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Fox News Host Claims only "Corrupt Scientists" Believe in Climate Change


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#91 Heretic

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

Well I hate to say this but in an Environmental Court, Humanity would be found guilty of destroying the ecosystem and negatively affecting the climate change cycle.


I agree - but it can't be proven (at least I doubt it) that we are the sole cause for climate change.
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#92 Heretic

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

Yup Except Heretic, he doesn't affect the climate he is too busy burying his head in the sand to leave a carbon footprint.


Wow - that was profound. :picard: Not!

Really? Like instead of showing your obvious hatred towards me, maybe you should be objective and actually read what I have said in this thread. :sadno:
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#93 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

I agree - but it can't be proven (at least I doubt it) that we are the sole cause for climate change.


Is being only an accomplice to the destruction of fragile ecosystems somehow more excusable than being the sole perpetrator?
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View PostScott Hartnell, on 11 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.

#94 Heretic

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:10 PM

Is being only an accomplice to the destruction of fragile ecosystems somehow more excusable than being the sole perpetrator?


Nope...not at all...I just don't like people talking in absolutes.
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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#95 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

Nope...not at all...I just don't like people talking in absolutes.


Which is why I said humanity would be found guilty. Even if it's only partially our fault...it is still our fault..Never once did I make the claim that humans are the sole reason for the climate change...but are we at fault? Absolutely we are. Whether it's 0.1% or 99.9999% our fault, we do affect the environment negatively, we do destroy ecosystems and endanger wildlife, and we do owe it to if not ourselves then future generations to try to effect a positive change. The problem as I stated before is no one is listening.

Edited by Scott Hartnell's Mane, 25 January 2013 - 12:16 PM.

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View PostScott Hartnell, on 11 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.

#96 Heretic

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

Which is why I said humanity would be found guilty. Even if it's only partially our fault...it is still our fault..Never once did I make the claim that humans are the sole reason for the climate change...but are we at fault? Absolutely we are. Whether it's 0.1% or 99.9999% our fault, we do affect the environment negatively, we do destroy ecosystems and endanger wildlife, and we do owe it to if not ourselves then future generations to try to effect a positive change. The problem as I stated before is no one is listening.


Exactly.

It's also what Kryten said on the last page - people are arguing about who's fault it is and why isn't the government or someone else doing something about it.

I like what this guy says about our eco systems:

"In spite of these problems, there are a few things that we can do to protect ecosystems. The first step in the solution is to become aware. The second step is analyzing how we can influence the laws governing pollution and ungoverned industrialization. You can make yourself visible to society regarding ecosystems. Small things like, reducing ones litter can also influence the structure. Basically, reduce, recycle and reuse that which we can. Cut down on carbon emissions wherever possible. Basically, learn to think Eco-friendly.
One's carbon footprint is determined by many variables which we tend to overlook. Don’t just plant a tree, read about the ecosystem where you live, what thrives there and how to protect it. Is the plant alien doing more damage to the said ecosystem? We should be considering ourselves as guardians of this unique world we live in and yet we do more damage unconsciously than we realize."

http://www.brighthub...cles/62150.aspx

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McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
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#97 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 12:29 PM

Well I instituted the first recycling program this rural podunk area has ever seen and I ride a bike nearly everywhere I go...I'd say I'm at least doing my part to turn this around.
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View PostScott Hartnell, on 11 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.

#98 MadMonk

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:34 PM

I agree but what is it we really want to prove?


That the current (post 1970) upswing in temperature is largely due to human activity rather than natural variability.

What will you consider as a good enough proof? Beyond reasonable doubt? On balance of probability (more likely than not)?
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#99 J.R.

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

Be the change you wish to see.
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"Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you."
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#100 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

Well I hate to say this but in an Environmental Court, Humanity would be found guilty of destroying the ecosystem and negatively affecting the climate change cycle.


Agreed wholeheartedly. The evidence of mans footprint is pretty deep and there is no refuting the data. It would also appear as if nature is already fighting back? Trying to balance itself out so to speak from the massive regional fluctuation in mean temp. As I dive into MadMonks points the evidence seems to be hitting the mark for me. I am not 100% convinced man is the sole cause but to deny there has been current massive environmental change as a result of man's industries would be ignorance on my part.

Edited by vanfan73, 25 January 2013 - 05:16 PM.

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#101 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:44 PM

What you are describing here is called the ice-albedo feedback.

In climate there are forcings and feedbacks. The former refers to things that are controlled externally to the system: solar is the main one, volcano is another example. Feedback refer to things that can't be controlled externally, and it basically increases or decreases depending on the temperature, and it stays roughly in an equilibrium with the environment: water and ice sheets are feedbacks. CO2 is a special case. In the past it is a feedback, but now as we are injecting it into the atmosphere at a rate much higher then it can equilibrate, so it is a forcing.

It appears my perception of these theories are inverted lol. As I begin to understand "Forcing" more I see that the current environmental changes are actually a direct result of the industry of man. These affects can be traced back with great accuracy. As we can see this in many current regional statistics. The warming trend is very palpable in the polar regions as the obvious result of the ice-albedo feedback.

If you want to get philosophical then sure, I guess Homo sapien are indeed part of nature so you can argue that this is all natural change. But you won't poop around the house just because it is natural, right?

Analogy is a bit of a stretch but i do see the point :lol:

Yes, nature will equilibrate, but the counter intuitive fact is that warming is nature's way to equilibrate.

There must be more data to support the theory on the equilibrium balancing out in it's attempt at cooling itself. The average overall albedo of Earth, its planetary albedo, is 30 to 35%, because of the covering by clouds, but varies widely locally across the surface, depending on the geological and environmental features. I do remember reading somewhere that the amount of S02 in the clouds is the major contributing factor to the reflectivity of the them. Basically causing a cooling of the earth's surface because the cosmic rays/solar rays are not penetrating the clouds as in the past. This though may only be a major factor when we are actually in the ice-house affect.

This wiki quote has me really scratching my melon though.

"Over the geological History of the Earth the planet's climate has been fluctuating between two dominant states: the Greenhouse and the Icehouse. These two climate sets generally last for long periods of time (many millions of years) and should not be confused with Ice ages or Glacial and Interglacial periods (which only occur during an Icehouse period and tend to last less than 1 million years). The Earth's climate is on a continuing, uneven cycle between the two states, the main factors involved in these changes in paleoclimate are believed to be the concentration of atmospheric carbon dioxide, changes in the Earth's orbit, and oceanic and orogenic changes due to tectonic plate dynamics. Greenhouse and Icehouse periods have profoundly shaped the evolution of life on Earth."

It seems there is so much that can affect the earth's climate...... but man has been doing a great job at adding variables previously unseen/undetected.



Edited by vanfan73, 25 January 2013 - 05:49 PM.

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#102 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:54 PM

Is being only an accomplice to the destruction of fragile ecosystems somehow more excusable than being the sole perpetrator?


Excellent point !
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#103 Newsflash

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:26 PM

Whenever there's a thread on climate change, I scan for any Mad Monk posts. They make the thread worthwhile.

I swear to god he has a PHD on this or something.
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Buddy I called this EXACT situtation on here two years ago and was flamed, so I guess I have a bit of hockey knowledge, not to mention the 4 years I played in the OHL idiot.


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#104 Amish Rake Fighter

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:59 PM

It is irrelevant because it is illogical.


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Hey Monk, have you ever checked out a site called "Watts Up With That" ?
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#105 MadMonk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

There must be more data to support the theory on the equilibrium balancing out in it's attempt at cooling itself. The average overall albedo of Earth, its planetary albedo, is 30 to 35%, because of the covering by clouds, but varies widely locally across the surface, depending on the geological and environmental features. I do remember reading somewhere that the amount of S02 in the clouds is the major contributing factor to the reflectivity of the them. Basically causing a cooling of the earth's surface because the cosmic rays/solar rays are not penetrating the clouds as in the past. This though may only be a major factor when we are actually in the ice-house affect.


Indeed sulphur aerosol cause a significant cooling effect. To form clouds you'll need very small droplet/particles called cloud condensation nuclei (CCN). Basically more SOs => more CCN => more and smaller cloud droplets => increase refection.

In fact human emits a fair amount of SO2 through coal burning etc, and the net anthropogenic affect to the climate is in fact damped out by aerosols (i.e greenhouse gas (GHG) forcing is masked by aerosol), and thus the warming is lower than compared to what would've been otherwise.

As SO2 is very bad for air quality, and sooner or later countries such as China and India will have to tighten up the emissions eventually for health reasons. The problem is that SO2 washes out of the air very quickly, and thus the masking effect will quickly decrease, and the warming effect of the GHG will suddenly become much larger.

Since you are very interested in paleoclimate, I think you will find the following lecture by Dr. Richard Alley interesting. It is an hour long but it is very informative. It is basically a overview of earth's past climate history, and why evidence from the past 100million+ years all suggest that CO2 has a very large effect on global temperature.

http://www.agu.org/m...deos/A23A.shtml

For people who want a shorter version, here's a written summary.

Edited by MadMonk, 26 January 2013 - 11:01 AM.

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#106 MadMonk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:05 AM

I swear to god he has a PHD on this or something.


working on one (in a closely related field) so hopefully in a couple of years!
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#107 WiDeN

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

MadMonk, thank you for bringing information to a thread full of speculation.
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V a n c o u v e r C a n u c k s

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#108 MadMonk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

Hey Monk, have you ever checked out a site called "Watts Up With That" ?


Occasionally. Gives me a headache every time.
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#109 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:22 AM

MadMonk, thank you for bringing information to a thread full of speculation.


I second this. It has given me a lot more ammunition when dealing with people in my immediate area here in NC who haven't got a clue about climate change or what causes it. Thanks MadMonk, I'm grateful to you for your insight and information.
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View PostScott Hartnell, on 11 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.

#110 MadMonk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

My feeling is that

MadMonk, thank you for bringing information to a thread full of speculation.


It is a way for me to put off my own studies without feeling guilty :P

But in seriousness, I think scientists can do all the research they want, but it is useless if the information doesn't go out to the public. In particular if the fundamental knowledge doesn't get out, it is very easy for people with a vested interest (not just financially but also people who oppose government regulations) to selectively present "facts" to exaggerate uncertainty in the science.

Edited by MadMonk, 26 January 2013 - 12:09 PM.

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#111 MadMonk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

I second this. It has given me a lot more ammunition when dealing with people in my immediate area here in NC who haven't got a clue about climate change or what causes it. Thanks MadMonk, I'm grateful to you for your insight and information.


There are two sites (if you haven't come across them already) that I found really useful:


Skeptical science: a site that compiles a list of common misconceptions about climate, and summarizes the science that explains why those misconceptions are wrong.

http://www.skeptical...om/argument.php

The Discovery of Global Warming: it is an online book detailing the history of climate science. A lot of people don't realize that climate science, particularly greenhouse gas theory, have withstood a century of scrutiny.

http://www.aip.org/h...imate/index.htm
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#112 canucks#01fan

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:48 PM

Our whole solar system is going through climate change, not just earth

Its a cycle
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#113 MadMonk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

Our whole solar system is going through climate change, not just earth

Its a cycle


(1) Climate doesn't magically change. There is always a factor external to the climate system that forces it. Examples are changes in the sun, changes in the planet's orbit, changes in atmospheric composition etc.

(2) Suppose "climate is changing through out solar system" is true (we'll come to that), it only has bearing on earth's climate if the sun changes. Fact is the sun has not changed in a meaningful way for the past few decades. This suggests that even if climate is changing everywhere, the causes are different

(3) "Climate is changing through out solar system" is a dubious statement.

(i) Claims that mars is warming is NOT (AFAIK) based on instrument, but images showing that ice caps shrunk. You can't even rule out a regional change, so claiming that Mars is warming questionable.

(ii) Claims of pluto warming is even more dubious. Pluto's orbit is 246 years long. Since it's discovery in 1930, pluto has made 1/3 of its orbit, so we can't be sure that it is not simply an effect of the orbit, i.e. a seasonal change. To put this into perspective, claiming that pluto's climate is changing is like claiming climate change on earth because May is warmer than January.

More interestingly, pluto is warming despite its distance to the sun is increasing (which normally entails cooling), and one explanation for that is the greenhouse gas effect due to methane ;).

Summary: as the only climate driver (the sun) that is common to all planets has not undergone changes recently, even if other planets are undergoing climate changes, they will very likely be for different reasons.
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#114 Newsflash

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

working on one (in a closely related field) so hopefully in a couple of years!


That explains the ass kicking you deal out in every thread about climate change.

When you look at some of the other threads on here about gay marriage, economics, etc., they usually have to be locked to stop the bickering. The climate change threads usually only go as far as you let them. It's pretty funny seeing some of the climate change deniers not enter this thread again.

Even Wetcoaster, with his years working as a lawyer, can't shut people up like you do. It's glorious.

Most underrated poster on this site IMO.
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Buddy I called this EXACT situtation on here two years ago and was flamed, so I guess I have a bit of hockey knowledge, not to mention the 4 years I played in the OHL idiot.


The conspiracy theories that used to be against Lateralus:
Puberty, life, movie theaters, movie theaters that frown upon you pulling it out, movie theaters that frown upon you pulling it out during a children's movie, Toy Story 3, Pixar, who ever decided to make Woody so damn attractive, a job, his mothers basement, being 40, being 40 five years ago, dogs who can out run him, all dogs, the Olympic committee, Truth, Fact, Honesty, Logic, Newsflash, a father figure who was there to see him learn to ride his first bike, bikes,

#115 Mr.DirtyDangles

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

That explains the ass kicking you deal out in every thread about climate change.

When you look at some of the other threads on here about gay marriage, economics, etc., they usually have to be locked to stop the bickering. The climate change threads usually only go as far as you let them. It's pretty funny seeing some of the climate change deniers not enter this thread again.

Even Wetcoaster, with his years working as a lawyer, can't shut people up like you do. It's glorious.

Most underrated poster on this site IMO.


I think what Monk is trying to do is enlighten. He does a good job of it , because he is simply trying to educate, not to shut people up. Big difference.
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#116 NuckNuckNucks

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:39 AM

Global Warming is fake. It's all about funding.

Educate yourself before you cut and paste something you don't understand.
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You have to be a true bandwagoneer if you buy Mike's line about looking for the right deal to trade Luongo.

True fans and hockey diehards know, that is double talk for, "Luongo is a high ticket commodity now or next year, we'll keep him around just in case Schneider turns out to be a lemon and chokes games."

And choke he will.

I know this. I'm never wrong.

#117 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:07 AM

Global Warming is fake. It's all about funding.

Educate yourself before you cut and paste something you don't understand.


This is the stupidest thing I have ever read about this issue in 30 years on this planet. The nonsense kool-aid is very strong with this one. You do Tolkien a great disservice sporting that avatar and spouting this crap. I realize you're a little upset about the sheer stupidity of your Fox News heroes but you seriously need to get over it. What was the moon landing fake too?

Edited by Scott Hartnell's Mane, 28 January 2013 - 08:15 AM.

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View PostScott Hartnell, on 11 June 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.

#118 Aleksandr Pistoletov

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

Global Warming is fake. It's all about funding.

Educate yourself before you cut and paste something you don't understand.

Not fake.. climatology is still a relatively new science so models aren't accurate enough nor is enough understood to make any significant changes that would in all likelihood adversely affect an economy. Problem is, green nuts are getting in the way of climate advances (which is a problem with other sciences as well when these people get their slimy politics in the way) trying to end debate by injecting their politically contrived agenda into what should be politically neutral advancement. "Shutting people up" as put by another poster on this page somewhere, is just one example of many.

Edited by zaibatsu, 28 January 2013 - 08:59 AM.

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#119 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:57 AM

This is the stupidest thing I have ever read about this issue in 30 years on this planet. The nonsense kool-aid is very strong with this one. You do Tolkien a great disservice sporting that avatar and spouting this crap. I realize you're a little upset about the sheer stupidity of your Fox News heroes but you seriously need to get over it. What was the moon landing fake too?


Oh flying spaghetti monster, SHM, it's baaaaack and trolling hard.

I couldn't agree with you more.......there's not a whole lot of reality included in the post you're responding to. And 'Fox News' says it all, and that's all that needs to be said.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 28 January 2013 - 09:00 AM.

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#120 Heretic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:29 AM

Read about this on the weekend - that bees are dying...and in China they are pollinating by hand... pollution is one of the suspects...



The report lists a number of factors which may be coming together to cause the decline and they include:

* Habitat degradation, including the loss of flowering plant species that provide food for bees;

* Some insecticides, including the so-called "systemic" insecticides which can migrate to the entire plant as it grows and be taken in by bees in nectar and pollen;

* Parasites and pests, such as the well-known Varroa mite;

* Air pollution, which may be interfering with the ability of bees to find flowering plants and thus food – scents that could travel more than 800 metres in the 1800s now reach less than 200 metres from a plant.


http://www.independe...ns-2237541.html


"However, bee diversity has declined markedly in Europe, with many species disappearing from much of their former range, and some species going extinct. The UK alone has lost three species of native bumblebee, and six more are listed as endangered. Four bumblebee species have gone extinct from the whole of Europe, and there is good evidence for similar declines in North America and China.

Pollinating animals fly in to our fields to pollinate crops from surrounding wild areas, but if there are no wild areas, or if the crops are doused in insecticides, then pollination will suffer and yields will decline.

China’s hand-pollinated orchards

Evidence from around the world points to falling and increasingly unpredictable yields of insect-pollinated crops, particularly in the areas with the most intensive farming. Where crops are grown in vast fields, there are not enough insects to go around. If insecticides are sprayed too frequently, then vital pollinators cannot survive.

The most dramatic example comes from the apple and pear orchards of south west China, where wild bees have been eradicated by excessive pesticide use and a lack of natural habitat. "

http://www.chinadial.../single/en/5193
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