***The UFC/MMA THREAD***

[Harbinger]

The weight classes were there but the fighters were all over the place like Sakuraba, Minowa, Wanderlei, Ninja Rua. I like the ground war a lot something pride kind of lacked. UFC will let the guys up if it gets too boring. If you see the early prides like Mark Kerr it became too rediculous when his opponents got scared of him and would intentionally fall through the ropes so they could get back in and get position.

I liked the face to face stare downs in pride though. Those were intense.

But if you dont care for ground wars that much then you should watch K-1. Pure punching and kicking. More stand up action.

Same with affliction. Too many fights were ruins with the constant restarts because they were falling off the edge, and guys constantly falling out of the ring through the ropes.

Yeah I have seen a lot of K-1's aswell as I think all the K-1 Heroes which were K-1 and Pride holding shows together. And the K-1 legends shows were good aswell.

I prefer a restart than having someone pushed into the cage. Why don't they just give one guy a bat while they are at it. The Cage is used as a weapon. The only weapons that should be allowed is your own Body. If your strategy is to push a guy into the fence tells me your ability is not how well you fight. That is why Wrestlers rarely stood a chance in Pride. They were conditioned to not win the fight but rather to draw it out.

[Raoul Duke]

Bats, eh?? Hmmmm... like the Baseball Furies??

[Panda]

Rather than elaborate openings and entrances that mirror pro-wrestling (this is why Dana is keeping away from ridiculous entrances, mark my words) I'd rather see the UFC spend some money on a real talented video producer. The guys who work in video production for the WWE are some of the best in the business with regards to making exciting videos to hype up matches/events and show opening graphics/credits. Rather than a stupid opening with a lame song featuring some random dude dressed as a faggy gladiator, they should get an industry professional, someone experienced in post production for sports, and create an entirely new image with their broadcasts. It would go a long way as far as enjoying the show goes.

[Pfizer]

Yeah I have seen a lot of K-1's aswell as I think all the K-1 Heroes which were K-1 and Pride holding shows together. And the K-1 legends shows were good aswell.

I prefer a restart than having someone pushed into the cage. Why don't they just give one guy a bat while they are at it. The Cage is used as a weapon. The only weapons that should be allowed is your own Body. If your strategy is to push a guy into the fence tells me your ability is not how well you fight. That is why Wrestlers rarely stood a chance in Pride. They were conditioned to not win the fight but rather to draw it out.

I think its great. I like that the cage allows a fight to keep going like a real fight. Its much more safer too. Its the same reason Mirko Cro Cop lost in the UFC. You had lay n pray in pride as well though. Gracie vs Sakuraba was a 1 1/2 hour fight!

but i think UFC has changed now where if you were on the ground and not doing enough they will stand you back up. I think its much better than in pride where you had wrestlers going in to tackle a guy, he would move and the wrestler would fall out.

If Georges St pierre everr fought in Pride the amount of times he would fall out of the ring would be crazy. He would shoot for a takedown the other guy would fall back and they would go through the ropes, and then a restart.

[LeafsBlowPouch]

BJ talking trassssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

down with BJJJJJJJJ!!!!!!!!!

GRRR!!!

[Harbinger]

I think its great. I like that the cage allows a fight to keep going like a real fight. Its much more safer too. Its the same reason Mirko Cro Cop lost in the UFC. You had lay n pray in pride as well though. Gracie vs Sakuraba was a 1 1/2 hour fight!

but i think UFC has changed now where if you were on the ground and not doing enough they will stand you back up. I think its much better than in pride where you had wrestlers going in to tackle a guy, he would move and the wrestler would fall out.

If Georges St pierre everr fought in Pride the amount of times he would fall out of the ring would be crazy. He would shoot for a takedown the other guy would fall back and they would go through the ropes, and then a restart.

I honestly don't care at all about fighters safety to tell you the truth. If they are willing to get in the ring they should be willing to get hurt. Lay and Pray is the worst fighting ever. I prefer a good submission or a Knockout than watching two guys push each other into the Cage. Jamming a guys head into the corner and then just staring at him is the most useless fighting. Pull them to the center and Fight. Its not Ultimate Pushing. It's fighting. The other thing that was fantastic with Pride was the cards. You run away. Point against. two points against. Fight over and you lose.

[Pfizer]

Rather than elaborate openings and entrances that mirror pro-wrestling (this is why Dana is keeping away from ridiculous entrances, mark my words) I'd rather see the UFC spend some money on a real talented video producer. The guys who work in video production for the WWE are some of the best in the business with regards to making exciting videos to hype up matches/events and show opening graphics/credits. Rather than a stupid opening with a lame song featuring some random dude dressed as a faggy gladiator, they should get an industry professional, someone experienced in post production for sports, and create an entirely new image with their broadcasts. It would go a long way as far as enjoying the show goes.

I agree on why they are not using the elaborate openings. He wants to keep it like boxing as he was a amateur boxer before.

I still like the pride opening more though because it was like a martial arts competition.

UFC has some great design work on their websites and on UFC unleashed. Things are revamped there. When the VS screen comes up you have new graphics and the UFC logo is lighted and everything but for some reason on the actual broadcast they go back to the crappy 1990's flashing lighbulbs design... as if light bulbs flashing is some great design work that needs to be kept. Their VS screen is the old crappy version.

And Pride is what it is because they were formed by guys that owned wrestling i think.. Pancrease and such so they took this entertainment opening. I guess there are people on both sides.

It seems like they dont want to change the brand. EVen fighters have said that gladiator in the beginning sickens them. Its just so low budget.

There are guys in UFC that keep their openings but the UFC does not show them like Akhiro Gono

his entrance in pride:

his entrance in ufc. .. not the same effect hah.

I prefer the grande opening and hate the low budget ufc opening and some people want to see guys just walk into the octagon and no real opening to the show. The way i see it even if some UFCS suck which they do at least we saw some interesting opening even if the fight itself sucked.

[Pfizer]

I honestly don't care at all about fighters safety to tell you the truth. If they are willing to get in the ring they should be willing to get hurt. Lay and Pray is the worst fighting ever. I prefer a good submission or a Knockout than watching two guys push each other into the Cage. Jamming a guys head into the corner and then just staring at him is the most useless fighting. Pull them to the center and Fight. Its not Ultimate Pushing. It's fighting. The other thing that was fantastic with Pride was the cards. You run away. Point against. two points against. Fight over and you lose.

If a fighter in MMA dies you can pretty much kiss MMA ever coming to Canada goodbye or it ever getting real popular in America.

I think if someone dies PPV companies might refuse to carry it like they did in the early 90's when UFC was going bankrupt. They said it was too violent and the politicans were trying to get it banned.

[Gretzky's Mullet]

I honestly don't care at all about fighters safety to tell you the truth. If they are willing to get in the ring they should be willing to get hurt. Lay and Pray is the worst fighting ever. I prefer a good submission or a Knockout than watching two guys push each other into the Cage. Jamming a guys head into the corner and then just staring at him is the most useless fighting. Pull them to the center and Fight. Its not Ultimate Pushing. It's fighting. The other thing that was fantastic with Pride was the cards. You run away. Point against. two points against. Fight over and you lose.

UFC has employed a much more intelligent business strategy in order to spread the popularity of the sport. While it may not be as raw as it used to be, it's now no longer banned in most places and has reached legitimate sport status. It may take a sacrifice of some of the more extreme elements and brutality, but for proliferation of the sport, it was necessary.

EDIT: Plus as Pfizer said, a highly publicized death would hurt the UFC and MMA in general really badly. Safety is a wise move in that respect.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Gretzky's Mullet

[Harbinger]

If a fighter in MMA dies you can pretty much kiss MMA ever coming to Canada goodbye or it ever getting real popular in America.

I think if someone dies PPV companies might refuse to carry it like they did in the early 90's when UFC was going bankrupt. They said it was too violent and the politicans were trying to get it banned.

You are pointing out what is wrong with UFC again. They water down the fights so it will be acceptable to the WWE audience. And that is what it has become. The edgier WWE. Once again I don't care where the fights are fought. The PPV carriers had no problem putting pride on PPV during the same time that the UFC was on PPV. Fox sports in the states still puts on the old Pride fighting shows. It's not about violence with PPV it's about money. Don't get me wrong. There are some good fighters and some good fights in the UFC. But you can pretty much count them on one finger per show these days. The last show was good. But the star power for that show was the average show in Pride.

[Harbinger]

UFC has employed a much more intelligent business strategy in order to spread the popularity of the sport. While it may not be as raw as it used to be, it's now no longer banned in most places and has reached legitimate sport status. It may take a sacrifice of some of the more extreme elements and brutality, but for proliferation of the sport, it was necessary.

EDIT: Plus as Pfizer said, a highly publicized death would hurt the UFC and MMA in general really badly. Safety is a wise move in that respect.

The death of the UFC would probably be the best thing for the sport in reality. Their Contracts are one of the reason the Sport has very little credibility with MMA fans. Most UFC fans are not MMA fans. They are UFC fans. Proliferation hasn't made the product better. It has succeeded in making it worse.

[Pfizer]

You are pointing out what is wrong with UFC again. They water down the fights so it will be acceptable to the WWE audience. And that is what it has become. The edgier WWE. Once again I don't care where the fights are fought. The PPV carriers had no problem putting pride on PPV during the same time that the UFC was on PPV. Fox sports in the states still puts on the old Pride fighting shows. It's not about violence with PPV it's about money. Don't get me wrong. There are some good fighters and some good fights in the UFC. But you can pretty much count them on one finger per show these days. The last show was good. But the star power for that show was the average show in Pride.

I think the difference for me is that I care about the fighters. I dont want them to die for my entertainment. I want them to fight again like a real competition. Not like UFC 1 where everything goes including nut shots.

Just because no one died in Pride doesnt mean you can continue to do it. The NSAC is there for that very purpose so its not human cockfighting and is an actual sport. If Wanderlei killed someone with head stomp, it would have given pride a black mark and fox wouldnt even show it.

Nothing happened in the past. That doesnt mean it wont in the future.

The UFC crowd is nothing like the WWE. Its not an edgier WWE. There is a huge difference between FAKE fighting and REAL fighting.

The UFC waters down its shows so it can have more shows. The way pride ran its business is the reason it continued to lose money. Thats why pride is here no longer. Remember if you have a lot of stars in each show, you have to pay them a lot of money. If they all get PPV revenues then you are left with nothing. You can have 1 great UFC every 2 months or you can have 4 medium ufcs in 2 months. Pride business strategy was horrible.

If Pride ran their show like an actual business and not some circus side show they would still be here today. That on top of accusations the Yakuza (Japanese Gang) was helping run the show.

[Harbinger]

I think the difference for me is that I care about the fighters. I dont want them to die for my entertainment. I want them to fight again like a real competition. Not like UFC 1 where everything goes including nut shots.

Just because no one died in Pride doesnt mean you can continue to do it. The NSAC is there for that very purpose so its not human cockfighting and is an actual sport. If Wanderlei killed someone with head stomp, it would have given pride a black mark and fox wouldnt even show it.

Nothing happened in the past. That doesnt mean it wont in the future.

The UFC crowd is nothing like the WWE. Its not an edgier WWE. There is a huge difference between FAKE fighting and REAL fighting.

The UFC waters down its shows so it can have more shows. The way pride ran its business is the reason it continued to lose money. Thats why pride is here no longer. Remember if you have a lot of stars in each show, you have to pay them a lot of money. If they all get PPV revenues then you are left with nothing. You can have 1 great UFC every 2 months or you can have 4 medium ufcs in 2 months. Pride business strategy was horrible.

If Pride ran their show like an actual business and not some circus side show they would still be here today. That on top of accusations the Yakuza (Japanese Gang) was helping run the show.

Pride only got into financial trouble when Fuji Broadcasting pulled out of their Television deal Because of the Yakuza. I don't think you realize just how much money the UFC makes for a PPV and what it pays out.

The last show had a buy rate of 2.5 million. Let's conservatively say they make 20 dollars from 39 dollar ppv. And I am guessing that is low. and the HD is 49 bucks

2.5 million x 20 = 50 million bucks. They probably paid out less than 3 million to the fighters. They could afford better Cards. They just have so many people at the trough drinking the Kool aid it's ridiculous. even at a 500 000 buy rate they still make 10 million at 20 bucks. Pride was a television driven show, not PPV driven. Once they lost television they were sunk.

[Gretzky's Mullet]

The death of the UFC would probably be the best thing for the sport in reality. Their Contracts are one of the reason the Sport has very little credibility with MMA fans. Most UFC fans are not MMA fans. They are UFC fans. Proliferation hasn't made the product better. It has succeeded in making it worse.

For the sport as a purist sees it, I agree with you. But for the sport as a money making and viable venture in North America, I don't agree with you. For every person who misses the old days of brutality and ultra-violence and who's turned off by the current UFC, there are 10 who have embraced it, because with some rules it becomes a sport, as opposed to an underground circuit of spectacle.

I agree that some of the recent cards have been a bit less satisfying, but I don't think it's because of new UFC rules, as much as fights in some cases being stopped a bit early. The TKO seems to me to happen a bit too often.

I suppose it's a similar argument as there is in hockey, except in this case it's worked in opening MMA to a wider audience, even if it's been somewhat watered down. (Some of the rules added to hockey to try and sell it to disinterested Americans drive me crazy shootouts, puck over glass penalty, instigator, etc). So while by your definition the sport has gotten worse, by the definitions of a legion of UFC fans, it has gotten better.

[Gretzky's Mullet]

I think the difference for me is that I care about the fighters. I dont want them to die for my entertainment. I want them to fight again like a real competition. Not like UFC 1 where everything goes including nut shots.

Indeed. While I enjoy a good fight, I'm not a Roman who wants to see the losing gladiator get killed in the Coliseum.

[Harbinger]

For the sport as a purist sees it, I agree with you. But for the sport as a money making and viable venture in North America, I don't agree with you. For every person who misses the old days of brutality and ultra-violence and who's turned off by the current UFC, there are 10 who have embraced it, because with some rules it becomes a sport, as opposed to an underground circuit of spectacle.

I agree that some of the recent cards have been a bit less satisfying, but I don't think it's because of new UFC rules, as much as fights in some cases being stopped a bit early. The TKO seems to me to happen a bit too often.

I suppose it's a similar argument as there is in hockey, except in this case it's worked in opening MMA to a wider audience, even if it's been somewhat watered down. (Some of the rules added to hockey to try and sell it to disinterested Americans drive me crazy shootouts, puck over glass penalty, instigator, etc). So while by your definition the sport has gotten worse, by the definitions of a legion of UFC fans, it has gotten better.

What's good for the UFC is not what is good for MMA. The UFC is a business and not a Sport. The sport is MMA. UFC fans have no idea about MMA. They think the UFC is MMA. MMA needs to be set up like soccer is set up and not like how Hockey and Football and american sports are set up. Even Boxing is better set up than MMA, and boxing is a disgrace.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Harbinger

[Raoul Duke]

What's good for the UFC is not what is good for MMA. The UFC is a business and not a Sport. The sport is MMA. UFC fans have no idea about MMA. They think the UFC is MMA. MMA needs to be set up like soccer is set up and not like how Hockey and Football and american sports are set up. Even Boxing is better set up than MMA, and boxing is a disgrace.

Okay, skip. Been reading your jabbering for a while now. We get it, you liked Pride more. Time to move on.

[Harbinger]

Okay, skip. Been reading your jabbering for a while now. We get it, you liked Pride more. Time to move on.

Who are you again?? It must have slipped my mind.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Harbinger

[Raoul Duke]

Who are you again?? It must have slipped my mind.

Let's play a game... it's called "Internet Coolster". You just won.

Honestly though, knocking UFC fans saying we're basically clueless when it comes to MMA... in the UFC thread?? Seriously. Why? What makes you so high-and-mighty, the king of MMA knowledge?

[Harbinger]

Let's play a game... it's called "Internet Coolster". You just won.

Honestly though, knocking UFC fans saying we're basically clueless when it comes to MMA... in the UFC thread?? Seriously. Why? What makes you so high-and-mighty, the king of MMA knowledge?

Most UFC fans are clueless about MMA. That isn't a generality. That is just the way it is. You don't like it. That's too bad. Which are you? Are you a fan of UFC or are you a fan of MMA. I'm a fan of MMA which means I watch all sorts of mma. I don't follow the name of the promotion as much as I follow mma in general. I am not the king of MMA knowledge. But I do have something to offer. You may not agree or even appreciate it. There are very few posters in this thread who's opinions I care about. But at least some of them try and add something. Which are you here?