stricter, keep my foot on the pedal, hold players accountable, etc - not really good enough.

You appear to have jumped into the last page or two of a thread - if you want to take issue with my first post in this thread - by all means - it's more in depth - but if you're looking to skim over the surface as Tortorella did in his presser - I don't have much more to offer here.

I'm just making some comments about posts oldnews. If that bothers you don't make posts. I've read the thread and those are my comments about what I've read from you. Some stuff I agree with and some stuff I think you're reaching to trash the guy. Based on what he said in the press conference I think a lot of your criticisms are less than fair. I think you've got your conclusion and that's interfering with how you're processing what's being said. We have a clear example of that in your second post in the thread.

Personally I don't know if he's the right coach for this team but I'm trying to not jump to things as quickly as some might be.

[CanucksSayEh]

Not so much needing youth, as simply needing different players. Any fresh face in the top 4/6 can make a big difference.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

This

Did I get a prize for winning Van?

[oldnews]

And can you think of a good reason why how a player plays doesn't or shouldn't dictate their ice time?

What I said from the presser was his explanation of it.

As for the last part that's fine I'm just giving you what I'm interpreting. I'm seeing a lot of arguments we used to see about AV being made about torts. Not necessarily the same substance of the arguments just the same tactics.

?

The differences wadr are very significant.

AV did not use the Sedins to kill more penalties than Hansen.

AV did not mistake Alex Edler for his primary shutdown defenseman.

AV did not play the Sedins 24 minutes a night and run them into the ground by New Years.

AV understood the travel and play schedule of the Canucks are regardless of the depth the team had, used his fourth line more than 3 or 4 minutes a night.

AV had role players whom he utilized as such. Two year ago AV had 9 forwards under 40% offensive zone starts, and a half dozne key shutdown guys in the 13-30% range. Last year still 5 guys under 40%.This year, Richardson is pretty much it at 32.5% (and Pelletier for 3 games). Only a handful of regulars over 50% ozone starts. Tortorella has a relative cookie cutter approach to using his forwards that arguably fails to utilize players to their strengths.

AV did not mistake the Edler/Bieksa pairing for a good idea.

AV did not berate players publicly.

AV did not attempt to break into any opposition locker rooms, get himself suspended, and then in his absence wonder about the extent that leadership in the room fell into the players hands.

Specifics about decisions - not cliches.

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

?

The differences wadr are very significant.

AV did not use the Sedins to kill more penalties than Hansen.

AV did not mistake Alex Edler for his primary shutdown defenseman.

AV did not play the Sedins 24 minutes a night and run them into the ground by New Years.

AV understood the travel and play schedule of the Canucks are regardless of the depth the team had, used his fourth line more than 3 or 4 minutes a night.

AV had role players whom he utilized as such. Two year ago AV had 9 forwards under 40% offensive zone starts, and a half dozne key shutdown guys in the 13-30% range. Last year still 5 guys under 40%.This year, Richardson is pretty much it at 32.5% (and Pelletier for 3 games). Only a handful of regulars over 50% ozone starts. Tortorella has a relative cookie cutter approach to using his forwards that arguably fails to utilize players to their strengths.

AV did not mistake the Edler/Bieksa pairing for a good idea.

AV did not berate players publicly.

AV did not attempt to break into any opposition locker rooms, get himself suspended, and then in his absence wonder about the extent that leadership in the room fell into the players hands.

Specifics about decisions - not cliches.

and...

many of those things were explained weren't they? Some others I agree were mistakes on his part which he also takes the blame for. Most of what you wrote are kind of confirming my suspicion. Also you're 6th and 7th points are both incorrect completely.

But this has nothing to do with AV right?