Hunt for the Avro

[elvis15]

Love the history of the Avro Arrow, would be interesting to build off of that again.

[SabreFan1]

Just now, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Which is exactly what Diefenbonehead did, and which is why Canada needs to correct that.  Here's hoping that our leadership has bigger balls that Diefenbonehed, and isn't so goddamned myopic.  

If I were Canadian I wouldn't hold my breath.  There's a troubling current trend in Canadian politics becoming like the political system in the US.  I'm hoping that Canada can avoid their own version of Trump.  O'Leary had a chance until he ended up polling his rapidly eroding French-Canadian support and wisely dropped out.

[SabreFan1]

2 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

Love the history of the Avro Arrow, would be interesting to build off of that again.

It would need a major redesign.  It's much too big for modern day jets, but the idea behind it was grand.  It was like greased lightning when it reached it's top speed.

[Gurn]

8 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

It would need a major redesign.  It's much too big for modern day jets, but the idea behind it was grand.  It was like greased lightning when it reached it's top speed.

Todays jet engines pack more thrust for their size versus back in the day, it should not be  hard to shrink the arrow to reflect smaller engines. Most likely the electronics required have shrunk in size as well, not sure about weapons packages.

The Arrow was using Pratt-Whitney J-75 rated for 23,450 lbs of thrust and the much smaller Cf-18 uses GE F404s rated at 16,000 lbs.

The F-22 Raptor has a thrust rating of 26,000 lbs or 35,000 with afterburners.

 

I would not envision a modern arrow as a dog fighter, but more of a get in range quickly, launch  anti aircraft missiles, and get out of range quickly plane.

[AV's Coin]

Interestingly:

 

The Arrow was the culmination of a series of design studies begun in 1953 examining improved versions of the Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck.

[SabreFan1]

1 minute ago, gurn said:

Todays jet engines pack more thrust for their size versus back in the day, it should not be  hard to shrink the arrow to reflect smaller engines. Most likely the electronics required have shrunk in size as well, not sure about weapons packages.

The Arrow was using Pratt-Whitney J-75 rated for 23,450 lbs of thrust and the much smaller Cf-18 uses GE F404s rated at 16,000 lbs.

The F-22 Raptor has a thrust rating of 26,000 lbs or 35,000 with afterburners.

 

I would not envision a modern arrow as a dog fighter, but more of a get in range quickly, launch  anti aircraft missiles, and get out of range quickly plane.

That's all Canada really needs is a hit and run air-air, air-ground plane.  The biggest redesign however will come in shrinking it's detectable cross-section.  US 5th generation planes have a detectable cross-section that shows up on radar as the size of a golf-ball, whereas the F-35 variants that it ships to it's allies purposely have a built-in cross-section of roughly a basketball. 

 

The US refuses to export the F-22 to anybody because of the huge advantage that it has with it.

[ice orca]

1 hour ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Which is exactly what Diefenbonehead did, and which is why Canada needs to correct that.  Here's hoping that our leadership has bigger balls than Diefenbonehead, and isn't so goddamned myopic.  

My old man used to call him Squakenhoofer.

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, ice orca said:

My old man used to call him Squakenhoofer.

Dief the thief.

[Ryan Strome]

I would love to see the Avro rebuilt however this is not what the search is about.

 

They already have the info they need if they want it.

 

 

I certainly trust this retired General more then any Canadian government. As he claims it would be cheaper and better then the f35.

 

 

[Ghostsof1915]

Rather see tax dollars on building a new one or at least maybe some replicas? 

 

 

[SabreFan1]

27 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

I would love to see the Avro rebuilt however this is not what the search is about.

 

They already have the info they need if they want it.

 

I certainly trust this retired General more then any Canadian government. As he claims it would be cheaper and better then the f35.

He actually said a newly re-designed Arrow would be better fit for Canada's needs which is true.  Canada mainly just needs a hit and run aircraft which a newer, smaller, quicker Arrow would be great for.  If Canada were to try and emulate the US or Russia's Air Force, it couldn't do it with just the Arrow design. 

 

Now if Canada could get it's mitts on a 75 or so of F-22's (I know, pipe dream) coupled with the current fleet, it would become a top 5 Air Force.  Even 75 latest Advanced-variant Super Hornets would be one heck of an upgrade.  However, like the general said, those aren't the kind of craft that Canada needs in it's current supporting role.

[CBH1926]

To start a plane production it takes a lot of time effort and money.

The only way it's worth doing it is to be able to sell it to other countries as well.

Since Canada only needs few dozen fighter planes, it's much cheaper to buy.

 

 

[elvis15]

3 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

It would need a major redesign.  It's much too big for modern day jets, but the idea behind it was grand.  It was like greased lightning when it reached it's top speed.

Agreed it'd require an update, but I'd love to see it built with an homage in styling and continue as a true interceptor for use in Canada. It was built excellently for the purpose of patrolling Canadian skies across the whole width of the country.

 

Sure, our planes aren't really used outside of Canada for that interceptor purpose, but then there's no real need for a connection to the Avro Arrow without it.

[LordCanuck]

i like the idea but in the end its going to cost too much money. 

[HerrDrFunk]

It needs a new name. Avro Arrow was an excellent name in its day but time marches on.

[Ryan Strome]

7 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

He actually said a newly re-designed Arrow would be better fit for Canada's needs which is true.  Canada mainly just needs a hit and run aircraft which a newer, smaller, quicker Arrow would be great for.  If Canada were to try and emulate the US or Russia's Air Force, it couldn't do it with just the Arrow design. 

 

Now if Canada could get it's mitts on a 75 or so of F-22's (I know, pipe dream) coupled with the current fleet, it would become a top 5 Air Force.  Even 75 latest Advanced-variant Super Hornets would be one heck of an upgrade.  However, like the general said, those aren't the kind of craft that Canada needs in it's current supporting role.

At this point I'm thinking Canada will buy 88 f35s. Couple reasons, the spat with Boeing and it's what the military wants.

 

7 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

To start a plane production it takes a lot of time effort and money.

The only way it's worth doing it is to be able to sell it to other countries as well.

Since Canada only needs few dozen fighter planes, it's much cheaper to buy.

 

 

Japan is in the same boat. They designed a dual engine stealth fighter but may not proceed due to the cost of the program.

[Ryan Strome]

7 hours ago, LordCanuck said:

i like the idea but in the end its going to cost too much money. 

The thing is it creates jobs at home rather than creating jobs in the U.S and boosting the U.S economy.

[Ryan Strome]

It will be between f35 and f18 and the spat with Boeing could make Lockheed Martin the winner. 

 

Germany and France are collaborating on a new jet so that likely takes rafale out and the countries with the euro fighter are going with f35 so the euro fighter would be out. Let's be honest did a European jet really have a chance? 

 

Only other European option is the gripen from Sweden and it is considered a major long shot.

[SabreFan1]

5 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

At this point I'm thinking Canada will buy 88 f35s. Couple reasons, the spat with Boeing and it's what the military wants.

There are several variants of the f35.  The one the general said Canada was interested in buying is the one that was developed for the US Marine Corp.  It's the heaviest and slowest variation of the plane.

[Ryan Strome]

2 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

There are several variants of the f35.  The one the general said Canada was interested in buying is the one that was developed for the US Marine Corp.  It's the heaviest and slowest variation of the plane.

All the f35s are slow, it's ridiculous. They're a first strike jet that's it. Meanwhile there stealth isn't so stealthy.