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My Logical Theory on the Future of Our Goaltending


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#61 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:02 PM

Got those handy?


2010-11 Playoffs
Luongo's GAA was 2.56 (10th), Save% was .914 (9th)

2009-10 Playoffs
3.22 GAA (15th), .895 Save% (14th)

2008-09 Playoffs
2.52 GAA (6th), .914 Save% (9th)


Considering there's only 16 teams in the playoffs, these stats are below average.
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#62 Heretic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:08 PM

2010-11 Playoffs
Luongo's GAA was 2.56 (10th), Save% was .914 (9th)

2009-10 Playoffs
3.22 GAA (15th), .895 Save% (14th)

2008-09 Playoffs
2.52 GAA (6th), .914 Save% (9th)


Considering there's only 16 teams in the playoffs, these stats are below average.


Uhhh....he was 12th out of 25 (Schneider 14th) in 2011 with only .45 between him and 5th...

Player Team Season GP W L OT SA GA GAA Saves Sv% SO TOI
1 Anders Lindback NSH 2010-2011 1 0 0 0 9 0 0 9 1 0 13:14
2 Antero Niittymaki SJS 2010-2011 2 1 0 0 30 1 0.66 29 0.967 0 91:29:00
3 Mike Smith TBL 2010-2011 3 1 1 0 48 2 1 46 0.958 0 120:09:00
4 Tim Thomas BOS 2010-2011 25 16 9 0 849 51 1.98 798 0.94 4 1,541:53
5 Carey Price MTL 2010-2011 7 3 4 0 242 16 2.11 226 0.934 1 455:29:00
6 Corey Crawford CHI 2010-2011 7 3 4 0 218 16 2.21 202 0.927 1 435:12:00
7 Henrik Lundqvist NYR 2010-2011 5 1 4 0 156 13 2.25 143 0.917 0 345:35:00
8 Michal Neuvirth WSH 2010-2011 9 4 5 0 261 23 2.34 238 0.912 1 589:56:00
9 Jimmy Howard DET 2010-2011 11 7 4 0 364 28 2.5 336 0.923 0 673:22:00
10 Dwayne Roloson TBL 2010-2011 17 10 6 0 541 41 2.51 500 0.924 1 981:49:00
11 Marc-Andre Fleury PIT 2010-2011 7 3 4 0 168 17 2.52 151 0.899 1 405:12:00
12 Roberto Luongo VAN 2010-2011 25 15 10 0 711 61 2.56 650 0.914 4 1,427:10
13 Pekka Rinne NSH 2010-2011 12 6 6 0 343 32 2.57 311 0.907 0 748:28:00
14 Cory Schneider VAN 2010-2011 5 0 0 0 82 7 2.58 75 0.915 0 162:39:00
15 Ryan Miller BUF 2010-2011 7 3 4 0 242 20 2.93 222 0.917 2 409:42:00
16 Brian Boucher PHI 2010-2011 9 4 4 0 229 22 3.13 207 0.904 0 422:22:00
17 Jonathan Quick LAK 2010-2011 6 2 4 0 229 20 3.16 209 0.913 1 380:15:00
18 Ray Emery ANA 2010-2011 6 2 3 0 165 17 3.2 148 0.897 0 319:20:00
19 Antti Niemi SJS 2010-2011 18 8 9 0 538 56 3.22 482 0.896 0 1,044:06
20 Sergei Bobrovsky PHI 2010-2011 6 0 2 0 81 10 3.23 71 0.877 0 185:37:00
21 Michael Leighton PHI 2010-2011 2 0 1 0 29 4 3.43 25 0.862 0 69:43:00
22 Jhonas Enroth BUF 2010-2011 1 0 0 0 8 1 3.53 7 0.875 0 17:11
23 Ilya Bryzgalov PHX 2010-2011 4 0 4 0 140 17 4.36 123 0.879 0 233:43:00
24 Dan Ellis ANA 2010-2011 1 0 1 0 24 4 5.85 20 0.833 0 40:56:00
25 Brent Johnson PIT 2010-2011 1 0 0 0 11 4 7.06 7 0.636 0 34:29:00

Edit: Still so so in copy/paste...

http://www.nhl.com/i...leSeasonGoalies

Edited by Heretic, 28 January 2013 - 04:11 PM.

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#63 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:14 PM

Uhhh....he was 12th out of 25 (Schneider 14th) in 2011 with only .45 between him and 5th...


I didn't count the two goalies who hadn't started at least 2 games.

And "only .45"? A half-goal difference in GAA is huge! And that only gets him to 5th?!?

Edited by D-Money, 28 January 2013 - 04:42 PM.

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#64 Heretic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:15 PM

I didn't count the two goalies who hadn't started at least 2 games.

And "only .45"? A half-goal difference in GAA is huge!


Interesting, the year the Hawks won, Niemi's had a "below average" GAA of 2.63.

Penguins, Fleury had 2.61 the year they won.

Edited by Heretic, 28 January 2013 - 04:17 PM.

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#65 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

Interesting, the year the Hawks won, Niemi's had a "below average" GAA of 2.63.


Yes - with Campbell on their 2nd pairing and Versteeg and Ladd on their 3rd line.

Even then, they may not have won if Leighton/Boucher had kept up their insane goaltending from earlier in the playoffs. But they came back down to earth HARD, and completely crapped the bed in the finals.
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#66 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:22 PM

Penguins, Fleury had 2.61 the year they won.


Another insanely deep team with superstars on ELC's...

Here's an interesting thought: If Cory Schneider was on Pittsburgh right now, who would they trade? Fleury, or Schneider?

Edited by D-Money, 28 January 2013 - 04:22 PM.

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#67 Heretic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:26 PM

Yes - with Campbell on their 2nd pairing and Versteeg and Ladd on their 3rd line.

Even then, they may not have won if Leighton/Boucher had kept up their insane goaltending from earlier in the playoffs. But they came back down to earth HARD, and completely crapped the bed in the finals.


So...you're agreeing then? That the Canucks issue isn't goal tending, that it's the supporting cast that makes a difference?
Else why would you mention Campbell, Versteeg and Ladd?

Don't get me wrong - I expected more then what Luongo delivered and my expectations are just as high (if not higher) for Schneider (as he is displacing Luongo so he better earn it). I just don't see how we could have won the last 2 playoff series with any goalie.
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#68 derr12

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

I disagree. Schneider is the now, and Schneider is the future. Better technically, and the team seems more confident when he's in net. Trade Luongo for a top 6 center(if we can somehow) or more realistically for some size/grit/toughness for our bottom 6.


At this point im not really sure who's better. He's better positionally by a hair (lluongo's been real good in that dept since 2008/2009 offseason) Lluongo IMO has the faster glove but often gets had in breakaway/shootout situations because he moves first. Schneiders stickwork leaves a lot to be desired where as lluongo's is at least average if not better.

As for confidence, it could be argued that the big body kassian has more to do with confidence as a whole. Team has been playing crap defence since late january last year. Doesnt matter who's in net, The real problem is in defencemen coaching. schneider get's undressed just as bad as lou when you give up a bjaillion 2 on 1's because of ill-advised pinching and turnovers. Both goalies have endured serious adversity due to this problem and IMO did better then they should have.

FFS imagine where we would be right now if we had bryz from philly in net. 3/4 of the canuck nation would immigrate to Oilerville. Id say good riddens to the lot of you too.

Edited by derr12, 28 January 2013 - 04:32 PM.

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#69 D-Money

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

So...you're agreeing then?  That the Canucks issue isn't goal tending, that it's the supporting cast that makes a difference?
Else why would you mention Campbell, Versteeg and Ladd?

Don't get me wrong - I expected more then what Luongo delivered and my expectations are just as high (if not higher) for Schneider (as he is displacing Luongo so he better earn it).  I just don't see how we could have won the last 2 playoff series with any goalie.


This goes back to what I said earlier about the irony of Luongo supporters, who say the problem is the rest of the team.

The only way to build a team FULL of young superstars, like the 2008-09 Penguins or 2009-10 Blackhawks, is to do a complete rebuild, and tank HARD. Multiple years of bottom-feeding and top-5 picks. And even then, you have to have a little luck (Pittsburgh winning Crosby lottery, Chicago having depth picks like Keith and Buffy pan out so well). It doesn't always work (just ask Columbus and Florida). If there's any chance of Vancouver doing this in the near future, then the answer is still to trade Luongo - perhaps even trade Luongo AND Schneider.

But of course, that is not going to happen. So we're forced to make a run with a more veteran-laden team, like Boston, Detroit, and Carolina (to an extent) did. What was the constant factor in their cup wins? They got the best goaltending.

The only way to overcome average goaltending to win the cup seems to be having MULTIPLE star players, which is only possible if many are on cheap contracts (most often ELC's). If you don't have that, but are stuck with a team balanced by cap restrictions, you need the best goaltending you can get.
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#70 Heretic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

At this point im not really sure who's better. He's better positionally by a hair (lluongo's been real good in that dept since 2008/2009 offseason) Lluongo IMO has the faster glove but often gets had in breakaway/shootout situations because he moves first. Schneiders stickwork leaves a lot to be desired where as lluongo's is at least average if not better.

As for confidence, it could be argued that the big body kassian has more to do with confidence as a whole. Team has been playing crap defence since late january last year. Doesnt matter who's in net, The real problem is in defencemen coaching. schneider get's undressed just as bad as lou when you give up a bjaillion 2 on 1's because of ill-advised pinching and turnovers. Both goalies have endured serious adversity due to this problem and IMO did better then they should have.

FFS imagine where we would be right now if we had bryz from philly in net. 3/4 of the canuck nation would immigrate to Oilerville. Id say good riddens to the lot of you too.


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#71 Heretic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

This goes back to what I said earlier about the irony of Luongo supporters, who say the problem is the rest of the team.

The only way to build a team FULL of young superstars, like the 2008-09 Penguins or 2009-10 Blackhawks, is to do a complete rebuild, and tank HARD. Multiple years of bottom-feeding and top-5 picks. And even then, you have to have a little luck (Pittsburgh winning Crosby lottery, Chicago having depth picks like Keith and Buffy pan out so well). It doesn't always work (just ask Columbus and Florida). If there's any chance of Vancouver doing this in the near future, then the answer is still to trade Luongo - perhaps even trade Luongo AND Schneider.

But of course, that is not going to happen. So we're forced to make a run with a more veteran-laden team, like Boston, Detroit, and Carolina (to an extent) did. What was the constant factor in their cup wins? They got the best goaltending.

The only way to overcome average goaltending to win the cup seems to be having MULTIPLE star players, which is only possible if many are on cheap contracts (most often ELC's). If you don't have that, but are stuck with a team balanced by cap restrictions, you need the best goaltending you can get.


Well - if you could read my blog how I said " Luongo needs to put up or get out" you would see that I'm not a "Luongo Supporter" in the traditional sense. I like him, I just think his time as a Canuck is over and he has been treated poorly by us fans and the team.
I also don't feel that Schneider is going to get us a cup unless this team changes (whether the existing players improve or new ones come in). Schneider proved that last year when even though he played great - we still lost to the Kings. Just like when Luongo played great - we still didn't win the cup.
What I don't like is people blaming one guy (yes, I was ticked with Luongo when we lost game 3 against Boston) but looking back, the stats don't lie. 8 goals in 7 games is pathetic.
For me...with this being my 37th season cheering for the Canucks, anything less than a Stanley Cup is a bust.
That may sound unreasonable...but that's how I feel.
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#72 Watermelons

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

My point is that we have a lot of good players signed but unfortunately we can't keep them all.. the new CBA has changed things, and a luongo trade is unfortunately the best solution since his cap @6.7 mill next year is our biggest and we have Schneids and lack combined for cheaper.


For the 1000th time, Luongo's cap hit is $5.3 million for the rest of his contract. He is being PAID $6.7 million but his cap hit is much lower than that.
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#73 Heretic

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:29 PM

Canucks 16th in Cullen's TSN Power Rankings - that's got to be the lowest in years...interesting stat now that Schneider is the starter?

Edited by Heretic, 28 January 2013 - 05:29 PM.

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#74 TheCammer

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

For the 1000th time, Luongo's cap hit is $5.3 million for the rest of his contract. He is being PAID $6.7 million but his cap hit is much lower than that.

Why would anything change? We had morons talking about his 10 million and 8 million dollar years. The facts are at $5.3 Million he's a bargain as far as elite goalies goes. Well at least until last Spring when Alain mucked up the works.
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#75 Watermelons

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

Why would anything change? We had morons talking about his 10 million and 8 million dollar years. The facts are at $5.3 Million he's a bargain as far as elite goalies goes. Well at least until last Spring when Alain mucked up the works.


Yeah. I mean, I know that it is nice that Canucks fans want Aquillini to save money but it really doesn't matter too much to us. I never understood why people complained about Luongo earning $10 million dollars. They weren't the ones who were paying him and Luongo earning $10 million is definitely not as ridiculous as some of the front-loaded contracts we have seen these couple years.
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#76 Bossy

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:38 PM

Get ???? real, there is NO CHANCE AT ALL this team trades Schneider and keeps Luongo. It's not even an argument any more to management and it is obvious. They are shopping one guy around and not even entertaining deals for the other.
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#77 Pineapples

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:40 AM

Canucks scored 2 goals in the first two games against the Kings. That was enough to win games 3-5, with the goaltending Schneider was giving us. To win a series against a hot team with an elite goaltender, you need that kind of goaltending.

2 goals a game is not enough to win a series. Even if it somehow does, it's still a terrible strategy going in.

And we certainly didn't have trouble scoring goals in the 3 series we played against the Chicago Blackhawks. But I don't have to re-hash how those series turned out. Speaking of the Hawks, they are now 6-0, and very much looking to be a contender in the West. If we face them in the playoffs, which goaltender would you feel more comfortable having in net?

like I said, our offence has been fine until the sj series was over. And if we played Chicago, at this point, I'd be more comfortable with Lu in net. He's shown he can bail this team out when the offence disappears in the biggest game we've ever played against the Hawks.


It doesn't matter how good a goalie plays in 3/7 games in a series, if he doesn't even give you A CHANCE to win the 4th game.

This is just ridiculous. Did you even watch game 7? Don't use Lu as a scapegoat for that game.


There's a reason why Schneider will get a better return. Everyone knows that, right now, he's a better goalie, not to mention cheaper, and with his whole career ahead of him. His stats last year put Luongo's to shame. They weren't even CLOSE!

Age and potential are the only reasons. He has yet to prove that he is the better goalie. That last statement really shows that you eat up everything the media feeds you. Cory put Luongo to shame?? Words cannot describe... :picard:


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#78 Baggins

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:26 AM

Yeah because his 29 games last season really proved he's better than a 2 time gold medal winner, 3 time Vezina nominee, Stanley Cup Finalist, Jennings winner, and someone who is on par with Roy's all-time stats, right?


Just how many games are required before deciding a player is ready to be the starter?
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#79 Riviera82

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:08 AM

Interesting post. I've been thinking lately about the top 5 goalies in the league and the top 3 are a slam dunk: Lundqvist, Quick and Rinne. Then I try to figure out who rounds out the top 5 by thinking about what other goalies have been the best and most consistent and I can't help but come back to Luongo. His stats the last 4 seasons:

2008/2009: 33-13-7, 2.34 GAA, .920 Save%, 9 shutouts

2009/2010: 40-22-4, 2.57 GAA, .913 Save%, 4 shutouts

2010/2011: 38-15-7, 2.11 GAA, .928 Save%, 4 shutouts (VEZINA NOMINATION)

2011/2012: 31-14-8, 2.41 GAA, .919 Save%, 5 shutouts

What's my point? It's easy to forget while he's riding the pine that Luongo is still probably among the best goalies in the league. Other than the big 3 of Lundqvist, Rinne and Quick, what goalie has really been better than him during the last 3 or 4 seasons? I definitely think this team should be going with the younger goalie but I also make sure to give credit where credit is due and that is to Luongo for being one of the best goalies in the league, but just caught in an unfortunate, awkward situation. If the Canucks didn't have Cory Schneider, or even if they did but Schneider wasn't simply as good as he is, none of us would be having this discussion.


Nobody can seriously argue about Luongo's regular season stats, they are top flight for the most part. It's in the playoffs where he goes off the rails.
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#80 Bananas

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:14 AM

The whole team falls off a cliff in the Play-offs. You can blame the whole team, or you can blame one guy. A lot of people blame Luongo, and rightfully so. The rest blame AV. And boy is that blame well placed.
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#81 Primus099

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:21 AM

Nobody can seriously argue about Luongo's regular season stats, they are top flight for the most part. It's in the playoffs where he goes off the rails.


so does everyone playing in front of him
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#82 Primus099

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:31 AM

Also, you said "his last 5 years"...not true. You're forgetting the 2007-08 season, where Luongo completely crapped the bed in the stretch-drive, being the major cause of us missing the playoffs entirely.


we were 24th in goals for that year, but I guess that was Luongo's fault too right? And before you try and bring up goals against? we were 7th. Luongo was hardly the biggest reason we didn't make the playoffs that year.
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#83 Pears

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:31 AM

100% agreed except for the bolded part.

SV% .897
GAA 3.13

It's unfortunate and this happens all too often, goalies looking for starting position playing lights out because they have something to prove, said goalie finally getting his starting contract and no longer has to prove anything and no longer playing lights out hockey.

You want to argue about sample sizes, yet most of you are saying Schnieder is a proven playoff performer based on a 5 game series that he couldn't win.
Keeping Schnieder is not going to go aswell as alot of you think IMO.

Stats 6 games into a season (albeit shortened), means nothing. If Schneider continues to put up a goals against of north of 3.00 AAV then you have a point but if you're saying 'Keeping Schneider is not going to as well as alot of you think', based of off 4 games as a starter is absurd.

Edited by Steven Stamkos' Mullet, 29 January 2013 - 04:31 AM.

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#84 kilgore

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:10 AM

OMG, I can't believe some still would prefer to trade Schneider and keep Luongo!

Can you IMAGINE the despair in this town when we watch Cory go on to anchor a competitor for years to come, maybe even into the playoffs, and we go on to yet another playoffs (if we make it) where for now the 5th year in a row, Lu has his usual melt down, and now we don't even have Schneids sitting on the bench. How humiliating would it be to Lu to be benched for Eddie Lack. He'd probably pull a Roy by then and we'd end up with neither goalie....or any chance at a cup any time soon. That would probably be the end of Gillis for that move.

Like I heard some pundit say, Green Bay Packers had to finally let Favre go in order for Rogers to step up and claim the spot. I think it has to weigh on Cory's mind even if he won't admit it. The sooner MG finds a deal for Luongo the better off the whole team is. The sigh of relief will run from Schneider all the way through the team, and everyone will play better.
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#85 Primus099

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:22 AM

No matter which goalie we trade they'll go win the cup with another team, this is the Canucks we're talking about. Every decision we make ends up being the wrong one lol
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#86 Baggins

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:09 AM

Well - if you could read my blog how I said " Luongo needs to put up or get out" you would see that I'm not a "Luongo Supporter" in the traditional sense. I like him, I just think his time as a Canuck is over and he has been treated poorly by us fans and the team.
I also don't feel that Schneider is going to get us a cup unless this team changes (whether the existing players improve or new ones come in). Schneider proved that last year when even though he played great - we still lost to the Kings. Just like when Luongo played great - we still didn't win the cup.
What I don't like is people blaming one guy (yes, I was ticked with Luongo when we lost game 3 against Boston) but looking back, the stats don't lie. 8 goals in 7 games is pathetic.
For me...with this being my 37th season cheering for the Canucks, anything less than a Stanley Cup is a bust.
That may sound unreasonable...but that's how I feel.


It's true that 8 goals in 7 games is pathetic. BUT, when your team is as banged up as ours was, and the other goalie is playing lights out, your goalie has to keep you in the game. Lou didn't keep us in the game in those losses. You can't give a big 120% push in the finals two minutes if you're down four or more goals. If you're down one you can give that push. Lou was our only chance of winning against Boston and he was bipolar. He either gave us the chance or he gave us no chance.

I blame injuries for losing the cup to Boston more than anything. But during that series, I said Lou was our only chance to win. He put in 3 Vezina performances and 4 garbage performances. Boston on the other hand couldn't fault their goalie for any of their losses. He kept them in every game. Therein lies the difference, giving your team the chance to pull out the win.
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#87 Ghostdivision

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:57 AM

I believe the decision's already been made, but it's just a matter of the right deal coming along. The writing's on the wall and this is Schneid's team from what I can gather. I'm ok with that - I'm not ok with the fans deciding on a game by game basis. Goaltenders will be have good & bad games, you don't trade or raise the cup each win/loss.



Could we please sticky this to the top of the forum!!
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#88 Standing_Tall#37

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:41 AM

Lol everyone has missed the point. It don't matter what we want or what might be the right choice. Luongo said in an offseason interview that he does not want to be here beyond this season!!!! When that's said publically it's not good. Is that the goalie we want on this team for the next 8 seasons? Someone who doesn't want to be here?
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#89 StopesisCanucks

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:55 AM

Schneider played so well in 70 career games because he was playing behind an all star goalie bobby Lou, and X2 president trophy winning team.
This whole topic about the goalies makes sick... We toss Lou to the curb, put all our hopes in schneider don't worry schneider you will be thrown under the bus too.
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#90 D-Money

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:39 AM

like I said, our offence has been fine until the sj series was over. And if we played Chicago, at this point, I'd be more comfortable with Lu in net. He's shown he can bail this team out when the offence disappears in the biggest game we've ever played against the Hawks.


Really? Luongo crapped the bed the first two series against Chicago, and in the 3rd one, we had to start Schneider for a game just so he could get his head straight...and you'd be comfortable with Lu? I sure wouldn't.

If we face Hawks (or Bruins) again, and Lu is our guy (completely hypothetical, because he will not be), he'd be the focus of all the media. And, he'd probably play great for a game or two. But as soon as he lets in a bad goal, the floodgates would open. It's in his head at this point.


This is just ridiculous. Did you even watch game 7? Don't use Lu as a scapegoat for that game.


I wasn't simply talking about game 7. With the kind of goaltending Boston was getting (consistently elite), the only way we could win a 4th game was if Luongo could hold Boston to 2-3 goals tops. But he couldn't do it in game 3, game 4, game 6, or game 7. The last one he wasn't completely terrible...but he certainly was in the other 3. We simply didn't have a chance to win a 4th game with that goaltending.


Age and potential are the only reasons. He has yet to prove that he is the better goalie. That last statement really shows that you eat up everything the media feeds you. Cory put Luongo to shame?? Words cannot describe...



Regular Season
1) 1.96 GAA (3rd in league); .937 Save% (2nd)
2) 2.41 GAA (17th); .919 Save% (14th)

Playoffs
1) 1.31 GAA (1st); .960 Save% (1st)
2) 3.59 GAA (18th - out of 19); .891 Save% (16th)

One of these sets of stats belongs to a franchise veteran goaltender, with a huge contract. The other belongs to a young, sophomore "back-up". One of the sets of stats represent truly elite goaltending, the other simply average (even below) for an NHL starter. But they do not belong to who someone might think they do - or should. They show a WIDE discrepancy.

So yes, Cory's stats last year clearly put Luongo's to shame. Your reaction to that statement shows that your stand is not based on fact and reason, but rather, emotion and sentimentality (which are often hard to put into words, as they are not necessarily connected to reality).

Edited by D-Money, 29 January 2013 - 09:56 AM.

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