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The Benefit Of Qualifying Raymond


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#1 Kack Zassian

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:50 AM

Your hard pressed to find a Canucks fan who is satisfied with Raymonds play this year (myself included)

Benefits
- Not many quality free agents sign in the 2-2.5 million dollar range (Marco Sturm anyone?)
- With a full offseason training, its unlikely he is as bad as he was this year.

- If Raymond underperforms, there is likely a market for him (trade)
- Wolski was still able to fetch a 3rd at the deadline (better than losing him for nothing @ free agency)

- Worst case scenario he becomes this years Blake Comeau.
- Comeau went pointless in 16 games, was claimed off waivers by Calgary.

If we do not qualify Raymond, we are losing out on the potential for him to rebound in any form. He could go back to being a 50 point player, stay a 25-30 point player, or go pointless all season. We don't know that yet.

#2 needtogetswole

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:53 AM

The thing is no matter what he will always be a perimeter player

He will always try hitting the boards instead of the guy
He will always go out-wide and take a pointless wrist shot
He will always be a pansy

to be successful you've either got to have skill - which helps you with assists and goals aka hank
or you've got to go to the net hard which he doesn't have either.

all he's got is speed - i hope for his sake one day we play a bunch of beer leaguers and he looks fantastic
but it just won't happen

I'm tired of being disappointed - He will always be that guy that skates to the boards and falls down

my opinion anyways.

#3 needtogetswole

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:54 AM

I got off track a bit - I do understand what your trying to say

I would like something back for him at least - I don't care if it's a high draft pick - something would be good!

#4 DeNiro

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:55 AM

I dunno, if he hasn't gotten it by now, how long are we gonna wait?

It's like every time he figures out how to be effective, he reverts back to his old bad habits.

I'd honestly rather give Schroeder or Sweatt a shot in the lineup. They come at more than half the cost, and way less risk because they can always be sent back down to the Wolves.

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#5 Kack Zassian

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:00 AM

I dunno, if he hasn't gotten it by now, how long are we gonna wait?

It's like every time he figures out how to be effective, he reverts back to his old bad habits.

I'd honestly rather give Schroeder or Sweatt a shot in the lineup. They come at more than half the cost, and way less risk because they can always be sent back down to the Wolves.


We've seen players who miss their offseason training struggle during the year. Raymond obviously missed out on offseason training, Kesler hasn't performed like he had in the previous season, Malhotra has struggled at times, and last year Ballard had a rough season because of his hip surgery.

I think we can all agree it hasn't been a great season for him, and it could be due to a lack of an offseason, or it could 100% be a different form of regression in his game.

Comeau was waived after 16 games this season, and I could see Raymond getting a similar leash. It also gives you an extended look at your players looking to make the big club (Sweatt, Schroeder, Jensen, etc).

I think when it comes to Raymond, the team needs to be 100% certain he won't regain form before giving up on him.

#6 Kack Zassian

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:09 AM

The thing is no matter what he will always be a perimeter player

He will always try hitting the boards instead of the guy
He will always go out-wide and take a pointless wrist shot
He will always be a pansy

to be successful you've either got to have skill - which helps you with assists and goals aka hank
or you've got to go to the net hard which he doesn't have either.

all he's got is speed - i hope for his sake one day we play a bunch of beer leaguers and he looks fantastic
but it just won't happen

I'm tired of being disappointed - He will always be that guy that skates to the boards and falls down

my opinion anyways.


Heres an interesting read on the notion that Raymond is a perimeter player
http://vansunsportsb...rimeter-player/

Obviously playing physical isn't his strong suit, but his speed and positioning make him effective when it comes to forechecking.

I also don't think "He will always be that guy that skates to the boards and falls down" is a fair statement. This hasn't always been true about his game, and is something that can be worked on easily.


Again, the idea is basically retain him, and almost give him an extended training camp (10-15 games) and decide how valuable he is moving forward. His offseason could have a large impact on his future with this team.

#7 Jai604

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:18 AM

He will be qualified for sure, without a doubt.

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#8 needtogetswole

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:22 AM

I'd love it if he beefed up another 10-20 lbs and wasn't as scared as he is now...
It'll take some of his speed but it'll add to his game, making him better overall

#9 needtogetswole

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:24 AM

Heres an interesting read on the notion that Raymond is a perimeter player
http://vansunsportsb...rimeter-player/

Obviously playing physical isn't his strong suit, but his speed and positioning make him effective when it comes to forechecking.

I also don't think "He will always be that guy that skates to the boards and falls down" is a fair statement. This hasn't always been true about his game, and is something that can be worked on easily.


Again, the idea is basically retain him, and almost give him an extended training camp (10-15 games) and decide how valuable he is moving forward. His offseason could have a large impact on his future with this team.


Well it depends what we get him for, if he's asking for too much which he shouldn't then I do agree with giving him 10-20games but he should be on a very short leash!

not even a leash; AV's hand's should always be around his throat.

#10 Ray_Cathode

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:12 AM

Your hard pressed to find a Canucks fan who is satisfied with Raymonds play this year (myself included)

Benefits
- Not many quality free agents sign in the 2-2.5 million dollar range (Marco Sturm anyone?)
- With a full offseason training, its unlikely he is as bad as he was this year.

- If Raymond underperforms, there is likely a market for him (trade)
- Wolski was still able to fetch a 3rd at the deadline (better than losing him for nothing @ free agency)

- Worst case scenario he becomes this years Blake Comeau.
- Comeau went pointless in 16 games, was claimed off waivers by Calgary.

If we do not qualify Raymond, we are losing out on the potential for him to rebound in any form. He could go back to being a 50 point player, stay a 25-30 point player, or go pointless all season. We don't know that yet.


It is the same as Kesler, they both need an off season to get in game shape for a full season after recovering from serious injuries.

#11 Ray_Cathode

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:19 AM

Heres an interesting read on the notion that Raymond is a perimeter player
http://vansunsportsb...rimeter-player/

Obviously playing physical isn't his strong suit, but his speed and positioning make him effective when it comes to forechecking.

I also don't think "He will always be that guy that skates to the boards and falls down" is a fair statement. This hasn't always been true about his game, and is something that can be worked on easily.


Again, the idea is basically retain him, and almost give him an extended training camp (10-15 games) and decide how valuable he is moving forward. His offseason could have a large impact on his future with this team.


Finally, a rational appraoch instead of people just repeating other people's BS. "If you can keep your head about you when all around you others are losing their's and blaming it on you..."

#12 Cr8zyCanuck

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:38 AM

We've seen players who miss their offseason training struggle during the year. Raymond obviously missed out on offseason training, Kesler hasn't performed like he had in the previous season, Malhotra has struggled at times, and last year Ballard had a rough season because of his hip surgery.

I think we can all agree it hasn't been a great season for him, and it could be due to a lack of an offseason, or it could 100% be a different form of regression in his game.

Comeau was waived after 16 games this season, and I could see Raymond getting a similar leash. It also gives you an extended look at your players looking to make the big club (Sweatt, Schroeder, Jensen, etc).

I think when it comes to Raymond, the team needs to be 100% certain he won't regain form before giving up on him.


The problem is you're grasping at straws. If a player continues year after year to show he will not break into a solid top 6 status, then unfortunately that's the writing on the wall.

I know you want something back for him, but in today's climate we are going to have to take on a similar player, so again we lose out because we are stuck with an unwanted (or inconsistent) player who we likely can't be sent down to the wolves (because a player of Raymond's similar ilk would be sent to the minors and clear waivers prior to a trade if it was at all possible).

Giving Raymond an "extended training camp" is not going to teach us anything we don't already know about him. He is in no man's land. Can't play a bottom 6 role as effectively as anyone we have there, and can't step up his game to fit into a top 6 role either. He is forever in no man's land, and has shown that through his tenure with the Canucks organization.

There is no magic number of games, or an offseason, that will likely show us what we don't already know. We know Raymond. We have a vast collection of video and statistical evidence to prove he is like so many other "perimeter players" before him. He fits the mould specifically when it comes to his ice time, plus minus, and GPG averages. It all screams mediocre.

For a team that needs a top 6 plug, fine. But this is the Canucks we are talking about. Raymond is likely on his way out as soon as the opportunity arises. Trade, or no trade. He is gone and you can quote this and save it until that day comes.

Edited by Cr8zyCanuck, 05 April 2012 - 04:39 AM.


#13 Bodee

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:00 AM

It all seems relative to me. We may be paying too much for a brilliantly defensive forward, who on his day is one of the most exciting players to watch in hockey...........but can also be one of the most frustrating. We cannot judge a player properly either who has been threatened by a career ending injury and who because of it missed a great deal of conditioning and match practice,

By all means, as is the won't on here, keep comparing him to perfection, but I would rather compare him to some of our own players who are faring little better and with less of an excuse...........or even one or two other players around.

I have said it before but will repeat it again. You need speed AND defence in the playoffs........as well as points. Mason Raymond has been laying on quite a few chances for other players who are not converting, that is not his fault. He is also very unlucky with his shots/goal percentage, hopefully that may change in the playoffs.

He and Manny deserve a bit more loyalty on here.




Daniel Paille - 27- $1.15


REGULAR SEASON 67 9 6 15 -4 15 0 2 1 84 10.7

Dustin Penner - 29 - $4.25
REGULAR SEASON 67 9 6 15 -4 15 0 2 1 84
10.7


Jarret Stoll - 29 - $3.4
REGULAR SEASON 76 5 14 19 3 58 0 0 0 128 3.9

Daymond Langkow - 35 - $4.5
REGULAR SEASON 76 5 14 19 3 58 0 0 0 128 3.9

Mason Raymond - 26 - $2.6
REGULAR SEASON 54 10 10 20 4 18 1 1 2 125 8.0
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#14 spinarama

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

when raymond tko's lucic you're going to watch his value rise quickly.

#15 wrath_jason

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:36 AM

when raymond tko's lucic you're going to watch his value rise quickly.



Mayray would just fall down trying to throw his punch...

#16 spinarama

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:51 AM

no way. you have to look beyond the obvious.
it's a question of desire.

roberto duran was 5 ft 7 inches tall.
raymond has around 4 or 5 inches on that.
duran weighed between 135 and 145 lbs.
again raymond has at least 40 lbs on that.

yet, if you put duran in his prime, in a ring with lucic
most money would go on duran. why? willpower. desire.

and yes lucic has taken boxing lessons.

duran was nicknamed manos del piedra which means hands of stone.
also nicknamed el cholo, the dog.

Edited by spinarama, 05 April 2012 - 05:54 AM.


#17 spinarama

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:53 AM

so you pack 15 lbs of muscle onto raymond.
you put him in a ring and teach him technique.

#18 georgeparrosesmustache

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:55 AM

I think there ar younger prospects in the system that can put up the same points Raymond has for a cheaper cap hit.

I also feel that Raymond has no identity or role on this team.

At the moment I just look at him as a depth guy similar to Ebbet.

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#19 spinarama

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:56 AM

you're ignoring the fact that he's training in private.
uppercuts, jabs .....

#20 spinarama

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:57 AM

left hooks right hooks ..................

#21 pylon05

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:26 AM

With Raymond; Gillis will allow him to sit most of the summer and see if anyone offersheets him. If they do at $1,567,044 to $3,134,088 Gillis wil probably take the second rounder. I don't see anyone going over the higher part of this but if they did it would give us a first and a third which would be sick for Raymond.

#22 riffraff

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:33 AM

It all seems relative to me. We may be paying too much for a brilliantly defensive forward, who on his day is one of the most exciting players to watch in hockey...........but can also be one of the most frustrating. We cannot judge a player properly either who has been threatened by a career ending injury and who because of it missed a great deal of conditioning and match practice,

By all means, as is the won't on here, keep comparing him to perfection, but I would rather compare him to some of our own players who are faring little better and with less of an excuse...........or even one or two other players around.

I have said it before but will repeat it again. You need speed AND defence in the playoffs........as well as points. Mason Raymond has been laying on quite a few chances for other players who are not converting, that is not his fault. He is also very unlucky with his shots/goal percentage, hopefully that may change in the playoffs.

He and Manny deserve a bit more loyalty on here.




Daniel Paille - 27- $1.15


REGULAR SEASON 67 9 6 15 -4 15 0 2 1 84 10.7

Dustin Penner - 29 - $4.25
REGULAR SEASON 67 9 6 15 -4 15 0 2 1 84
10.7


Jarret Stoll - 29 - $3.4
REGULAR SEASON 76 5 14 19 3 58 0 0 0 128 3.9

Daymond Langkow - 35 - $4.5
REGULAR SEASON 76 5 14 19 3 58 0 0 0 128 3.9

Mason Raymond - 26 - $2.6
REGULAR SEASON 54 10 10 20 4 18 1 1 2 125 8.0


Im sorry but this has just never happened.

That statement is literally an insult to the Sedins and Burrows as well as a long list of other NHlers before Raymond.

Not hating on the guy but in watching all his time as a Canuck, I cant recall Raymond singlehandedly blowing me away with any display of skill - certainly not with some defensive work.
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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#23 riffraff

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:35 AM

so you pack 15 lbs of muscle onto raymond.
you put him in a ring and teach him technique.


Posted Image
Posted Image


CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#24 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:43 AM

There isn't any space for him in our line up... He can't play on the bottom two lines, and Burrows, Daniel, Booth are pretty much bound to the top six, as for the last spot: Kass, Lappy, Higgins and Hansen are all better players than him...

#25 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:45 AM

It all seems relative to me. We may be paying too much for a brilliantly defensive forward, who on his day is one of the most exciting players to watch in hockey...........but can also be one of the most frustrating. We cannot judge a player properly either who has been threatened by a career ending injury and who because of it missed a great deal of conditioning and match practice,

By all means, as is the won't on here, keep comparing him to perfection, but I would rather compare him to some of our own players who are faring little better and with less of an excuse...........or even one or two other players around.

I have said it before but will repeat it again. You need speed AND defence in the playoffs........as well as points. Mason Raymond has been laying on quite a few chances for other players who are not converting, that is not his fault. He is also very unlucky with his shots/goal percentage, hopefully that may change in the playoffs.

He and Manny deserve a bit more loyalty on here.




Daniel Paille - 27- $1.15


REGULAR SEASON 67 9 6 15 -4 15 0 2 1 84 10.7

Dustin Penner - 29 - $4.25
REGULAR SEASON 67 9 6 15 -4 15 0 2 1 84
10.7


Jarret Stoll - 29 - $3.4
REGULAR SEASON 76 5 14 19 3 58 0 0 0 128 3.9

Daymond Langkow - 35 - $4.5
REGULAR SEASON 76 5 14 19 3 58 0 0 0 128 3.9

Mason Raymond - 26 - $2.6
REGULAR SEASON 54 10 10 20 4 18 1 1 2 125 8.0


Higins? Hansen?

#26 Ghostsof1915

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:42 AM

With Raymond; Gillis will allow him to sit most of the summer and see if anyone offersheets him. If they do at $1,567,044 to $3,134,088 Gillis wil probably take the second rounder. I don't see anyone going over the higher part of this but if they did it would give us a first and a third which would be sick for Raymond.


^^^ This. +1

Getting a 2nd rounder would be a better asset, unless Gillis can work his magic and trade Raymond on draft day for a pick or prospect. Maybe the Leafs will be desperate and pick him up for a 1st and a 3rd. :lol:

Edited by Ghostsof1915, 05 April 2012 - 07:43 AM.

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#27 dorrcoq

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:16 AM

We may be paying too much for a brilliantly defensive forward, who on his day is one of the most exciting players to watch in hockey...........


I guess "His day" hasn't happened yet, because if you think Raymond is or has been remotely close to being "one of the most exciting players to watch" you really need to give your head a shake.

#28 dorrcoq

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:19 AM

no way. you have to look beyond the obvious.
it's a question of desire.

roberto duran was 5 ft 7 inches tall.
raymond has around 4 or 5 inches on that.
duran weighed between 135 and 145 lbs.
again raymond has at least 40 lbs on that.

yet, if you put duran in his prime, in a ring with lucic
most money would go on duran.  why?  willpower.  desire.

and yes lucic has taken boxing lessons.

duran was nicknamed manos del piedra which means hands of stone.
also nicknamed el cholo, the dog.


Idiotic

#29 Zach Morris

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:40 AM

WOW!!!!

He's not living up to "your" standards - Big Whoop!

Yet he continues to get ice time and will no doubt be part of the Playoof Line-up.

He's on our team right now. Cheer for the guy. He's a speedy forward who keeps the Opposing D on their heels. For a 3rd line winger whats wrong with that. Stops the Opposing D from wanting to pinch, and getting into the offensive attack. Just his presence on the ice does this.

I'm a fan of Raymond!!! I don't care what you guys think.

I can't wait until he lights it up this playoffs and you all have to eat some humble pie!! - No Ice Cream for you negative Nancy's either.
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#30 Bodee

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:43 AM

Raymond is shrouded in myth and lies on here, of that there is no doubt.

For a start many on here, who do not see his defensive qualities, make me think they either don't understand the game or their bias has eaten away so much of their judgement that they are incapable of fair assessment.

Others say he doesn't have a role and he doesn't fit. Well if that is the case then AV is not the coach we think he is because he firstly, couldn't wait to rush him back into the team (despite other possibilities ) and secondly, he full fills the role, regularly, of quick outlet and passer far better than say, Booth for example who may I remind you is getting nearly twice as much and while not having the excuse of a broken vertebrae and lack of pre season has posted figures not much better than Raymond. We should also remember Booths inclination to ALWAYS go for the shot when comparing these stats.

For the poster above who does not think he is exciting, I must be hearing things when I note the buzz of expectation from the crowd when he breaks with the puck.

I'm not saying he's perfect, I'm not saying he couldn't be more physical or that another 10lbs of muscle wouldn't do him some good. What I am saying is he brings a lot of qualities to the Canucks which seem to be either not understood by many on here or just don't interest those who are only enamoured with rushes to the net that 95 times out of 100 lead to giving the puck away.

The players I have named above, CDC would no doubt wet their pants if it was announced were coming here. Sturm comes to mind. And yet their salaries combined to performance make them miserable compared to Raymond.

This confirms what I have always suspected and that is that half of CDC have the attention span of a gnat, haven't the patience to analyse or understand the game and are absolutely clueless when it comes to judging a hockey player.

Lastly, I have no axe to grind with Booth. In fact I feel he will be the next victim on here (and I will defend him too) because if he doesn't keep feeding of the mob he will be another Raymond, seen as diminishing these peoples self esteem and bragging rights.
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