Ryan Strome Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Well @CBH1926, @SabreFan1 and @Warhippy what do you boys think of Canada possibly purchasing 88 new Euro fighters? I believe cbh and warhippy that you guys said the super hornet was the best for Canada? If a stealth jet isn't a requirement then imo the typhoon is superior to the super hornet. Will an Airbus alliance with Bombardier pave the way for Canada to purchase Eurofighter? http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/will-an-airbus-alliance-with-bombardier-pave-the-way-for-canada-to-purchase-eurofighter Airbus eyes Canadian military deal, deepening Bombardier ties http://www.bnn.ca/airbus-eyes-canadian-military-deal-deepening-bombardier-ties-1.909827 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 The Rafale is superior to any of them. For years the French kept it a secret how Spectra worked, the jet was able to fly missions in Libya prior to the US threat suppression, which was impressive, as it flew through S-300 areas without being detected. We now know that the Rafale has an entirely different type of stealth technology which is a part of Spectra called Active Cancellation, which can cause it to disappear from radar screens or even not appear to begin with and in the current F3R upgrade, which is happening now, this capability is being greatly enhanced giving the Rafale a stealth capability close to that of a Raptor. The Rafale will also soon be getting a new M90 engine which will be more powerful than the Typhoon engine. The HMD and two way data link for the meteor missile can be added, then all that remains is making it compatible with US missiles and it's the perfect fighter for Canada. Now watch us go and by Typhoons. Look here under Active Cancellation, the number quoted for the Rafale is before the F3R upgrade currently happening. http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/secrets-of-stealth Also, Spectra maintains a bubble around the Rafale and can target anything that enters that bubble meaning 360 degrees, it has recently demonstrated the ability to fire on a target directly behind the aircraft, using the Mica IR missile, at range, without breaking stride, meaning the aircraft does not have to dogfight. Here is the source. http://www.defesanet.com.br/ho/noticia/18206/What-does-Egypt-get-for-choosing-the-Rafale---Dassault’s-fighter-jet-/ Here is the quote. During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: Well @CBH1926, @SabreFan1 and @Warhippy what do you boys think of Canada possibly purchasing 88 new Euro fighters? I believe cbh and warhippy that you guys said the super hornet was the best for Canada? If a stealth jet isn't a requirement then imo the typhoon is superior to the super hornet. Will an Airbus alliance with Bombardier pave the way for Canada to purchase Eurofighter? http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/will-an-airbus-alliance-with-bombardier-pave-the-way-for-canada-to-purchase-eurofighter Airbus eyes Canadian military deal, deepening Bombardier ties http://www.bnn.ca/airbus-eyes-canadian-military-deal-deepening-bombardier-ties-1.909827 One of my sticking points with Canada's Air Force buying the F-35 is that it has only 1 engine. At some point in the future Canada is going to have to defend it's Arctic territory, and having two engines in extreme cold is preferable. If the F-35's only engine stalls out in the cold, it's going down. There's no second engine to limp back or land with. With Russia working on electro-optical sensor technologies, the F-35 will need constant future upgrades to counter that and keep it's stealth advantage. That would add to the long term cost of a Canadian F-35 program. Money that would be better spent on other parts of it's military. I still have a little hope that Canada will actually some day put together a real navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 38 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said: One of my sticking points with Canada's Air Force buying the F-35 is that it has only 1 engine. At some point in the future Canada is going to have to defend it's Arctic territory, and having two engines in extreme cold is preferable. If the F-35's only engine stalls out in the cold, it's going down. There's no second engine to limp back or land with. With Russia working on electro-optical sensor technologies, the F-35 will need constant future upgrades to counter that and keep it's stealth advantage. That would add to the long term cost of a Canadian F-35 program. Money that would be better spent on other parts of it's military. I still have a little hope that Canada will actually some day put together a real navy. 15 new warships is what the navy is receiving. The Canadian senate is calling for 18 I would like to see at least 18 new ships. I do like the euro fighter and I totally agree that Canada should require two engines. Ironically the Russians built a twin engine stealth fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 22 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: 15 new warships is what the navy is receiving. The Canadian senate is calling for 18 I would like to see at least 18 new ships. I do like the euro fighter and I totally agree that Canada should require two engines. Ironically the Russians built a twin engine stealth fighter. The Russians are already looking to replace the Sukhoi Su-57 PAK-FA with a next gen fighter. They want the new fighters to be able to "see" stealth fighters from other countries from miles away. That's one of their main goals and why they are experimenting with new radar technologies. What is the make-up of the 15-18 ships? What classes, armaments, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 @aliboy I have nothing against the rafale in fact imo they have made the best offer to Canada, technology transfer and building them in Canada. This guy in his blog tells about some concerns. http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/p/billed-as-omnirole-fighter-dassault.html?m=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 33 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said: The Russians are already looking to replace the Sukhoi Su-57 PAK-FA with a next gen fighter. They want the new fighters to be able to "see" stealth fighters from other countries from miles away. That's one of their main goals and why they are experimenting with new radar technologies. What is the make-up of the 15-18 ships? What classes, armaments, etc.? Kinda unknown or classified at this time. Here are some links. Hair gel confirmed earlier this year it would be 15 ships. Keep in mind Canada is going with a off the shelf design to save 2 years as the project is behind schedule. Our 4 destroyers are all retired. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Class_Surface_Combatant_Project http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1475921-ottawa-commits-60-billion-for-15-new-navy-ships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 @SabreFan1 some in the know are suggesting the navy is hoping to set it up so that the new British type 26 gets selected. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_26_frigate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 17 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: @aliboy I have nothing against the rafale in fact imo they have made the best offer to Canada, technology transfer and building them in Canada. This guy in his blog tells about some concerns. http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/p/billed-as-omnirole-fighter-dassault.html?m=1 Many people, such as this writer, have been unaware of the real capabilities of the Rafale. The Active Cancellation makes it a Gen 4.9 if not true Gen 5 aircraft, it's just that it uses a different kind of stealth. Qatar has already purchased HMD's for their Rafale's, so it's not an issue. The big issue is using the American missiles, as I'm not certain what is required, but this would be the only remaining hurdle. The new engine will be 65kN to 104kN which is outstanding, gives it F-15 type power to weight ratio. In the case of India, if they want to build the aircraft in India then the quality should fall on them, not France. And, if we decide to build and/or assemble the aircraft in Canada, it's up to us to do a good job, and there could be some additional cost involved as we have not built military fighters in Canada for decades now, we would be re-acquiring that capability. I do think it's interesting that people seem to think that the Typhoon would be the better choice due to more partner countries, meaning more and better updates, yet the AESA radar for the Typhoon has experienced multiple delays, now not slated to happen until 2020. Yet the Rafale has been getting many updates and another one is already planned for its AESA radar. In my mind the upgraded Active Cancellation technology and new engines will put Rafale in a class that will leave Typhoon behind. I do agree there are a couple of challenges but it is a superior aircraft, more on a par with the F-35 and F-22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 41 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said: The Russians are already looking to replace the Sukhoi Su-57 PAK-FA with a next gen fighter. They want the new fighters to be able to "see" stealth fighters from other countries from miles away. That's one of their main goals and why they are experimenting with new radar technologies. What is the make-up of the 15-18 ships? What classes, armaments, etc.? Russians always have lot of military projects that they work on from PAK DA, PAK FA, Armata, Shtorm, Sarmat etc. The only problem is, in the end most end up being just prototypes. Scaling up production has always been an issue for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 They tried to get India to invest in the PAK DA, but the indians took a good look at the project and wanted nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 5 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: Well @CBH1926, @SabreFan1 and @Warhippy what do you boys think of Canada possibly purchasing 88 new Euro fighters? I believe cbh and warhippy that you guys said the super hornet was the best for Canada? If a stealth jet isn't a requirement then imo the typhoon is superior to the super hornet. Will an Airbus alliance with Bombardier pave the way for Canada to purchase Eurofighter? http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/will-an-airbus-alliance-with-bombardier-pave-the-way-for-canada-to-purchase-eurofighter Airbus eyes Canadian military deal, deepening Bombardier ties http://www.bnn.ca/airbus-eyes-canadian-military-deal-deepening-bombardier-ties-1.909827 Transfer of the technology is the most important part of the deal, if Canada is unable to produce its own aircrafts that is. In case of large scale war, you don't want to be dependent on weapons built overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, aliboy said: Many people, such as this writer, have been unaware of the real capabilities of the Rafale. The Active Cancellation makes it a Gen 4.9 if not true Gen 5 aircraft, it's just that it uses a different kind of stealth. Qatar has already purchased HMD's for their Rafale's, so it's not an issue. The big issue is using the American missiles, as I'm not certain what is required, but this would be the only remaining hurdle. The new engine will be 65kN to 104kN which is outstanding, gives it F-15 type power to weight ratio. In the case of India, if they want to build the aircraft in India then the quality should fall on them, not France. And, if we decide to build and/or assemble the aircraft in Canada, it's up to us to do a good job, and there could be some additional cost involved as we have not built military fighters in Canada for decades now, we would be re-acquiring that capability. I do think it's interesting that people seem to think that the Typhoon would be the better choice due to more partner countries, meaning more and better updates, yet the AESA radar for the Typhoon has experienced multiple delays, now not slated to happen until 2020. Yet the Rafale has been getting many updates and another one is already planned for its AESA radar. In my mind the upgraded Active Cancellation technology and new engines will put Rafale in a class that will leave Typhoon behind. I do agree there are a couple of challenges but it is a superior aircraft, more on a par with the F-35 and F-22. Don't take that guy all that serious either I just figured you would enjoy the read. If HMD is not an issue and they can be compatible with our weapon stock pile then it's a great offer Rafale is making to us. Good read here and short video inside. https://www.google.ca/amp/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.2577234 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, CBH1926 said: Transfer of the technology is the most important part of the deal, if Canada is unable to produce its own aircrafts that is. In case of large scale war, you don't want to be dependent on weapons built overseas. Rafale offered a technology transfer in 2014 and the U.S won't allow either builder to offer that as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, aliboy said: They tried to get India to invest in the PAK DA, but the indians took a good look at the project and wanted nothing to do with it. I think India is in fact a partner in the new Russian stealth jet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 32 minutes ago, CBH1926 said: Russians always have lot of military projects that they work on from PAK DA, PAK FA, Armata, Shtorm, Sarmat etc. The only problem is, in the end most end up being just prototypes. Scaling up production has always been an issue for them. If they can get over their ADD and just concentrate on a new 5th-gen fighter with anti-stealth capabilities, they would be in decent shape. I still laugh though that Putin wants to start building more super carriers for the Russian Navy when he can barely afford to keep what he already has. When you build a super carrier, you not only have to build the craft, but a whole entire battle group to go with it or you just pretty much end up with a floating runway that can be taken out from above and below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 29 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: I think India is in fact a partner in the new Russian stealth jet. Most of the sources I've seen suggest it's a mess, such as https://thediplomat.com/2017/05/india-russia-5th-generation-fighter-jet-deal-is-lost/ Not sure what the final outcome will be, but there seem to be all kinds of problems with the program and India wants no part of the ~$6B price tag. If you have some other sources please post them, as I've seen a number of sources that say its a mess. Ok, so I guess they did work it out, found this. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08/09/india-to-finalize-fifth-gen-fighter-deal/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabreFan1 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 30 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: @SabreFan1 some in the know are suggesting the navy is hoping to set it up so that the new British type 26 gets selected. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_26_frigate Unless Canada is willing to goose production by dumping a lot of cash into the UK program. It's going to be quite a number of years before the Brits can get around to making the new ships that Canada would need. They still have to fulfill their own country's quotas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, aliboy said: Most of the sources I've seen suggest it's a mess, such as https://thediplomat.com/2017/05/india-russia-5th-generation-fighter-jet-deal-is-lost/ Not sure what the final outcome will be, but there seem to be all kinds of problems with the program and India wants no part of the ~$6B price tag. If you have some other sources please post them, as I've seen a number of sources that say its a mess. Oh I know it's been a mess similar to the f35 I suppose. I'm just saying I believe India is a partner in the project from the beginning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi/HAL_FGFA I will add I haven't looked into this recently but I just googled it and you are right it appears India isn't happy. Strange I thought they helped develop it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 minute ago, SabreFan1 said: Unless Canada is willing to goose production by dumping a lot of cash into the UK program. It's going to be quite a number of years before the Brits can get around to making the new ships that Canada would need. They still have to fulfill their own country's quotas. All the ships will be built in Canada. Canada is going with a off the shelf design just to save 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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